Hell: Infinite torture for a Finite life

[FallingWaters]

Suppose there are two men, one with twenty dollars in his bank account, and one with a million dollars in his bank account. A thief comes along and steals ten dollars from each of the men. Was the crime against the millionaire more egregious because he was rich?

I don't know of an analogy on human levels that would apply to what I said.

In my opinion, since both of the men are human, the level of sin against them is the same.

 

[loudatheist101]

I don't know of an analogy on human levels that would apply to what I said.

In my opinion, since both of the men are human, the level of sin against them is the same.

So they both go to Hell because they are human? It seems to me, breathing is a sin against God because we are human...

 

[FallingWaters]

So they both go to Hell because they are human? It seems to me, breathing is a sin against God because we are human...

I was asked about a crime.
I was not asked if they were going to hell.

I did point out that it is an insufficient analogy for this discussion.

People don't understand infinite holiness.
It is beyond human comprehension.

 

[loudatheist101]

I was asked about a crime.
I was not asked if they were going to hell.

I did point out that it is an insufficient analogy for this discussion.

People don't understand infinite holiness.
It is beyond human comprehension.

So we are just going to leave it there? "His Holiness is mysterous and cannot be comprehended"? Ok then, you win!

 

[FallingWaters]

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."" (ESV)

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
"... the angels will be ordered to take and cast them into everlasting burnings; they will be driven by them into hell, the place appointed for them; where they shall endure עונש נצחי "everlasting punishment", as the Jews also express it; and that both in soul and body, as the just desert of sin; which being committed against an infinite God, cannot be satisfied for by a finite creature; who therefore must ever bear the punishment of it, because its pollution and guilt will always remain."

 

[m9lc]

I was asked about a crime.
I was not asked if they were going to hell.

I did point out that it is an insufficient analogy for this discussion.

People don't understand infinite holiness.
It is beyond human comprehension.

I would think that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God wouldn't be so bothered by a human insulting him.

As I recall, in the OT, the standard for justice is "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, hand for a hand". Does my calling God a jerk , hurt him as much as it hurts me to be boiled in oil for eternity?

This seems odd to me.

 

[FallingWaters]

I would think that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God wouldn't be so bothered by a human insulting him.

As I recall, in the OT, the standard for justice is "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, hand for a hand". Does my calling God a jerk , hurt him as much as it hurts me to be boiled in oil for eternity?

This seems odd to me.

Since God is Omnibenevolent,
I trust His Judgment.

As it says it the Book of James,
"Mercy triumphs over judgment."
Those who have shown mercy will receive mercy.

 

[m9lc]

Since God is Omnibenevolent,
I trust His Judgment.

Circular logic doesn't really help your side of the argument.

 

[FallingWaters]

Circular logic doesn't really help your side of the argument.

I don't see how that is circular.
You said He is omnibenevolent.
I agree with you.

In the end, I am sure we will see that His judgments are infinitely more just than ours,
since He is infinitely more benevolent than us.

Humans should not dare to judge God.

 

[m9lc]

I don't see how that is circular.
You said He is omnibenevolent.
I agree with you.

In the end, I am sure we will see that His judgments are infinitely more just than ours,
since He is infinitely more benevolent than us.

Humans should not dare to judge God.

When did I ever say God was omnibenevolent? Have you taken a look at my faith icon? I don't believe he exists.

I'm arguing against the truth of the Bible. What I am saying here is that if the God portrayed in the Bible isn't truly omnibenevolent, then he can't exist.

So when I bring up a point as to how God seems to be ruthless and sadistic, and you respond with "I trust God's judgment" and "Humans can't judge God", then yes, that is circular.

 

[DarkWinter]

Let's look at it this way:

You build a robot. You built it from the ground up and made it the way you wanted it. You made it to perform several tasks, and those tasks are required. But, one day you are walking along and ou see your robot, so you tell him to do something. He says no. He was built for the tasks that you required of him or it, and he refuses. What would you do? This is your creation, your great work and it doesn't do what you say? I, for one, would destroy it! Do you see the problem here? God created us, and he gave us certain rules, and if we break them, we are punished. It's as simple as that.

 

[m9lc]

Let's look at it this way:

You build a robot. You built it from the ground up and made it the way you wanted it. You made it to perform several tasks, and those tasks are required. But, one day you are walking along and ou see your robot, so you tell him to do something. He says no. He was built for the tasks that you required of him or it, and he refuses. What would you do? This is your creation, your great work and it doesn't do what you say? I, for one, would destroy it! Do you see the problem here? God created us, and he gave us certain rules, and if we break them, we are punished. It's as simple as that.

God had foreknowledge that we would sin, and still designed our minds the way he did. So your robot analogy kinda falls apart there.

 

[loudatheist101]

You people always compare someone with no sins or a non sinner to robots...

 

[us38]

Let's look at it this way:

You build a robot. You built it from the ground up and made it the way you wanted it. You made it to perform several tasks, and those tasks are required. But, one day you are walking along and ou see your robot, so you tell him to do something. He says no. He was built for the tasks that you required of him or it, and he refuses. What would you do? This is your creation, your great work and it doesn't do what you say? I, for one, would destroy it! Do you see the problem here? God created us, and he gave us certain rules, and if we break them, we are punished. It's as simple as that.

Unsurprisingly, you forget the most pertinant information: when I created it, I knew that it was going to disobey me, I knew when it was going to disobey me, I knew exactly how it was going to disobey, and, knowing this, I have the ability to keep it from disobeying me. If it still disobeys me, it can only be because I let it, and I can't very well punish it for something I made it do.

