Hell is a 404

1213 · Nov 17, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
You quoted my point #1 - is that as far as you got? One of my discoveries was that we cannot accept "hell" a priori just because the word is in there, for you see the word "hell" is not in the Greek or Hebrew. None of the four words (sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus) rendered as "hell" in your Bible refer to a place of eternal, conscious torment. Two come close (hades and tartarus), but they come from Greek mythology, which is to say, from paganism. ....

Ok, even if there is no word “hell”, it doesn’t really matter, because in Bible hell is the synonym for Gehenna, or Hades. It is ok for me to use the original words for the places that are described in the Bible. The content is much more important that the word that is used for the matter.
For example, we don’t need words Gehenna or hell, it is enough that we know that there is eternal fire lake. If you don’t want to call it hell, that is ok.

I also agree that “eternal, conscious torment” is not what the Bible tells. However, I don’t think we have enough information to say the ideas come from paganism. It is possible that the ideas Bible have, have influenced to pagan beliefs.

FineLinen · Nov 17, 2019

1213 said:
Ok, even if there is no word “hell”, it doesn’t really matter, because in Bible hell is the synonym for Gehenna, or Hades. It is ok for me to use the original words for the places that are described in the Bible. The content is much more important that the word that is used for the matter.
For example, we don’t need words Gehenna or hell, it is enough that we know that there is eternal fire lake. If you don’t want to call it hell, that is ok.

I also agree that “eternal, conscious torment” is not what the Bible tells. However, I don’t think we have enough information to say the ideas come from paganism. It is possible that the ideas Bible have, have influenced to pagan beliefs.

Dear 1213: The entire dogma of unending terror is based in darkness! Our Father indeed punishes, but punishment is NOT an end in itself but leads to change & transformation.

Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? by Charles Pridgeon

Lazarus Short · Nov 17, 2019

1213 said:
Ok, even if there is no word “hell”, it doesn’t really matter, because in Bible hell is the synonym for Gehenna, or Hades. It is ok for me to use the original words for the places that are described in the Bible. The content is much more important that the word that is used for the matter.
For example, we don’t need words Gehenna or hell, it is enough that we know that there is eternal fire lake. If you don’t want to call it hell, that is ok.

I also agree that “eternal, conscious torment” is not what the Bible tells. However, I don’t think we have enough information to say the ideas come from paganism. It is possible that the ideas Bible have, have influenced to pagan beliefs.

In the case of "hades," it is not difficult to see. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures replaced "sheol" with "hades." "Hades" was the best word the Greeks had, the best equivalent, BUT it carried some well-known pagan baggage with it, and it only got worse when "hades" was replaced with "hell." "Hell" in its original meaning of "hidden" and "covered" was not such a bad word or idea - in fact it was very close to the meaning of "sheol," but it took on so much theological baggage over the centuries that the original meaning is almost lost. Did you know that "hell" is also a verb? Yes, as in "helling" potatoes or whatever - you simply bury them between layers of straw, and below the local frost line.

JackRT · Nov 17, 2019

When most modern Christians think of hell they almost automatically, without even perhaps knowing it, are relying on the lurid medieval imaginings of Dante in his poem "The Inferno".

Lazarus Short · Nov 17, 2019

JackRT said:
When most modern Christians think of hell they almost automatically, without even perhaps knowing it, are relying on the lurid medieval imaginings of Dante in his poem "The Inferno".

I have noted that Hell's props consist mostly of fiction: Dante, Milton, Mary K. Baxter and a whole host of pop culture references.

eleos1954 · Nov 17, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions:

A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”

2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.

8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.

9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.

12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.

14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.

15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…

17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.

19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

****

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”

True because before sin entered into the world there was no death. Hell is the grave.
We were created from dust and to dust we return.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

…19 For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

Once again, correction ... before the fall there was no death, therefore no "hell", the grave, where all turn to dust.

3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

Lucifer spread lies about God and convinced 1/3 of the angels to rebelled against God and transgress His law (the 10). Lucifer committed the first sin in heaven (transgression of Gods law) and all were cast out of heaven to the earth. Lucifer wants to BE God ... ruler over all creation.

1 John 3:4

Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.

Isaiah 14:13 - both a literal account, and symbolic of satan

13You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north.
14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”…

4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

Creation was good and very good. All evil stems from the violation of Gods law (the 10)

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

When Satan and the 1/3 was cast out of heaven they forfeited eternal life ... and will be totally destroyed in the very end by eternal fire ... never to exist again. Satan brought sin into the world and sin brings forth death. When Adam & Eve sinned ... death entered the human race.

