Hell is a correctional jail

[Zecryphon]

The church cannot handle the truth because they are carnal; the churches in Revelations are a perfect example of what the little c church is today. I do not reject the verse you give me; i reject the spirit of condemnation that is behind them. I have given you plenty of Biblical support;but your God has no mercy; just judgment and condemnation and damnation. Funny there is a fourth word which comes from the same word (Gk)Krisis) for judgment,damnation and condemnation; the word is probation. Any of these words can be interchanged; but that would be the last thing an eternalhellist would do. How do you know what the early church in brassed; were you there. All the information you have given me is from the traditions of religion.

"How do you know what the early church in brassed; were you there."

How do you know God is going to let anyone out of Hell? Were you there when He decided what to do with sinners?

 

[LJSGM]

The literal is carnal; it comes from babes and God uses the literal just like He uses Baby lon which is a golden cup in the hands of the Lord.
What is spiritual? What are spiritual things? What are treasures in heaven? What are the true riches? Let me simplify this for you. If sinners can have it or do it without God — it’s not spiritual! Someone says, “I’m spiritual because I fast.” Witches fast! Another says, “I’m spiritual because I prosper and give vast sums of money to this ministry and that.” Indeed! Mafia king-pins also prosper and give large amounts of money to all kinds of worthy causes that help and bless people, and the good they do is often more than the churches do with their money. You see, precious friend of mine, human nature is wont to equate spirituality with what we do, or with what we possess. No! A thousand times no!
Even the term “spiritual” indicates that it requires the power and ability of the SPIRIT, or that it is an expression of the SPIRIT. Therefore, when we walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit, what flows out of us is a dispensation of the life and glory and power and wisdom and nature and will of God Himself — that is spiritual! Sinners can’t do that! The carnal mind can’t produce that! The fleshly nature can’t generate that! Self-effort is eternally and completely unable to perform that! Answered prayer — that’s spiritual. Deliverance and transformation — that’s spiritual. Speaking the words of God — that’s spiritual. Loving your enemies — that’s spiritual. Blessing them that curse you — that’s spiritual. The peace that passeth understanding — that’s spiritual. Laying down your life for creation — that’s spiritual. Putting on the mind of Christ — that’s spiritual. Being led by the Spirit of God — that’s spiritual. Money can’t buy these things. The natural man can’t mimic these things. These are the true riches!
What is spiritual to you; what is spiritual to me is hearing not what tradition has says but what the spirit of truth is saying with in me.
Moses walked up on the mount and when he returned the shekinah glory of God shine on His face. When Moses went up that mountain of God; some of his friends followed so far; most of them sat at the bottom of the mountain.
Take Joseph a type of Christ; oh I have heard that so often in religious cycles and I believe it is true. But what about Benjamin?

and yet, you believe that no one but you sees these things?

I know what spiritual is, but I do not nullify the literal things (I do not call them carnal as you so call it) because I see a spiritual meaning behind something. God is great and I'm amazed everytime by how he can do such a thing such as give double meanings. God wants even the babies to come into his grace, and it is the first stepping stone, and is still important. The literal meaning of scriptures of the gospel is: Jesus literally died for our sins so that we could literally live with new flesh bodies that are not corrupted. Of course We also spiritually die (to ourselves), so that we can spiritually live and become BORN AGAIN. Just one example.

I am amazed that you seem to think that people have never seen or understand the spiritual things that you speak of. The difference is that most do not misapply them.

 

[LJSGM]

Hell is hardly unreasonable. But believe what you will, it makes no difference to me.

I never said hell was unreasonable, I said that being tortured forever is unreasonable. Hell (gehenna) is a fire that comsumes completely.

Deuteronomy 4:24

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

 

[Tavita]

Deuteronomy 4:24

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

But what is it He consumes? What do you define as His adversaries or enemies?

 

[LJSGM]

But what is it He consumes? What do you define as His adversaries or enemies?

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[d] and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness. 17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

 

[Zecryphon]

I never said hell was unreasonable, I said that being tortured forever is unreasonable. Hell (gehenna) is a fire that comsumes completely.

Deuteronomy 4:24

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

"I never said hell was unreasonable, I said that being tortured forever is unreasonable. Hell (gehenna) is a fire that comsumes completely."

