Hell-Fire

[lismore]

Anyone have problems with the traditional Christian view of hell-fire?

I remember as a child in the Catholic church, the thought of people burning in hell forever gave me nightmares. People burned eternally for the mistakes and choices of a few years.

Later on as a Pentecostal I was surprised at though they all believed the majority of their neighbours were going to burn, few people were actually giving a message of warning. I would have thought they would be out on the streets 24/7 to warn people of this hell-fire. SOme actually looked forward to seeing people they didnt like burning in hell.

Any alternatives?

 

[DeanM]

Good question.

I think that Hell-fire is a metaphor for "apart from God."

I believe Heaven will be glorious.

Those who do not accept God's love and grace will not enter Heaven. The area outside of Heaven is, in contrast, a bad place.

God makes His offer to us while we are on Earth. I do not think that we need to decide while we are on earth though. I think we will be shown God's love after we pass, and we can reject it or accept it.

I'll stop there to avoid rules violations.

 

[lismore]

G I think we will be shown God's love after we pass, and we can reject it or accept it.

Yes I have heard that view before. CS Lewis wrote about it in his book 'The Last Battle'. Interesting thanks!

 

[bodhitree]

Anyone have problems with the traditional Christian view of hell-fire?

I remember as a child in the Catholic church, the thought of people burning in hell forever gave me nightmares. People burned eternally for the mistakes and choices of a few years.

Later on as a Pentecostal I was surprised at though they all believed the majority of their neighbours were going to burn, few people were actually giving a message of warning. I would have thought they would be out on the streets 24/7 to warn people of this hell-fire. SOme actually looked forward to seeing people they didnt like burning in hell.

Any alternatives?

You know, that stuff still gives me nightmares too. Its scary! Now I feel that hell-fire is a tool used by people who feel powerless against things they are afraid of. Its like, "Well, youre going to burn in hell! (because I dont understand you, and that scares me, and I have no way to legally strike out at you, so I am going to use the "my dad can beat up your dad" argument to make myself feel stronger and superior to you)

I dont know about afterlife. I hope heavens great, but I also hope hells not what it says it is in revelations. I know many Christians enjoy the idea of their "enemies" burning in sulfurous rage, but, I for one, dont like that idea for anyone. I would hope that separation from God (hell) is more like death of the spirit, soul, and body. You just cease to exist, which, in itself is a tragedy.

So, still, not accepting God's love is still pretty bad, but not so unreasonable and petty.

 

[AzA]

I grew up in a church that did not teach literal hell-fire. Nor did they teach eternal torment. They taught that because humanity is mortal, and only lives via the breath of God, no human can sustain its own life and so withdrawing from God means expiring. They based this on their reading of Genesis, Job, Ecclesiastes, Daniel, Revelation, and the evolution of the hell idea in Greco-Roman tradition.

In that framework, the literal flamework and eternal burning of other traditions was anathema. To me, it still is: Vesuvius can do a cleaner job than a God who requires an eternal smokepit. That is my opinion, it's held across a number of traditions, and God knows.

I think that relying on the persuasive powers of any afterlife suggests theological weakness in this life, but I tend not to discuss it much because I recognize that a lot of people find a lot of comfort and/or resolution in their views of the afterlife... and although it might sound otherwise I do respect that.

If there is anywhere to go to, I'll find out at some point, won't I? I take it for granted that I'll be surprised by something, and controlling what is and what isn't so is way above my pay grade.

 

[Supernaut]

Anyone have problems with the traditional Christian view of hell-fire?

I remember as a child in the Catholic church, the thought of people burning in hell forever gave me nightmares. People burned eternally for the mistakes and choices of a few years.

Later on as a Pentecostal I was surprised at though they all believed the majority of their neighbours were going to burn, few people were actually giving a message of warning. I would have thought they would be out on the streets 24/7 to warn people of this hell-fire. SOme actually looked forward to seeing people they didnt like burning in hell.

Any alternatives?

Many Christians have confused themselves and others in regards to Hell and the second death. Obviously there isn't an "eternal" hell. There is only death. After the first death, those who didn't choose Christ (before or after death) will simply be no more(the second death).

But as DeanM said, "I'll stop there to avoid rules violations".

 

[D.W.Washburn]

I was recently introduced to the intriguing thought that there is one refining fire. To those who need refined, it feels like the flames of hell. To those who have been refined, it is the warmth of the Holy Spirit.