Romans 5:12

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

Ezekiel contains literal, prophetic and symbolic narrative. The literal prince of Tyre is literal and also symbolic of Lucifer.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.

dust to dust ... hell is the grave.

8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.

Correct hell is the grave.

9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Correct.

A "soul" is a person consisting of

Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

His Word is clear ... then is nothing immortal about us.

11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.

True ... hell is the grave ... and all turn to dust ... there is no conscienousness in the grave ... the dead know nothing.

12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

Correct. Once a person dies (earthly death) they were either in a saved condition by the Lord work in the believer, or a lost condition (did not repent) ... there are no second changes after earthly death.

13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.

People (while on earth) aren't "sent" anywhere ... they are either alive on earth or in the grave awaiting resurrection.

14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.

Sin and Death is what keeps people in captivity.

Acts 2:24

But God raised him from death, setting him free from its power, because it was impossible that death should hold him prisoner

15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

People are not tortured in "hell" when they die, they turn to dust and await resurrection.

16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…

Hell is the grave, all turn to dust and await resurrection.

17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.

The saved are as they will be changed at the first resurrection. The 2nd resurrection (of the lost) will be resurrection (unchanged) sin still intact.

19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

The first resurrection is of the saved and they will be redeemed. Those in the 2nd resurrection (second death) will be destroyed and reduced to ashes.

20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

Salvation is a gift and available to all while alive on earth, but one must choose to accept the gift .... or not ... else will be destroyed in the very end.

21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire

for refining and/or purification, or destruction

22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.

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Being baptized with fire is is a symbol of the glory, presence, and power of God manifest in the ministry of the Holy Spirit. To be baptized with fire is to be immersed in the glory of God’s presence through the Holy Spirit in order to witness in His power.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

Hell is the grave. The teaching of ECT in "hell" is one of the most .. if not THE most abominable teaching there is and many people reject God because of it.

. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

Click to expand...

A 404 (being not found) it is the grave.

In the very end all the lost, satan and his minions will be totally destroyed by fire sent from eternity by God, along with everything on earth will all will be reduced to ashes.

Click to expand...

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FineLinen · Nov 17, 2019

Dear Eleos: The Father's purposes are not rooted in "chance". This is NOT a giant Heavenly Casino!

There is no 1st chance, no 2nd chance, NO CHANCE!

"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will"

Der Alte · Nov 17, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
In the case of "hades," it is not difficult to see. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures replaced "sheol" with "hades." "Hades" was the best word the Greeks had, the best equivalent, BUT it carried some well-known pagan baggage with it, and it only got worse when "hades" was replaced with "hell." "Hell" in its original meaning of "hidden" and "covered" was not such a bad word or idea - in fact it was very close to the meaning of "sheol," but it took on so much theological baggage over the centuries that the original meaning is almost lost. Did you know that "hell" is also a verb? Yes, as in "helling" potatoes or whatever - you simply bury them between layers of straw, and below the local frost line.

Lexical fallacy. That a word may have had a different meaning hundreds of years ago in a different language in a different country has virtually no relevance to its meaning today in English.
When we say the word "truck we think of a big boxy vehicle for hauling large heavy loads but the original meaning was "vegetables."

JackRT said:
When most modern Christians think of hell they almost automatically, without even perhaps knowing it, are relying on the lurid medieval imaginings of Dante in his poem "The Inferno".

Nonsense. This is the most likely source of "hell" in Christianity. More than likely Dante got his ideas from the Jews.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

FineLinen · Nov 17, 2019

Der Alter said:
Lexical fallacy.

"Good grief", says Dr. Charles Brown (AKA Charlie Brown).

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

“Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit.” -Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

Der Alte · Nov 17, 2019

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen" said:
...

"Good grief", says Dr. Charles Brown (AKA Charlie Brown).
The risen Christ preaches to the dead
“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

...

Where was Noah and his family when they were saved were they dead? Or were they alive and saved by water.

“Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit.” -Rotherham Emphasized-

I can't find the book of Rotherham in my Bible. And I don't need to be told what English, Greek or Hebrew "really means."

Deade · Nov 17, 2019

eleos1954 said:
The first resurrection is of the saved and they will be redeemed. Those in the 2nd resurrection (second death) will be destroyed and reduced to ashes.

Hello sister, I enjoyed and agree with you whole post. I see the work of the HS working through you. Ignore the naysayers and keep up the good work.

