Hell fire!

[Timothew]

I think part of the confusion is when hades, sheol, and gehenna are all translated hell, and sheol is also sometimes translated grave. And the Lake of Fire is thought of as the same hell. It's like having 5 kids and calling them all Dave, but sometimes randomly calling one of them Butch.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I agree that hell (hades) is not the lake of fire, because both death and hell (hades) are cast into the lake of fire, however it is noted that anyone not found in the book of life does too. The torment (as noted) in relation to the former cannot be for ever then. However there is also torment in respects to the latter (as also noted).

 

[Fireinfolding]

And just a note, I (personally) wouldnt want to be tormented for 10 minutes (thank you very much)

 

[revrobor]

I think part of the confusion is when hades, sheol, and gehenna are all translated hell, and sheol is also sometimes translated grave. And the Lake of Fire is thought of as the same hell. It's like having 5 kids and calling them all Dave, but sometimes randomly calling one of them Butch.

Hades is the "holding place" for the lost awaiting judgement. "Sheol" is the grave. "Gehenna" is Hell the place of eternal torment.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hades is the "holding place" for the lost awaiting judgement. "Sheol" is the grave. "Gehenna" is Hell the place of eternal torment.

This is what I have found...

In the OT Hebrew O grave #7585 = shĕ'owl but is written also as hell (there too).

The lexicon is showing the same grave interpreted as shĕ'owl but has noted it as hades

Thats what I have found anyway

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom 6299 them from the power 3027 of the grave 7585; I will redeem 1350 them from death 4194: O death 4194, I will 165 be thy plagues 1698; O grave 7585, I will 165 be thy destruction 6987: repentance 5164 shall be hid 5641 from mine eyes 5869.

O grave in the above is shĕ'owl

Definition

sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
a) the underworld
b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1) place of no return
2) without praise of God
3) wicked sent there for punishment
4) righteous not abandoned to it
5) of the place of exile (fig)
6) of extreme degradation in sin

Used here as

grave 31, hell 31, pit 3

In the above context O death is maveth there

 

[Bridgit]

is it wrong to come up with guesses as to what heaven or hell will be like?

It wouldn't be wrong. We all can only guess about it as we don't have the whole picture. One thing for sure, it will be a place where God will not be. So all that God is not can be attributed to what will be missing in Hell: no love, no light, no rest, no comfort, no peace, .....

 

[tackattack]

I agree with Rev and Fire in folding on their exegesis of Hell, Sheol, Hades and Gehenna. That's what all my research points to. I agree when they're all translated as Hell it makes it mighty confusing. Glad to see there is some unity still in the Body of Christ.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Which is why I posted behind revrobor, Im not sure if he is separating the grave/ shĕ'owl /hell/ hades from each other or not. If I was understanding him correctly.

Because if you look at the # 7585 (in the two reference to the grave below)

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom 6299 them from the power 3027 of the grave 7585; I will redeem 1350 them from death 4194: O death 4194, I will 165 be thy plagues 1698; O grave 7585, I will 165 be thy destruction 6987: repentance 5164 shall be hid 5641 from mine eyes 5869.

By clicking on the number 7585 the grave in Hosea 13:14 is shĕ'owl written also as hell 31 times (elsewhere) but if you scroll down to the Lexicon (which I cannot copy paste from for some reason) it notes hades in relation to the same.

As I am catching it is the grave = shĕ'owl =hell = hades

Whereas as I understood (unless I misunderstood) revrobor separating them, but could have been how he wrote it was throwing me off maybe


Death and hell are quite a pair, mentioned together in a few places.

God bless you

 

[tackattack]

I wouldn't know why shĕ'owl would have an ancillary relation to hades. It could be that Hades was the greek for the hebrew concept of shĕ'owl . I've always related
Hell = Hades = Greek
shĕ'owl = Grave = death = hebrew
Gehenna = lake of Fire = judgement day

where death and hell get dumped into the lake of fire that most people consider the imagery of hell = Gehenna

 

[Fireinfolding]

I wouldn't know why shĕ'owl would have an ancillary relation to hades. It could be that Hades was the greek for the hebrew concept of shĕ'owl . I've always related
Hell = Hades = Greek
shĕ'owl = Grave = death = hebrew
Gehenna = lake of Fire = judgement day

where death and hell get dumped into the lake of fire that most people consider the imagery of hell = Gehenna

Click on the word death in that same verse its a different word, although death and hell (which is shown as shĕ'owl) are shown together (as they are in the greek likewise)

Apparently its equal to what the Lexicon says is purgatory too?

Did you read that? Because I overlooked that part not pulling down the link, but I thought catholics typically separate purgatory from hell ?

Oh man, I wished I hadnt looked again

 

[tackattack]

Yes, As I understand the Jewish concept of Sheol is relatable to the Catholic Purgatory. There is some question though I believe as to whether it is still open, it was only for those pre-cross, or whether it's a stop over prior to the day of judgement.

As I understand the Catholic concept of purgatory it is a place where the soul is conscious and able to redeem itself by suffering and atoning, or sorting out problems it had during life. That is half of the concept of Sheol. Sheol was also a place where the righteous waited.