I don't claim this idea for my own. And I will say no more about it.

 

[lismore]

I was recently introduced to the intriguing thought that there is one refining fire. To those who need refined, it feels like the flames of hell. To those who have been refined, it is the warmth of the Holy Spirit.

I don't claim this idea for my own. And I will say no more about it.

Hello

Yes, I have heard something similar to that too! I was given a copy of the book called The Jerome Conspiracy. Here is a review:

The Jerome Conspiracy - Michael Wood

Worth reading at least.

Some people also use this verse: Matthew 18:34
In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

To suggest some kind of purgatory!

 

[ebia]

Anyone have problems with the traditional Christian view of hell-fire?

I remember as a child in the Catholic church, the thought of people burning in hell forever gave me nightmares. People burned eternally for the mistakes and choices of a few years.

Later on as a Pentecostal I was surprised at though they all believed the majority of their neighbours were going to burn, few people were actually giving a message of warning. I would have thought they would be out on the streets 24/7 to warn people of this hell-fire. SOme actually looked forward to seeing people they didnt like burning in hell.

Any alternatives?

Scripture is primarily concerned with God's plan to save creation - the few metaphoric references to the alternative for those who continue to reject God's Kingdom seem to be in tension between destruction and eternal separation (coming together in, if it's a passable translation, Paul's phrase of "eternal destruction" which seems oxymoronic to me).

I suspect Lewis comes as close as we can ever get to seeing how things could work in the Great Divorce.

 

[camethodactor]

The dogmas of hell and damnation are very problematic to me. I find it hard to believe that a loving God who we call Father could ever condemn or allow any of his children to be sent to an infinite place, of infinite suffering, for an infinite period of time with no hope or relief is barbaric. Arminianism is problematic because it says that God should be able to save all souls but is not able to do so. Meanwhile, Calvinism is problematic because it says that God is able to save all souls, but is not willing. Under Arminianism it makes humans more powerful than God and under Calvinism turns God into a bloodthirsty tyrant. As a Universalist, I am firmly believe that ALL SOULS, Christian or not, will be reconciled to God in due time. Nobody is able to resist God's grace, Nobody is able to resist God's love.

 

[DavinMochrie]

To deserve eternal hell based on works,....... doesn't that mean works are more important than Grace?

 

[crishmael]

Later on as a Pentecostal I was surprised at though they all believed the majority of their neighbours were going to burn, few people were actually giving a message of warning. I would have thought they would be out on the streets 24/7 to warn people of this hell-fire. SOme actually looked forward to seeing people they didnt like burning in hell.

This is something that I have marveled about for years. If one believes that there is no way possible for anyone to go to heaven without a born again experience with Jesus, and that those who don't have one are doomed to burn in hell eternally, then why do so many seem to just go on living "normal" lives. If such I believed such a terrible thing was going to happen I'd never want to waste a moment not trying to warn others and convert them. The idea of just living my life would be down right evil because of those I'd be dooming to hell by my inaction.

But churches built on those beliefs keep on going on with their churchy business and building bigger buildings, seemingly oblivious or indifferent to the terrible fate most will supposedly suffer.

 

[DavinMochrie]

This is something that I have marveled about for years. If one believes that there is no way possible for anyone to go to heaven without a born again experience with Jesus, and that those who don't have one are doomed to burn in hell eternally, then why do so many seem to just go on living "normal" lives. If such I believed such a terrible thing was going to happen I'd never want to waste a moment not trying to warn others and convert them. The idea of just living my life would be down right evil because of those I'd be dooming to hell by my inaction.

But churches built on those beliefs keep on going on with their churchy business and building bigger buildings, seemingly oblivious or indifferent to the terrible fate most will supposedly suffer.

Because indifference, lack of empathy and selfishness....... is the statsus quo for a lot of people in the world.

As long as their SUV is running, their kids have the elite private schools, their family is looked after..... there is little time to think of others in a world that's all about amassing more and more consumer goods.

 

[TheManeki]

This is something that I have marveled about for years. If one believes that there is no way possible for anyone to go to heaven without a born again experience with Jesus, and that those who don't have one are doomed to burn in hell eternally, then why do so many seem to just go on living "normal" lives. If such I believed such a terrible thing was going to happen I'd never want to waste a moment not trying to warn others and convert them. The idea of just living my life would be down right evil because of those I'd be dooming to hell by my inaction.

