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Hell & Heaven

12volt_man

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Holly3278 said:
Mark 9 does not imply that the punishment is eternal. At least it doesn't seem to in my opinion.

No, they're two different things.

In Mark 9, Jesus states outright that Hell is eternal. Twice, no less.

In the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the angel explains to the Rich Man that he cannot leave Hell.

He describes it as a "great gulf which cannot be crossed".

How about the mistranslation of the word the word witch in the Old Testament? It is supposed to be translated as poisoner, not witch.

To what, specifically are you referring? Chapter and verse?

Because Satan is totally evil. Therefore, he deserves to be punished forever. Humans are not totally evil. Some humans can be very evil but I don't think any human is totally evil.

So then, how evil does someone have to be?

Who's standard of evil are you going by, anyway? Your's or God's?

If we know that God is absolutely righteous and required absolute perfection, then doesn't it stand to reason that someone who breaks His laws is therefore absolutely unrighteous?

As I said before, Hell is eternal. The punishment in Hell for humans probably is not.

But, again, how do you reconcile this with the Bible's teaching that Hell is eternal?
 
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Buzz Dixon

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12volt_man said:
So then, how evil does someone have to be?
It suddenly struck me that Hell isn't for evil people, it's for stupid people. God is offering the free gift of eternal life and salvation and some people refuse to accept it.

Hell is not a place one is condemned to.

Hell is a place one chooses to stay in.
 
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Ave Maria

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12volt_man said:
No, they're two different things.

In Mark 9, Jesus states outright that Hell is eternal. Twice, no less.

In the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the angel explains to the Rich Man that he cannot leave Hell.

He describes it as a "great gulf which cannot be crossed".
That still does not imply that those being punished are not completely destroyed by the fire and therefore cease to exist. It only says that they can never leave Hell. Regardless, I have a very hard time believing in a literal Hell where the "sinners" all burn for eternity so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

12volt_man said:
To what, specifically are you referring? Chapter and verse?
My apologies. I did make a slight error. The term witchcraft in the Old Testament refers to women who used spoken curses to injure other people or to destroy their property. In the New Testament, it refers to murderers who use poisons to kill people. Wiccans do not do this. They obey the rede which states "And it harm no one, do what you will." Take a look at these links for more info:

What the Bible says about Wicca and Witchcraft

Interpretation of Exodus 22:18


Interpretation of Deuteronomy 18:10-11

Interpretation of Galatians 5:19-20

Interpretation of Revelation 21:8

12volt_man said:
So then, how evil does someone have to be?
I don't know. But that is not what I am discussing. I am discussing whether or not the punishment in Hell is eternal.

12volt_man said:
Who's standard of evil are you going by, anyway? Your's or God's?
Primarily mine I suppose. What is God's standard of evil?

12volt_man said:
If we know that God is absolutely righteous and required absolute perfection, then doesn't it stand to reason that someone who breaks His laws is therefore absolutely unrighteous?
God is also perfectly just and perfectly loving. Wouldn't it go to follow that he would only be perfecly just in his judgement?

12volt_man said:
But, again, how do you reconcile this with the Bible's teaching that Hell is eternal?
I don't believe that the Bible teaches Hell is eternal. Apparently we are not going to agree on this so we may as well agree to disagree.
 
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Ave Maria

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Buzz Dixon said:
It suddenly struck me that Hell isn't for evil people, it's for stupid people. God is offering the free gift of eternal life and salvation and some people refuse to accept it.

Hell is not a place one is condemned to.

Hell is a place one chooses to stay in.
People choose Hell? You know, I don't know a single person on this earth who would consciously choose to spend eternity burning in Hell. God does condemn people to Hell. He will seperate the "goats" and the "sheep", remember? Personally, I think it's quite logical that some people choose to reject the free gift of eternal life and salvation. I suppose Hell is also for those who never heard of Jesus and so therefore never had the chance to accept the free gift of eternal life and salvation?
 
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Kris_J

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Buzz Dixon said:
It suddenly struck me that Hell isn't for evil people, it's for stupid people. God is offering the free gift of eternal life and salvation and some people refuse to accept it.

Hell is not a place one is condemned to.

Hell is a place one chooses to stay in.
In that case, you are "smart"? Who made you smart & them "stupid"?
 
