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Hell no

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by primarymay, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Well, of course you feel that way. That's the point.
     
  2. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    As the Giver of Life, God has the right also to be the Taker of it. In fact, God has determined the end of each of us. And when our time here on earth is up, we will give an account to Him of the life He gave us.

    God is not obliged in the least to give any of us a long earthly life. If He decides that the life He has made should end its temporal existence quickly, well, that's entirely His prerogative.
     
  3. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Neither do I worship a god who has the power to put an end to world hunger, but watches people starve.
     
  4. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    We have the power to end world hunger. God has put the means to end all sorts of evil within our grasp but we choose not to.

    God does not prevent all hunger but He has provided for many who are in dire need. One day, though, He will bring all pain, and sorrow, and evil in this world to an end. Are you ready for that day?

    God has purposes and plans that we cannot even begin to understand. While emotionally it is not very satisfying to recognize this, God uses even our pain and suffering to achieve His good aims.

    Life is difficult. It is filled with pain and heartache. When a man turns his back on God he is left to face the inevitable trials of life on his own. Instead of the comfort of knowing God has good purposes He is bringing to pass through his hurt, the man who has rejected God must see his pain as purely pointless, achieving no good end. Instead of having the fellowship of God to encourage and support him in tragedy and sickness, the man who has spurned his Creator walks alone in the darkness of life's troubles. So, you may refuse to worship God, thinking Him evil because He does not act in just the way you think He ought to, but this only leaves you resentful and alone. God is not affected in the least by your rebellion. He remains perfect in character and condition whatever fist-shaking at Him you do.
     
  5. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    One of my favorite songs...

    Do Something
    Matthew West

    I woke up this morning
    Saw a world full of trouble now, thought
    How’d we ever get so far down, and
    How’s it ever gonna turn around
    So I turned my eyes to Heaven
    I thought, “God, why don’t You do something?”
    Well, I just couldn’t bear the thought of
    People living in poverty
    Children sold into slavery
    The thought disgusted me
    So, I shook my fist at Heaven
    Said, “God, why don’t You do something?”
    He said, “I did, yeah, I created you”
     
  6. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Neither do I worship a god who'd curse his own people by putting afflictions on them.
     
  7. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Even I've done more than this god.
     
  8. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Why did God do this? My parents put "afflictions" upon me as a child when I misbehaved, not to be miserable, but to teach me courtesy, respect, consideration for others, integrity, honesty, etc. They were training up a responsible, mature, ethical/moral adult. It wasn't always pleasant for me as they did so, but I can't fault the result. Same with God. He doesn't need our obedience. He gives us rules to follow for our sake, to bless and protect us, and to make us ethical, moral people. When we don't follow His rules, He takes His own in hand and afflicts them that they might be made better. But He does so entirely for their sake, not His. King David explains:

    Psalms 119:71
    71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.
     
  9. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    All this comes down to is what you believe, no evidence, just what you believe. Can someone, anyone, accept these views based on your belief alone? You can't really expect me to do that.

    That would be very dangerous, it is like driving over a broken bridge based solely on your belief that the bridge won't fall. You are asking too much, you all are. You can't possibly not feel some shame when you presume to talk for the living creator, you have no idea who or what your really representing. But you continue to talk for what you think you know, as if the creator of the entire universe needs you.
     
  10. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Sure there's evidence. Plenty of it. Here are some websites full of evidence for God:

    www.reasonablefaith.org
    www.crossexamined.org
    www.coldcasechristianity.com
    www.str.org
    www.rzim.org

    The Bible says that the reason, at bottom, that people reject God has nothing to do with evidence for Him, but with knowing God will judge and condemn their sin.

    John 3:19-20
    19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.


    My first-hand experience of God is what it is. You can accept it, or not. But your unwillingness to accept what my experience is doesn't make my experience null and void. I'd no more believe that than I would that my experience of my wife is false simply because someone rejects my experience of her. Both my experience of God and my wife are properly basic beliefs that, because of their self-evident character, are as undeniable as the external physical reality in which I exist.

    In any case, I can't expect you to turn to God merely on the strength of my comments to you. God can't be known this way; He can't be found this way. God is a Person with whom you must meet directly. He must draw you and give you a personal experience of Himself. But God does this often only when we are willing to know Him.

    James 4:8
    8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you...


    A better analogy would be that I live on the bridge, I drive all over it every day, and I know that while it may look to you like it's broken, the reality is that it is more solid and sure than anything else. I experience God daily. He transforms my desires and character, convicts me of sin, empowers me to change, comforts me in times of pain, and fear, and loss, provides for my needs, and so on. No, the "bridge" is not broken; it is the very best place you can be.


    No more than you are when you assert that the God with whom I interact every day is an illusion and I ought to give up thinking He exists!