Of course, we must also ask: did the robot really disobey me? If it did, it's still my fault it did. If it didn't, then there's nothing to punish it for.

 

[peter22]

God vs Azathoth

God reminds me of Azathoth, really. Azathoth is the omnipotent, blind, insane, seething nuclear chaos at the centre of the universe. The best thing to do is to stay below Azathoth's radar because even seeing him would drive you permanently, incurably insane. Actually, Azathoth is better because he doesn't demand you worship him, he just gets to the killing part without the preaching.

 

[GenuineMonotheist]

Could a Christian try and explain this one for me? (I was a hardcore Christian for 12 years and I can't think of a good answer)

Well, I'm not a Christian but I will try and give (God willing) a Muslim answer to those questions.

1. God is perfectly just, and hell is a just punishment for our sins.

While it's true that Al'lah (swt) is "perfectly just", the way many people often express this is (IMHO) very misleading - as if there is some external standard (to Him) of "justice" which His works happen to conform to. This isn't the case - what is "just" is exactly what He wills.

Al'lah (swt) has decreed punishment for what He forbids, both in this life and the next, most especially for the one sin He has declared He will not forgive in the afterlife (idolatry.) So it is "just", in so far as it is what the originator and absolute owner of all things wills.

2. Hell is a place of infinite torture.

This is incorrect for two reasons. First, permanent consignment to the Hellfire is only for one offence - ascribing partners to Al'lah (swt). If He so wills (all things are His), He may forgive anything else.

Second, the term is incorrect - infinite would mean that the Hellfire (and one's stay in it) not only will not have a conclusion but also that it did not have a beginning. Well, that's incorrect - only Al'lah (swt) is "non-finite" in any sense.

3. We humans, on earth, have lived finite lives and commited a finite amount of sins.

See #2 - the punishment is not "infinite". Further, who is to say what is a "just" punishment? You? Me?

So, for those of us going to hell, we have this simple equation:

infinite torture = finite sin

Again, the terms are wrong. Further, the object for which one will be punished unceasingly as a divine promise is only one thing, and it's the most important thing - giving over to creatures what belongs only to Al'lah (swt), thus negating the entire purpose for one's existence, which the Qur'an states plainly is nothing but to worship Al'lah (swt.) This is worse than murder, worse than anything else. Yet the punishment for this most heinous sin, is reserved exclusively to Al'lah (swt) alone (quite unlike murder, which courts try.) Thus so long as the kaf-fir (one who hides the truth from himself and otherS) does not do harm to the Muslim, there is no mandate to try to effect some kind of earthly prosecution for this sin. But the flip side of that is that should one use his entire life pointlessly, not taking advantange of the amnesty that it provided for him to correct himself (including God's prohibition that those who enjoin good and forbid evil should attack him as they would a murderer or a rapist), he will never leave the Hellfire, which is as awful as Paradise is wonderful.

How is this just?

It's as just as gravity - it's how it is, and it makes sense certainly if you consider the enormity of it all. As for the belief that any sin is sworn by Al'lah (swt) to involve unceasing punishment in Hell (what most Christians seem to believe), I won't offer any defense of that for it's not something I believe.

And saying that that is just the way God works will NOT be an acceptable or moral answer.

Isn't that like faulting gravity, or the sunrise? Some things really are a matter of just "dealing with it". That is what seperates the Muslim (one who surrenders to the will of Al'lah) from the disbeliever (who does not submit himself to his maker.) For all of the sophistry that atheists employ in their various arguments against the belief in the one, Almigthy and Living God, when it comes right down to it the root of their infidelity is that they don't say "thy will be done", but "my will be done!" Well, have it your way - if you like ice skating up hill, that's between you and your Maker. Just don't be shocked when you lose.

 

[m9lc]

For all of the sophistry that atheists employ in their various arguments against the belief in the one, Almigthy and Living God, when it comes right down to it the root of their infidelity is that they don't say "thy will be done", but "my will be done!"

No, it's actually something more along the lines of "I haven't seen proof for God's existence, so I don't believe in him." Good try though.

 

[meebs]

Let's look at it this way:

You build a robot. You built it from the ground up and made it the way you wanted it. You made it to perform several tasks, and those tasks are required. But, one day you are walking along and ou see your robot, so you tell him to do something. He says no. He was built for the tasks that you required of him or it, and he refuses. What would you do? This is your creation, your great work and it doesn't do what you say? I, for one, would destroy it! Do you see the problem here? God created us, and he gave us certain rules, and if we break them, we are punished. It's as simple as that.

The robot has amazingly developed a will of its own, whether it be smarter than me or not, therefore from then on i would treat it as my equal.

And give it it's freedom

 

[jeff992]

Your explanation makes sense, except for one thing: Hell isn't just "not Heaven". It's eternal torture. To my knowledge, I haven't caused infinite pain to anyone else in my lifetime. So why would I deserve it for myself?

I think you might be missing the point. It's not "because you did this sin you go to hell for eternity." It's really not about the sin at all. It's the fact that we are in a state of separation of God through sin. If one stay separated from God now, he will stay separated from God forevor. It's just like starting the separation.

 

[m9lc]

I think you might be missing the point. It's not "because you did this sin you go to hell for eternity." It's really not about the sin at all. It's the fact that we are in a state of separation of God through sin. If one stay separated from God now, he will stay separated from God forevor. It's just like starting the separation.

Once again, Hell isn't just not-Heaven, it's eternal torture.