Hell or the lake of fire?

AlexDTX · Nov 1, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Are you equating the Lake of Fire to Hell, or confusing them?

I stated earlier in this thread that Hell is jail until the White Throne Judgement, and the Lake of Fire is the execution of the Judgement. The Isaiah verse is notable since it is on the path from Egypt to Assyria called the Highway of Holiness. It seems that this verse refers to a location in Idumea or thereabouts. As I said, Jesus made that statement about Gehenna repeatedly, where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched. It is clear to me that this verse in Isaiah and the Lord's words are connected.

Der Alte · Nov 1, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Yes, and then Der Alter goes on to do exactly that...from his POV. BTW, I did not read what I did not quote - to use the term he so often uses: RUBBISH. He is really good at quoting others in a creative way, oh, and such a way with color texts!

If I have misquoted or quoted anything out-of-context please feel free to try to correct me. I provide links to my sources for the sole purpose of avoiding accusations of misquoting or quoting out-of-context. I have yet to see any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the doctrine of the Trinity or any other Christian teaching was introduced by pagans.

Lazarus Short · Nov 1, 2016

Der Alter said:
If I have misquoted or quoted anything out-of-context please feel free to try to correct me. I provide links to my sources for the sole purpose of avoiding accusations of misquoting or quoting out-of-context. I have yet to see any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the doctrine of the Trinity or any other Christian teaching was introduced by pagans.

Der Alter, you seem to have missed the intent of my last post, but no matter. Let's move on to more important things. I have seen you, in post after post and thread after thread, quote Jewish scholars who maintained that a place to burn trash, refuse and dead bodies, called Gehenna, did not exist in Jesus' time. Did I get that right? I called it "one-note theology" in the past, but again, no matter.

Here's the thing: Jesus spoke of Gehenna several times in the sense of a place for trash burning and decomposition, and for the sake of argument, I will put aside my own views on that literal place NOT being Hell. Is that word "Gehenna" in the original New Testament Greek or not? Did Jesus say "Gehenna" or not? Do you prefer the opinions of Jewish scholars OR do you believe your Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ??

Der Alte · Nov 2, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Der Alter, you seem to have missed the intent of my last post, but no matter. Let's move on to more important things. I have seen you, in post after post and thread after thread, quote Jewish scholars who maintained that a place to burn trash, refuse and dead bodies, called Gehenna, did not exist in Jesus' time. Did I get that right? I called it "one-note theology" in the past, but again, no matter.

If we have a problem communicating it might be that you have not actually read my posts which you referred to. I did not post any evidence that "Jewish scholars who maintained that a place to burn trash, refuse and dead bodies, called Gehenna, did not exist in Jesus' time." I posted irrefutable, credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending fiery punishment and they called it both sheol and Gehinnom.
.....The evidence you seem to be referring to are a number of recent studies which found there is no archaeological or documentary evidence showing that the Gehinnom valley was ever used as "a place for burning trash or dead bodies.

Here's the thing: Jesus spoke of Gehenna several times in the sense of a place for trash burning and decomposition,

No Jesus did not! If you can, please show me any verse where Jesus specifically identified Gehenna as "a place for trash burning and decomposition [of dead bodies]?" It does not exist! That is internet pseudo information.

and for the sake of argument, I will put aside my own views on that literal place NOT being Hell. Is that word "Gehenna" in the original New Testament Greek or not? Did Jesus say "Gehenna" or not?

Illogical, irrelevant straw man argument. I have never said that the word Gehenna does not occur in the NT and that Jesus did not use the word. Perhaps you might try actually reading and addressing what I say instead of straw man arguments.
I doubt you will put aside any of your assumptions/presuppositions regardless what evidence is presented.

Do you prefer the opinions of Jewish scholars OR do you believe your Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ??

I have never questioned anything Jesus said and nothing I have posted ever contradicts anything Jesus said. There is no evidence anywhere; OT, NT, ancient writings, archaeological studies which shows that Gehenna was ever used as a burning trash dump or place for disposing of bodies. No, zero, none! FYI there is evidence that another place near Jerusalem was used for a trash dump etc.

vinsight4u · Nov 2, 2016

Hillsage · Nov 2, 2016

vinsight4u said:
The land of Edom will become burning pitch and brimstone.
All nations are warned of this. All of the people there will be whom
God has indignation against forever.
Look at the end of Isasiah 66. The just will be abhorred looking at wicked men
in the lake of fire on the new earth. Take that word...abhorred...and read Daniel 12:2. Contempt is the same as abhor. The wicked will rise to not just
shame, but everlasting abhorring.