So Sheol would be the waiting are with both good and bad in Hebrew. Hades would be equivalent to catholic purgatory which is one half of sheol. The other half would be rest or death. So the concept in my mind of the Hebrew Sheol comes in 2 parts in one place (righteous and damned). From the Greek side they are just separating out the 1 place into 2. I think the concept of Sheol also had something like 3 or 5 levels to it if I remember the Rabbi's teaching. I'll ask for clarification on Thursday.

 

[Guy Rex Rodgers]

Purgatory is described as a temporary state that exists for the completion of sanctification (literally, the purging of sins). There is little discussion of Purgatory before the 4th century. It was only accessible to baptized Christians. Purgatory is a not a perfect synonym for any of the terms discussed here because souls in Purgatory are on their way to heaven, as soon as they are perfectly prepared.

 

[tackattack]

Sheol would be a place of atonement..

quote...
It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as

(Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or

(Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with "farthest corners" (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. "uttermost parts of the pit"), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is "dust" (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as "sleepers in the dust").

seems that purgatory with it's burning fire of atonement and intercessory prayers really doesn't mirror anything except Ghenna... I perhaps was wrong with my view of Catholic purgatory. It doesn't seem to match Christian Dogma or Jewish tradition... nor can I find Biblical support for it. Although there are a lot of extra Biblical doctrine about it written by saints and priests.

source ...
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).​

​

Perhaps that is one of the reasons some Christians consider Catholic beliefs divorced from scripture.

 

[Timothew]

If you compare Roman Catholic beliefs to prechristian Roman religious beliefs, the similarities are striking. Roman Catholics are obviously Christian, but I have to ask, why not come all of the way over?

 

[tackattack]

I'm not aware of purgatory being a Biblical based theology, I can't find the mention of it in the Bible, which is my foundation as a non-denom for Christian belief, regardless of the denomination label. I'll be more than happy to read up on it though if you can cite some source material.

 

[Guy Rex Rodgers]

Purgatory is rarely studied. For Catholics it is a dogmatic truth and for Protestants a reformed error.

This is a pity because Purgatory is part of a series of theological innovations introduced to make Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. I have spent the past 20 years studying the reinvention of Christianity in the 4th and 5th century. Purgatory is best understood as part of a series of changes including original sin and forced mass conversion of Pagans. Some of these innovations were reversed in the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Counter Reformation but the Gospel of love and salvation taught by Jesus is still often overshadowed by a 5th century Gospel of Wrath that has not been fully eliminated. This polarising of us ('saved' Christians) v them ('unsaved' non-Christians and bad/false Christians) still taints our understanding of salvation, sanctification, heaven and hell.

 

[Guy Rex Rodgers]

Dear Tackattack

You will not find Purgatory in the Bible. But you will find it deeply entranched in Christian theology. It was introduced by Augustine in the 4th century and remained official Christian theology for 1,000 years. The Reformation eliminated Purgatory from Protestant theology but it is still central to Catholicism. Purgatory was introduced for logical, although non-scriptural, reasons during a war to the death with Paganism. It was a violent weapon of mass conversion and is responsble for many violent events in Church history. We ignore it to our detriment.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yes, As I understand the Jewish concept of Sheol is relatable to the Catholic Purgatory. There is some question though I believe as to whether it is still open, it was only for those pre-cross, or whether it's a stop over prior to the day of judgement.

As I understand the Catholic concept of purgatory it is a place where the soul is conscious and able to redeem itself by suffering and atoning, or sorting out problems it had during life. That is half of the concept of Sheol. Sheol was also a place where the righteous waited.

So Sheol would be the waiting are with both good and bad in Hebrew. Hades would be equivalent to catholic purgatory which is one half of sheol. The other half would be rest or death. So the concept in my mind of the Hebrew Sheol comes in 2 parts in one place (righteous and damned). From the Greek side they are just separating out the 1 place into 2. I think the concept of Sheol also had something like 3 or 5 levels to it if I remember the Rabbi's teaching. I'll ask for clarification on Thursday.

Interesting thoughts, whats strange is whats mentioned in their fear of death (not the other) or in relation to "the pains of" death (Christ loosed) and likewise the sting of death, but the victory of the grave. Comparing the wording. I would have thought, any such sting would be associated with the other, or rather "O grave". But then again, if you look at Paul saying O death where is thy sting, O grave where is thy victory, he follows up right behind it with "the sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the law"

For some reason (to me anyway) are the comparisons being made right? Or rather, what does that have to do with the price of beans (as most compare it)? leaving that little part out of the equation (as to how it might relate) so to speak. Whereas on the otherhand (elsewhere) it says, sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but under grace (whereas under the law itself) is where he stated "being dead" wherein we were held. Ever notice that?

I guess I ask, what does the sting of death being sin and the power of sin being the law have to do with O death where is thy sting, O grave where is thy victory? And I am aware it speaks of when this mortal puts on immortality the saying shall come to pass, but its how he states it (in comparison to the other elsewhere).

Brainfreeze

I have heard alot on it in various ways, but my question always remains

 

[ashout]

wow you guys got way off topic. its cool i guess, I suppose your all teaching each other stuff. i'll remember next time i make a hell fire topic to except this to happen.

HAPPY DEBATING MASTER DEBATERS!