    Everything I've said about God you can find in His word, the Bible, and/or evident in Creation, and/or in the deductions of sound reasoning. I feel not the slightest shame in asserting the things these realms of knowledge give me good grounds to assert about God. You are attempting to do the same. You are presuming to tell me that my knowledge of God is bogus and that your antagonistic perspective on Him is superior. You haven't yet given me any good grounds to forsake my theism and embrace your anti-theism, however.

    I have never asserted that God needs me. In fact, I have made it clear in my comments to you that He doesn't need any of us. He's perfect which means that He has no needs and that He cannot be improved or diminished by anything. We need Him, though. Very much. We can't do without Him. Sooner or later you will come to understand this. Sooner, I hope, than later. It is possible to come too late to a knowledge of God.

    Hebrews 9:27
    27...it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
     
  11. Bible Believing Gentiles

    Bible Believing Gentiles New Member

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    I don't even want to read the responses because I've learned I can't trust them to read the Bible correctly and/or say it to where a regular person can understand it without being judgemental

    If you are implying that Hell doesn't exist because it isn't fair for someone to be there, I will paint a picture for you:

    Let's imagine that you are God, and you made the same exact decisions that the God of the Bible made, since it claims Him to be Holy.

    You existed as the only thing that exists. An invisible God mind. You needed nothing, you wanted for nothing. But you desired a people that could recognize your Supreme Holiness and share in it. So you made a world, some people and animals for them, and servants for yourself in a glorified likeness of that creation humans and animals alike, that could move in and out of their own free will. Now these are born with the knowledge of both good and evil, giving them the power to choose. The choice is easy for most. They can see your Holiness with physical eyes, so when they chose to ignore your laws, you had to make a prison for them. You made them so that they cannot die, so it has to be a place that lasts forever. You also made them supernatural in consideration to the rest of creation, so the torment has to be supernatural.

    Now some of these celestial beings got the idea to corrupt the rest of creation, which is us, because naturally sin has to go to this prison .... so we have a catch 22. You made a creation to be your family, but now they all have to go to this prison because now that they know about sin, they can't stop.

    You have a problem because you need a righteous man, all the way though who both knows about sin and can always 100% of the time resist temptation. You need this man because logically only a man could ever give account for his own people, and say look: They did wrong, that's true. But look at me, I'm as Holy as you are, and I'm a man. There is hope for us. Please forgive them.

    Being merciful, you would have to accept this.

    The next problem, is that there is not a man of such stature to be found anywhere in History, since you looked forward in time an infinite amount of years. So you get the idea, in the very beginning since you know everything, that your image has to become a man. It has been proven that your creation cannot complete this task even in it's most simplest of forms.

    So you choose a people based on the bloodline of the most righteous man you can find, bide your time, and boom you make your appearance.

    New problem because of free will: Your people stupidly reject you to the point of murder. You committed to their having free will from the beginning, so being righteous, you can't stop them from killing you. But knowing this would happen, it became part of your plan.

    You can also manifest as a moving, Living Spirit. And when your flesh and blood image had to give up this spirit because he died, a cosmic paradox was created.

    A man had died that never sinned. Death is the wage of sin, basically you get paid the sum of hell for your sinful work. Life is the wage of righteousness, eternal life, just like your invisible mind. This paradox gave you the Lawful Right to make a new rule about death. Any man who has not sinned, but dies also because of circumstance, must be raised from the dead and given a new body that cannot be harmed because he didn't deserve to die.

    And now that you have a man, who is also YOU, he not only has the right to beg the forgiveness of sins for all mankind, but he also has the right to sit on the throne of the world, as the Lord God Almighty. And since you're invisible anyway, because were you to be visible in your true form, anyone who saw you would be totally annihilated from the timeline.... it pleases you to have a righteous man version of yourself as your image to be the head of your family.

    It doesn't matter who you are or where you're from, if you're of our species, and you believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who died for sins and resurrected, and you hate sinning because it destroys the world and you want to change your mind but don't know how.... Just say that all out loud genuinely and see what happens to you
     
  12. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Thinking about Jesus won't save you, sorry, but it won't.

    1 Timothy 4:16
     
  13. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Life is not an emergency.
     
  14. Bible Believing Gentiles

    Bible Believing Gentiles New Member

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    What is "your teaching" ?

    1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
     
  15. Bible Believing Gentiles

    Bible Believing Gentiles New Member

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    better still a few verses before that very own you quoted tells you what you're going to be holding onto and teaching

    1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
    1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
     
  16. Bible Believing Gentiles

    Bible Believing Gentiles New Member

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  17. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    For those who can expect to face God as their Judge rather than their Heavenly Father, life is very much an emergency! A very dire one!
     
  18. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    And then why shouldn't I find people who proliferate such ideas, and kill them.

    Yes, why shouldn't I?
     
  19. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    It's time for me to go, I've got much work to do.
     
  20. Bible Believing Gentiles

    Bible Believing Gentiles New Member

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    I have no idea what group of people you mean
     
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