FineLinen · Nov 18, 2019

Der Alter said:
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Lazarus Short · Nov 18, 2019

For those who still think God tosses people in the Fire for no reason other than to punish them forever, and for those who ID the Lake of Fire as Hell, I offer this bit that I came across just now in my document file:

GOD AS A REFINER

Isaiah 48:9-11
For My Name’s sake I defer My anger, for My praise I will restrain it for you -
otherwise I would cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, though not as silver.
I tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For My own sake, for My own sake, I act.
For how should I be profaned? I will not give My glory to another.

Zechariah 13:7-9
...Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered!
I will turn My hand against the little ones.
Then it will happen - it is a declaration of Adonai - that in the entire land
two-thirds will be cut off and die, but a third will be left in it.
This third I will bring through the fire. I will refine them as silver is refined,
and will test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My Name and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will answer, ‘Adonai is my God.’

Malachi 3:1-3

Behold, I am sending My messenger and he will clear the way before Me.
Suddenly He will come to His Temple - the Lord whom you seek -
and the Messenger of the covenant - the One whom you desire -
behold, He is coming,” says Adonai-Tzva’ot.
But who can endure the day of His coming? Or who can stand when He appears?
For He will be like a refiner’s fire, and like soap for cleaning raw wool.
And He will sit as a smelter or a purifier of silver, and He will cleanse the sons of Levi, and purify them like gold or silver.
Then they will become for Adonai those who present an offering in righteousness.

[The above is from the Tree of Life Version of the Bible.]

We see from these quotes that God will refine a portion or remnant of His people, especially the sons or descendants of Levi. Further, if God is a refiner, and His fire is a refiner’s fire, what else can we say of His Lake of Fire, except that it is for refining? It must be so, for God does not act contrary to His stated purposes, and is not a God of confusion.

We see this theme again on the Day of Pentecost. When the disciples were all gathered together, the Spirit of God came upon them as a wind (same word as Spirit) and there were manifestations on them, which the writer of Acts likened to fire. The disciples were thus refined.

1213 · Nov 18, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
In the case of "hades," it is not difficult to see. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures replaced "sheol" with "hades." "Hades" was the best word the Greeks had, the best equivalent, BUT....

Interesting information. For me the problem is, can I really trust to that, or is it just modern misunderstanding or misleading.

1213 · Nov 18, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear 1213: The entire dogma of unending terror is based in darkness! Our Father indeed punishes, but punishment is NOT an end in itself but leads to change & transformation.
...

I agree about the unending terror, but I don’t think there is support in the Bible for the idea that there is no end for evil people and that all eventually transform to righteous.

Lazarus Short · Nov 18, 2019

1213 said:
Interesting information. For me the problem is, can I really trust to that, or is it just modern misunderstanding or misleading.

If you have a problem trusting my information, you should do your own research on the subject. There is a good chance you will consult other sources and form a different opinion...and opinions usually come down to what sources we trust.

FineLinen · Nov 18, 2019

1213 said:
I agree about the unending terror, but I don’t think there is support in the Bible for the idea that there is no end for evil people and that all eventually transform to righteous.

Dear 1213: Let's start with a glorious equation of magnificent proportions.

polus = polus

The first Adam result = the mass of mankind "made sinners".

The Last Adam result = the mass of mankind "made righteous".

Der Alte · Nov 18, 2019

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
Dear 1213: The entire dogma of unending terror is based in darkness! Our Father indeed punishes, but punishment is NOT an end in itself but leads to change & transformation.
[Unfortunately the writings of Charles Pidgeon, whoever he is, are not scripture. DA

FineLinen said:
]

There was a doctrine of hell is Israel before and during the time of Jesus. If "The entire dogma of unending terror is based in darkness" why didn't Jesus preach and teach against it during His earthly ministry?
Can you provide any scripture which specifically states that any/all punishment by God "leads to change and transformation?"
By that I do not mean the standard inference that since God is "love, merciful, just" etc, He would never punish anyone in hell.

FineLinen · Nov 18, 2019

Der Alter said:
There was a doctrine of hell is Israel before and during the time of Jesus.

That is a cold hard fact! And that dogma can be found in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

FineLinen · Nov 18, 2019

D.A. Can you present to us the highlights of the dogma of Gehenna as per the Jewish Encyclopedia?

I have a number of questions in this regard.

1. Why do the fires of hell not touch the Jewish sinners?

2. Why do the Jewish sinners who confess their sins at the gates of hell and return to God get a free pass & the rest of us normal sinners do not?

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Hell is a 404

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