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12volt_man

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Holly3278 said:
That still does not imply that those being punished are not completely destroyed by the fire and therefore cease to exist. It only says that they can never leave Hell. Regardless, I have a very hard time believing in a literal Hell where the "sinners" all burn for eternity so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Matt. 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

Matt. 3:12 - And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:43 - And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire. (Jesus goes on to repeat this phrase later on in the same chapter)

Matt. 18:8 - And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,

2 Thess. 1:9 - And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

Jude 7 - Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire"

Jude12-13 - These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever,"

I'm sorry you disagree but I believe, as these verses clearly show, that the Bible is emphatic on the idea that Hell is eternal. I could go on, if you'd like.

My apologies. I did make a slight error. The term witchcraft in the Old Testament refers to women who used spoken curses to injure other people or to destroy their property. In the New Testament, it refers to murderers who use poisons to kill people. Wiccans do not do this. They obey the rede which states "And it harm no one, do what you will." Take a look at these links for more info:

What the Bible says about Wicca and Witchcraft

Interpretation of Exodus 22:18


Interpretation of Deuteronomy 18:10-11

Interpretation of Galatians 5:19-20

Interpretation of Revelation 21:8

First of all, religioustolerance.org is a political site, not one who's job is to promote sound doctrine or Biblical scholarship. I don't know that that's the best place to go for your information.

Personally, I find the Bible study tools on Crosswalk to be much better.

Second, none of these show that the definition of Hell has changed or that it's not eternal, only that they disagree with some Bible passages, which we already knew.

I don't know. But that is not what I am discussing. I am discussing whether or not the punishment in Hell is eternal.

That's exactly what you're discussing. You said,

Because Satan is totally evil. Therefore, he deserves to be punished forever. Humans are not totally evil. Some humans can be very evil but I don't think any human is totally evil.

Primarily mine I suppose.

Do you think that you or I are qualified to make moral declarations on God's behalf when He is perfect and we are sinful?

What is God's standard of evil?

God's standard requires absolute perfection. Anything outside of that is sin.

God is also perfectly just and perfectly loving. Wouldn't it go to follow that he would only be perfecly just in his judgement?

But that only goes to further emphasize my point: if God is perfectly just, then He must judge our absolute unrighteous in light of His absolute righteousness.

And, again, if God is infinitely righteous, then those who rebel against Him must be infinitely unrighteous. If we are infinitely unrighteous, then is it not just for Him to mete out infinite punishment?

I don't believe that the Bible teaches Hell is eternal.

And I have shown you several examples of the Bible teaching just that.
 
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12volt_man

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Holly3278 said:
I suppose Hell is also for those who never heard of Jesus and so therefore never had the chance to accept the free gift of eternal life and salvation?

Did you know that the Bible tells us that those who don't have an opportunity to respond to the Gospel are judged based on the light that they have been shown?
 
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Kris_J

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12volt_man said:
Did you know that the Bible tells us that those who don't have an opportunity to respond to the Gospel are judged based on the light that they have been shown?
Hi 12 volt- just for my reference -can you provide the verses to support your post? Thanks!:)
 
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LisaStar

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12volt_man said:
Do you believe in a literal Heaven?


That's a good question because I don't think heaven is a place with the pearly gates like all those old time stories. It is a place where purest energy is, the closest to God. It is pure love in all it's glory. Heaven is love.
 
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devoted daughter

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Kris_J said:
Is Hell itself Evil, & Heaven itself is Good?
Biblically, yes, but can’t one make hell on earth for himself by choices, free will, thoughts, and suffering?

Kris_J said:
Who created these places & why?
Biblically, God, to let individuals exercise free will.


may you have peace

DD
 
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aragorn

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12volt_man said:
Why do you believe in one and not the other when Christ taught both?
But in fact the word the Son of Man used which has been translated into hell was "Gehenna" the name of the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, where the fire burns and the worm does not die.

In fact the Son of Man was understood to mean that those who did not become sons and daughters of God would be thrown on the rubbish dump. Not tortured fpr ever. Which if you think about it makes a lot more sense, as a loving God would surely not wish any being to be tortured for ever.

Hell as a place of everlasting punishment is a creation of the catholic church typically misrepresenting Christ, in order to scare people and present him as a stern dangerous, inhuman character.
 
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12volt_man

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aragorn said:
But in fact the word the Son of Man used which has been translated into hell was "Gehenna" the name of the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, where the fire burns and the worm does not die.

Thayer and Smith define Gehenna as such:

Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

...and I tend to agree with them.

I don't believe that Jesus was speaking of a rubbish dump when He told the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. I believe, from His description, that He was speaking of what He believed to be a real place.

Nor do I believe that Paul or Jude, who I also cited, were speaking of this dump.