Didn't we already discuss this? Isn't Gehenna a garbage dump near Jerusalem, where they burned garbage? Why should I take Gehenna to mean Hell? Isn't that an example of people reading their own understanding into the text? The word itself isn't even found in all translations of the Bible, most versions use Hell, some use Hades, which was a Greek conceptualization of the underworld. I see no reason to take Gehenna to mean Hell, especially if we're talking about eternal suffering, since the Bible tells us that death and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire on the last day and destroyed.

 

[Ben12]

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Is this the scripture you're referring to? I see nothing here about no mercy after death. Here I see mercy. The mercy of going through His cleansing and restorative FIRE, HIS fire that purges of dross to bring forth gold. What is dross but the iniquity within? Do you think going through the fire will be a piece of cake? I am so thankful, as we all should be, that God deals with the dross within us, now.. if we will co-operate with Him. I would rather He dealt with me now, no matter how PAINFUL it can be, than to go through THAT fire.

Can you define exactly who are His adversaries?




Not true. Church history shows that the concept of universalism was taught in most of the major theology schools in the very beginning of the early Church...

From Wikipedia...

"In Christianity, Universalism refers to the belief that all humans will be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to a harmony in God's kingdom. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels (not all CU agree to this). Universalism was a fairly commonly held view among theologians in early Christianity: In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Cesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost.[1]. The two major theologians opposing it were Tertullian and Augustine.[citation needed] In later centuries, Universalism has become very much a minority position in the major branches of Christianity, though it has a long history of prominent adherents."

• John the Apostle (John 4:42)
• The Didascalia (the Catechetical school of Alexandria)
• Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria
• Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria
• Origen, greatest scholar of the early church
• Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria
• Didymus
• Ambrose, Bishop
• Ephraim
• Chrysostum
• Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop
• Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council
• Titus, Bishop of Bostra

These are a sample of the Christian Church in the first three hundred years.

Here is a list of well known people since the beginning. Included are three of your Presidents who if they were not full UC were supportive of it... Abraham Lincoln, Benjamin Franklin, and George Washington. Other names, like the Bronte sisters, William Wallace (Braveheart), Robert and Elizabeth Browning, and a modern theologian and translator, William Barclay..

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist.html

Amen

 

[Ben12]

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[d] and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness. 17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Amen, Amen[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please let us look at who the false teachers are not according to your religious bias but according to the Bible and the original language. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:1 [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations , destruction, perish etc. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]damn[/FONT][FONT=&quot]able heresies, (or heresies of damnation/judgement)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eternal hell and torment comes are the Doctrines of damnations not salvation for all [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Ben12]

and yet, you believe that no one but you sees these things?

I know what spiritual is, but I do not nullify the literal things (I do not call them carnal as you so call it) because I see a spiritual meaning behind something. God is great and I'm amazed everytime by how he can do such a thing such as give double meanings. God wants even the babies to come into his grace, and it is the first stepping stone, and is still important. The literal meaning of scriptures of the gospel is: Jesus literally died for our sins so that we could literally live with new flesh bodies that are not corrupted. Of course We also spiritually die (to ourselves), so that we can spiritually live and become BORN AGAIN. Just one example.

I am amazed that you seem to think that people have never seen or understand the spiritual things that you speak of. The difference is that most do not misapply them.

A lot of people believe and see these things including people on this FORUM; remember the narrow gate.

No God does not give something a double meaning; religion and tradition give it the shallow meaning (milk not meaty); (Literal/carnal not spiritual); (Letter that killeth-not Spiritual revelation); is not spiritual; very deep, wide; just like the song. I do not believe the vast majority of God’s people reach beyond the carnal, the earthy. Ask your brothers and sister in the Lord if the Bible has any hidden meaning; most have no clue. Notice it was God who sent the deception:

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
(EMTV) And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie,
(ESV) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(Geneva) And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleave lies,
(GNB) And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe what is false.
(GW) That's why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.
(ISV) For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
(JPS)
(KJ2000) And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVA) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVR) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(LITV) And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
(LONT) For this cause, God will send them strong delusion, that they may believe a lie;
(MKJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
(Murdock) Therefore God will send upon them the operation of deception, that they may believe a lie;
(RYLT-NT) and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
(The Scriptures '98+)And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,1Footnote: 1Eze. 20:25, John 9:39, John 12:40, Acts 7:42, Rom. 1:24-28.
(Webster) And for this cause God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(WNT) And for this reason God sends them a misleading influence that they may believe the lie;

 

[Ben12]

"How do you know what the early church in brassed; were you there."

How do you know God is going to let anyone out of Hell? Were you there when He decided what to do with sinners?