DAN 12:2 'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches - to abhorrence age-during.

vinsight4u · Nov 2, 2016

vinsight4u · Nov 2, 2016

Lazarus Short · Nov 2, 2016

Laz asked:
"...and for the sake of argument, I will put aside my own views on that literal place NOT being Hell. Is that word "Gehenna" in the original New Testament Greek or not? Did Jesus say "Gehenna" or not?"

Der Alter said:
Illogical, irrelevant straw man argument. I have never said that the word Gehenna does not occur in the NT and that Jesus did not use the word. Perhaps you might try actually reading and addressing what I say instead of straw man arguments.
I doubt you will put aside any of your assumptions/presuppositions regardless what evidence is presented.

My dear Der Alter, I think you are a master back-pedaler, but I am going to keep notes on your posts from now on. As for my quoted excerpt above, your response is puzzling. "Illogical, irrelevant straw man argument." That was your comment, and as usual, you put your conclusion first, when it should be a CONCLUSION. Its just a clever way to step up and squelch further discussion. So tell me, which part was the comment addressed to - was it my putting aside my on views for the sake of argument? Putting aside your own views is hardly an argument. Or, was it my two questions? How is a question illogical, or an irrelevant straw man argument? A question is not an argument! You will never give me a straight answer to a question, nor will you ever justify your epithets. I will not give you further evidence, as you requested.

Lazarus Short · Nov 2, 2016

Zephaniah 3:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

[The result? If you guessed Hell, you are wrong.]

9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent.

com7fy8 · Nov 2, 2016

eartheart said:
our God is a consuming fire

"For our God is a consuming fire."

I consider it possible that God is the fire of hell. But only ones of a trashy (selfish) nature can burn in this fire. But we in God's love are warmed, even protected from fear > 1 John 4:18 < God is our fire who can burn Satan and His fear and its torment from us.

eartheart said:
thus my former separation from Lord was in a sense a PART of the eternal lake of fire.

I offer that was not the "part". It was a sample. And if you had continued in that, you would have reaped so much more > Galatians 6:7-8.

eartheart said:
What are your views on hell and death being tossed into the eternal lake of fire when Christ returns?

Different people can use the term "hell" to mean the "grave"; or they can mean the place of torment of sinners while they wait for their day of judgment; and ones saying "hell" can mean the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone. So, it is good to communicate with each person and discover what each one means

vinsight4u · Nov 2, 2016

Der Alte · Nov 2, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Laz asked:
"...and for the sake of argument, I will put aside my own views on that literal place NOT being Hell. Is that word "Gehenna" in the original New Testament Greek or not? Did Jesus say "Gehenna" or not?"
My dear Der Alter, I think you are a master back-pedaler, but I am going to keep notes on your posts from now on. As for my quoted excerpt above, your response is puzzling. "Illogical, irrelevant straw man argument." That was your comment, and as usual, you put your conclusion first, when it should be a CONCLUSION. Its just a clever way to step up and squelch further discussion. So tell me, which part was the comment addressed to - was it my putting aside my on views for the sake of argument? Putting aside your own views is hardly an argument. Or, was it my two questions? How is a question illogical, or an irrelevant straw man argument? A question is not an argument! You will never give me a straight answer to a question, nor will you ever justify your epithets. I will not give you further evidence, as you requested.

Had you actually read my post, which you blew off as "one note theology" or some such, you would have seen that I clearly quoted Jesus using the word Gehenna and Jewish sources showing that because of its bloody history Gehinnom soon became the figurative name of hell. As I suspected you are either unwilling or unable to support any of your arguments. And FYI a question especially a baiting question can be an argument.

Hillsage · Nov 2, 2016

vinsight4u said:
Use the Kjv and search the word ...indignation. Why would God be angry forever against people that lived wickedly if someday they would not exist as you seem to think?

Actually, the first 'indignation' in the search was against the land of Israel.
The second indignation was against ISRAEL who was being whipping a heathen king UNTIL the king sacrificed his heathen son and turned the battle AGAINST Israel!!! Do you have 'true' spiritual insight as to what that is even all about?
The third indignation was against the Jews .
The fourth indignation was against Mordacai.
The fifth indignation was against JOB.
The sixth indignation was a request against men, by a man.

I'm sorry, but with 35 more to go, why don't you do the word search and make your point. This all falls in line with my 'how I seem to think' perfectly.