In fact the Son of Man was understood to mean that those who did not become sons and daughters of God would be thrown on the rubbish dump. Not tortured forever.

Given that Jesus repeats the idea that Hell is eternal elsewhere and Paul and Jude take Him literally (as well as John), I don't believe that He was understood to say this, except by you.

Which if you think about it makes a lot more sense, as a loving God would surely not wish any being to be tortured for ever.

Then you have misunderstood an elementary doctrine of Christianity.

God does not wish anyone to be tortured. This is why He gave His son as a ransom for all: so that we might be reconciled to Him and not be punished.

However, if God is just and righteous, then He has to punish unrighteouness.

Hell as a place of everlasting punishment is a creation of the catholic church typically misrepresenting Christ, in order to scare people and present him as a stern dangerous, inhuman character.

I disagree on two points.

First, that Hell is eternal is taught in scripture, as evidenced by the passages I have cited (and the fact that you can cite none makes your argument all the more shaky).

Second, your mischaracterization of the Catholic church is both untrue and unfair.

I am not Catholic and, to be sure, there are many things to disagree with the Catholic church about, but their portrayal of Christ is not one of them.

Having had several years of Catholic school, I'm familiar with the Catholic teaching on Christ and what you say could not be further from the truth.

Christ is never depicted as stern, dangerous or inhuman. To the contrary! He is shown to be a loving God made flesh to redeem the world.
 
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12volt_man

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LisaStar said:
That's a good question because I don't think heaven is a place with the pearly gates like all those old time stories. It is a place where purest energy is, the closest to God. It is pure love in all it's glory. Heaven is love.

That's a fair enough answer.

Although we have some brief descriptions of Heaven in scripture, the Apostle, Paul, in his first letter to the Corinthians, tells us that "eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him". I believe that means that Heaven is so wonderful that our mortal minds cannot even concieve of it.

Why do you think that Jesus and John, in his revelation, described it as a physical place?
 
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Buzz Dixon

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Holly3278 said:
People choose Hell? You know, I don't know a single person on this earth who would consciously choose to spend eternity burning in Hell. God does condemn people to Hell. He will seperate the "goats" and the "sheep", remember? Personally, I think it's quite logical that some people choose to reject the free gift of eternal life and salvation. I suppose Hell is also for those who never heard of Jesus and so therefore never had the chance to accept the free gift of eternal life and salvation?
Well, if it's logical to reject the free gift of salvation and willingly choose to spend an eternity in torment, wouldn't it be cruel and unjust of God to force you (rhetorical) into ertenal bliss angainst your wishes? I mean, how dare He!

The sheep and the goats were separated because of what they lacked in their hearts; the specific acts God praised the sheep for were manifestations of faith, just as the lack of those acts was a manifestation of an absence of faith.

As to the last point, God has given us the Great Comission, and we are the spread the Good News to all the world.
 
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Ave Maria

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Buzz Dixon said:
Well, if it's logical to reject the free gift of salvation and willingly choose to spend an eternity in torment, wouldn't it be cruel and unjust of God to force you (rhetorical) into ertenal bliss angainst your wishes? I mean, how dare He!

The sheep and the goats were separated because of what they lacked in their hearts; the specific acts God praised the sheep for were manifestations of faith, just as the lack of those acts was a manifestation of an absence of faith.

As to the last point, God has given us the Great Comission, and we are the spread the Good News to all the world.
I would not say that it is "cruel" per se for anyone to be forced into any kind of life regardless of whether it was good or bad. I would definitely say it would be cruel to force someone into everlasting firey punishment. It would not be just. My God is just.
 
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Buzz Dixon

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Holly3278 said:
I would not say that it is "cruel" per se for anyone to be forced into any kind of life regardless of whether it was good or bad. I would definitely say it would be cruel to force someone into everlasting firey punishment. It would not be just. My God is just.
They're not being forced, they're freely rejecting the gift of grace and salvation.
 
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12volt_man

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Holly3278 said:
I would not say that it is "cruel" per se for anyone to be forced into any kind of life regardless of whether it was good or bad. I would definitely say it would be cruel to force someone into everlasting firey punishment. It would not be just. My God is just.

But how is anyone "forced" into Hell?

Outside of Christ, we are all bound for Hell because we are seperated from God by sin.

It is God who offers us a way of salvation in the first place. If we reject that, as Paul says, what manner of salvation is left for us?

Earlier, you admitted that your opinion of who is good enough or bad enough to go to Hell and for how long, is based on your own criteria of goodness and not necessarily God's.

Are you defining what is just according to God's definition or what you hope God's definition to be?
 
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