As I said I do not even believe in the pagan word hell. I do believe what the original language says about hades, Sheol, Tartarus, and Gehenna.

 

[LJSGM]

"I never said hell was unreasonable, I said that being tortured forever is unreasonable. Hell (gehenna) is a fire that comsumes completely."

Didn't we already discuss this? Isn't Gehenna a garbage dump near Jerusalem, where they burned garbage? Why should I take Gehenna to mean Hell? Isn't that an example of people reading their own understanding into the text? The word itself isn't even found in all translations of the Bible, most versions use Hell, some use Hades, which was a Greek conceptualization of the underworld. I see no reason to take Gehenna to mean Hell, especially if we're talking about eternal suffering, since the Bible tells us that death and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire on the last day and destroyed.

Mark 9

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[a] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

Gehenna was just a decriptive word in order to get his meaning across, but he also includes "their worm does not die, ect as a part of trying to make us understand.

what does the worm point to but the grave? This death will be everlasting.

Why does it say that the fire is not quenched? Or the fire does not go out. It does NOT say that people are not consumed in it though.

The problem is translation. interpreters of the NIV, ect, use the word Hell for both gehenna and hades, not destingishing between the two, look into it by looking up hell in the strong's concordance.

 

[Ben12]

Mark 9

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[a] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

Gehenna was just a decriptive word in order to get his meaning across, but he also includes "their worm does not die, ect as a part of trying to make us understand.

what does the worm point to but the grave? This death will be everlasting.

Why does it say that the fire is not quenched? Or the fire does not go out. It does NOT say that people are not consumed in it though.

The problem is translation. interpreters of the NIV, ect, use the word Hell for both gehenna and hades, not destingishing between the two, look into it by looking up hell in the strong's concordance.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT].


[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ge-hen-na [/FONT][FONT=&quot](gi hen, g-) [[LL (Ec) < Gr Geenna, hell < Heb gey hinom, where the kings Ahaz and Manasseh were said to have sacrificed their sons to Moloch]] the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]valley[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hinnom[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (see below), near [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jerusalem[/FONT][FONT=&quot], where refuse was burned in Biblical times [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Verse with Gehenna in them 12 or 13 results: You also better understand that fire is a type of God&#8217;s power to change not annihilation. Search the Bible and see that God uses fire to change&#8217; to lead and to destroy man&#8217;s flesh; but the spirit of man still belongs to God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Read below the twelve verses on Geenna note the writer is always speaking to his [/FONT][FONT=&quot]brother it never mentioned the sinner or the heathen[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. 21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Rica' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell (Ge-hen-na). [/FONT]

 

[LJSGM]

also, debating two things... Gehenna was a garbage dump on fire. How can anyone purify garbage? Ever heard of the "garbage goes in, garbage comes out" theory? My profession uses this one a lot. Garbage by definition are things that people do not want and can not use any longer, and are destroyed. Why would Jesus use this definition of hell?

 

[LJSGM]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Amen, Amen[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please let us look at who the false teachers are not according to your religious bias but according to the Bible and the original language. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:1 [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Strong&#8217;s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations , destruction, perish etc. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]damn[/FONT][FONT=&quot]able heresies, (or heresies of damnation/judgement)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eternal hell and torment comes are the Doctrines of damnations not salvation for all [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

strange translation there friend, I would have interpreted as heresy that brings destruction.

 

[Tavita]

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them&#8212;bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)&#8212; 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[d] and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed&#8212;an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey&#8212;a beast without speech&#8212;who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness. 17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity&#8212;for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

But what is 'behind' these false teachers and their teachings? Aren't God's enemies, and ours, the adversary and his hordes, our flesh, the systems of the world brought into being through the rulers, principalites, etc .?

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

You must look beyond the man. He is but a puppet in the adversaries hands, and sold into sin. Man is the puppet that brings the damnable heresies.. but he will still be held accountable for his part in those heresies and false teachings.

 

[Zecryphon]

Mark 9

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[a] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

Gehenna was just a decriptive word in order to get his meaning across, but he also includes "their worm does not die, ect as a part of trying to make us understand.

what does the worm point to but the grave? This death will be everlasting.

Why does it say that the fire is not quenched? Or the fire does not go out. It does NOT say that people are not consumed in it though.

The problem is translation. interpreters of the NIV, ect, use the word Hell for both gehenna and hades, not destingishing between the two, look into it by looking up hell in the strong's concordance.