But churches built on those beliefs keep on going on with their churchy business and building bigger buildings, seemingly oblivious or indifferent to the terrible fate most will supposedly suffer.

This was great, crispfin. There are certainly many churches which seem to want to keep out the riff-raff.

But then there are many other churches that are really big into evangelizing, especially of high school and college age kids. It seems that a lot (most?) of these are conservative churches, maybe because too many liberal churches are filled with Godless universalists that don't believe that what they are offering is necessarily better than whatever religion/philosophy other people are currently following. I wonder if that attitude is preventing more people from knowing liberal Christians exist. Any thoughts?

 

[lismore]

This is something that I have marveled about for years. If one believes that there is no way possible for anyone to go to heaven without a born again experience with Jesus, and that those who don't have one are doomed to burn in hell eternally, then why do so many seem to just go on living "normal" lives. If such I believed such a terrible thing was going to happen I'd never want to waste a moment not trying to warn others and convert them. The idea of just living my life would be down right evil because of those I'd be dooming to hell by my inaction.

But churches built on those beliefs keep on going on with their churchy business and building bigger buildings, seemingly oblivious or indifferent to the terrible fate most will supposedly suffer.

Absolutely. My point exactly. If you believed everyone was going to hell you'd be out warning them 24/7.

 

[lismore]

But then there are many other churches that are really big into evangelizing, especially of high school and college age kids.

I get the impression they are looking for young people, who might one day be successful and bring money into the church. Everything seems to be based on a double motivation, not just evangelising, but using evangelism to build up the denomination, i.e not going to people who have on the surface nothing to offer.

 

[crishmael]

This was great, crispfin. There are certainly many churches which seem to want to keep out the riff-raff.

But then there are many other churches that are really big into evangelizing, especially of high school and college age kids. It seems that a lot (most?) of these are conservative churches, maybe because too many liberal churches are filled with Godless universalists that don't believe that what they are offering is necessarily better than whatever religion/philosophy other people are currently following. I wonder if that attitude is preventing more people from knowing liberal Christians exist. Any thoughts?

I actually wouldn't say that people don't know that liberal Christians exist. Many of the sermons of conservative preachers I have heard and was raised hearing constantly featured a liberal Christian stereotype of one form or another they would compare conservative (i.e. real) believers to. So I think that a good number of people know that there are liberal Christians, it's just they know they're agents of Satan.

I do suppose that having an honestly universalist mindset could be a bit of a damper on evangelism. But there are more ways to express your faith than just accosting people on the street to tell them about Jesus. It would be nice to find ways to express faith that aren't confrontational or cheesy like wearing Jesused up corporate logos.

Yeesh. Now I know why Jesus wept.

I get the impression they are looking for young people, who might one day be successful and bring money into the church. Everything seems to be based on a double motivation, not just evangelising, but using evangelism to build up the denomination, i.e not going to people who have on the surface nothing to offer.

Honestly, there is a bit of evangelism like that. During my last years in my former denomination they had a big drive to run up the membership numbers over the million mark, and it was easy to see through the rhetoric that it wasn't really about Christ, it was all about denominational pride. And then there is also evangelism to "take back America for God" where sermons are preached from political talking points to motivate the converts to vote on the issues God cares about like oppressing homosexuals.

 

[fieryphoenix]

I do not believe there is a geographical place called hell. Hell is just a method of social control that the church invented to force people to accept its theology. God is not a merciless sadist who nothing better to do than to torture people for eternity because they don't have the right beliefs.

I read a very spiritually liberating book called The Gospel of Inclusion by Bishop Carlton Pearson. I urge you to read it.

 

[Speculative]

I find the truth of eternal hell-fire very comforting.

Every day I tune into the National Geographic channel, and hear all kinds of people saying that the earth is billions of years old and that we're all descended from monkeys named Lucy.

It just makes my blood boil.

Then I remember that Charles Darwin's been on fire for all these years--and that he'll burn forever and ever-- and it makes me feel better.

 

[lismore]

Then I remember that Charles Darwin's been on fire for all these years--and that he'll burn forever and ever-- and it makes me feel better.

Hey spec

Sorry to disappoint you! Charles Darwin was an ordained church minister. Most Christians would see that as a get out of hell card!