The is clear..they hath no inheritance in the kingdom. Some go to everlasting life...the rest to everlasting punishment.
Their worm will not die.

Do you know the difference between the kingdom that is here on earth and going to heaven in the hereafter.

The worm is a maggot and a maggot eats DEAD flesh and it returns to the dust from which it came. That's the price for sin which I talked about earlier.

Please go back#106 post and refute the translation which says "age-during" Young's Literal Translation. It also 'never' translates the Greek into the word 'eternal' concerning punishment, hell....never, ever. Don't want your opinion either, give me a reputable source of refutation. And if you can, then we'll go to the next translation and the next translation which also agree with Young's. But we'll only deal with them if you're really seeking 'the truth'. If you're only seeking to defend where you're at, you'll probably do what you did in your answer to post 106.

vinsight4u · Nov 2, 2016

vinsight4u · Nov 2, 2016

Hillsage · Nov 3, 2016

vinsight4u said:
As you looked at the verses about indignation, did you see a length of time for
them to last? Next, check verses about indignation against the people of Edom.
Idumea ....Jordan seems to be the area for the future lake of fire. Malachi 1 and Isaiah
34. The end of Isaiah 66 is on the new earth and the wicked men that their worm dieth
not are being abhorred.

I never got to any 'length of time verses' but if I did I'm sure that the point you are evading is the answer I'll find. Translations protecting orthodoxy will say eternal and translations protecting the laws of grammar will say age-during.

Reading your Psalm verse in context and you'll see that it is simply saying 'never see the light' before they die/perish in this life. And the Proverbs verse says God drives away the wicked because of their wickedness. Wickedness which will be dealt with in the ages to come. This is consistent with God loves sinners and hates sin. You do still sin right? That's the only reason why you/I 'have hope in death' the saving fires of judgment that we will also go through AS BELIEVERS (1Co 3).

PSA 49:19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. 20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

PRO 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.

1CO 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Sammy-San · Jan 21, 2017

AlexDTX said:
No, Hell and the Lake of Fire are two different things. Hell is jail, the Lake of Fire is execution. God will not put anyone into the Lake of Fire until after they have been judged and proven guilty at the White Throne Judgement. Once that is done for everyone who rejects the salvation freely given to all who will accept it, then the jail will be tossed into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his demons and the people who chose Satan over Jesus.

The two have become synonyms because after the Resurrection of our Lord, no believer went to Hell but to Heaven. So only all who die without Christ will be retained in Hell reserved for the White Throne Judgement and the Lake of Fire.

What this means is that before Jesus, everyone went to Hell. But those who died in faith of the coming Messiah were released when Jesus descended into Hell to set the captives free when he proclaimed the good news that redemption had been fulfilled.

THE MULTITUDE OF EVIL ANGELS: CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE | Paw Creek Ministries

The Lake of Fire is simply an extension of Hell that we see throughout the Bible.

Sammy-San · May 4, 2017

Lazarus Short said:
The Author of the Bible, which I sometimes call a Reference Standard of Truth, told us not to add to or take away from the words of that Book.

Baxter adds many words to the narrative, putting words into the mouth of Jesus, words He never said, portraying Him as a prison warden, when He stated that He came to save us, and describing a fantasy Hell, which has no basis in the Bible. Nothing in her book is verifiable. She does do a bit better with her fantasy Hell than Dante, for she does take out the overt pagan elements. Covertly, it is still pagan. "Hell" is a word foreign to the Bible. My Oxford English Dictionary tells me it first appeared in the English language ~825 AD. This word is translated from four Hebrew and Greek words:

Sheol - the realm of the dead

Gehenna - a real place in the real world

Hades - the realm of the dead, but with pagan overtones

Tartarus - used once, hardly counts.

However, we have from the pagan beliefs of ancient northern Europe, Hel or Helheim (house of Hel). Hel was their goddess or ogress of the underworld, and that underworld was also called Hel. Am I really reaching too far if I say that Hell came from Hel? Conversely, Hel is pagan, but Hell is Christian? Is anyone going to tell me with a straight face that pagans became Christians and did NOT bring along some theological baggage? Given the Bible's complete failure to describe such a place, except for an occasional insertion of the word "Hell" mis-translated from one of the four words above, Hell should join a host of other hoary mythical concepts.

Would you argue if somebody used the lake of fire and hell as synonyms, meaning practically the same?

Also, why did one of the stories in Mary Baxter's book match the story of a real life actress-to make her look credible?

Sammy-San · May 4, 2017

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Hell or the lake of fire?

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