To understand what the worm points to, I think we should look up the word in the original language. I don't have the resources to do that, yet. As for the NIV, I tend to use it less and less these days. I prefer the ESV. Now if my church would just get with the program! LOL They'll eventually have to switch though as the LCMS is adopting the ESV in place of the NIV for it's resources and teaching materials.

 

[james415]

God in His purpose

I agree.

God reveals bits of truth to each of us on His time line and for His purpose. For some, the truth is revealed much sooner than for others. But I believe even those with closed eyes are being used by God for good purposes. Romans 9 is just one of the reasons I believe all men will be saved in the end.
If believing all men will be saved by Jesus Christ is what a Christian Universalist is then I guess that is what I am.

Romans 9:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath&#8212;prepared for destruction?
23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory&#8212;
24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'

 

[Nadiine]

Mark 9

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[a] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

Gehenna was just a decriptive word in order to get his meaning across, but he also includes "their worm does not die, ect as a part of trying to make us understand.

what does the worm point to but the grave? This death will be everlasting.

Why does it say that the fire is not quenched? Or the fire does not go out. It does NOT say that people are not consumed in it though.

The problem is translation. interpreters of the NIV, ect, use the word Hell for both gehenna and hades, not destingishing between the two, look into it by looking up hell in the strong's concordance.

Death and HELL, are thrown into the lake of fire that doesn't die out, it continues on.
Revelation is very clear.
Satan & his false prophet will be there consciously aware forever.

As I see it people are reading in alot of things and not exactly accepting what it plainly describes within their contexts.
We're supposed to use ALL the verses to form ONE truth - not ignore one to embrace another. (and despite what we think is even plausible).
Ben mentions that God is more POWERFUL than sin - so I guess that's to mean that God WILL make an utter cessation of all sin?
Again, READING IN what isn't taught. Just becuz God HAS mercy and God HAS love and God IS powerful, DOESN'T MEAN GOD DIDN'T ESTABLISH THINGS IN THE WAY HE DID.

Christ COULD HAVE done alot things, but He chose to do it this way. God wills that none of us sin either- but He knew it would happen and knows it will continue.
People keep injecting what THEY think it should be, what THEY think mercy is, and what THEY think love is, instead of letting the bible teach them how God set this all up.
Since God IS love, let GOD tell you what true love is - even if that includes a soul condemned eternally. Instead, wrap your head around His information rather than use human logic to decide what love is.

Death and sin aren't ever "done away with", they are CONTAINED like nuclear waste in a waste dump.
Sin isn't something that's tangible - sin is a choice to defy what God commands and be against all that is righteous; how does God get RID of a person's WILL to choose evil?
We're treating sin like it's literal & tangible "garbage" that can be burnt up & go away.
But sin is in the WILL of people who reject God. A heart condition.
Those people and their will to stay in sin (rejecting God) goes with them to be contained far away from where the Saints will be who chose God's righteousness and who suffered to obey God; putting their flesh to death.
Satan doesn't "TURN" from his evil & malice in the lake of fire, and neither will the people in it.
like the garbage at Gehenna.
It's contained.

I'm not arguing annihilationism here as I am the PRINCIPLES that surround why the containment is necessary.
Using verses that pertain TO LIFE on earth during God's grace period, isn't supportive of universalism - becuz other verses directly refute that elsewhere and are being rejected as FALSE (or twisted into something else).

 

[LJSGM]

To understand what the worm points to, I think we should look up the word in the original language. I don't have the resources to do that, yet. As for the NIV, I tend to use it less and less these days. I prefer the ESV. Now if my church would just get with the program! LOL They'll eventually have to switch though as the LCMS is adopting the ESV in place of the NIV for it's resources and teaching materials.

There is a strong's concordance online, just google it. There's probably other resources as well online

 

[LJSGM]

Death and HELL, are thrown into the lake of fire that doesn't die out, it continues on.
Revelation is very clear.

sorry, I know it's not important, but it really isn't clear, not with interpretation that the NIV scholars gave us. It actually says that death and HADES will be thrown into the lake of fire.

sure, it says that the fire doesn't die out, but it doesn't say that we aren't consumed by it.

The verse in revelations that refer to the devil and his angel's torment actually does not use the same word for eternal that they have been using, it can actually mean for an age or the age, as in before judgment in hades, and why does it say "day and night" unless it's on the earth some how?

I guess this is not so important at refuting as we should some theologies