Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power...2 Thess 1:6-10
Everlasting destruction - Destruction is an ongoing thing that is everlasting. If you are “being destroyed”, then it is not a one time destruction for ever. It is a state of being destroyed.
So when the Bible teaches, " When the wicked spring as the grass and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" (Ps.92:7), it really means the wicked will be "being destroyed" forever?
You can be destroyed, but that is our typical understanding. If we're destroyed forever, then our destruction never stops.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:6-7
The cities were destroyed, but really it is talking about the people of Sodom and Gomorrha.
The cities were destroyed very quickly, yet what we’re talking about here is “eternal fire” as a vengeance.
All I was pointing out is that according to Jude, an example of eternal fire is how S & G were destroyed and the fire that destroyed them is out. I think it is plausible to explain eternal fire with respect to its effects, not necessarily its length.
The cities were destroyed, but it's really talking about the people of the cities. Chorazain and Bethsaida have a worse judgment coming, yet the cities were not destroyed.
The eternal fire describes the punishment. In fact the term "eternal fire" is the clearest picture we have.
A chain can mean lots of things. For instance, God only let Satan go so far with Job. It could be said that God put a chain on the devil, but it doesn't mean the devil was completely powerless to do damage. Does scripture tell us anything more about this obscure reference of angels being chained under darkness? I don't think we even know what that means.
It's not obscure since it clearly says they are being held in everlasting chains. It's not talking about devils that tormented Job. It's talking about angels who went outside of where they were supposed tog o.
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-48
A worm that doesn't die and unquenchable fire both completely devour the body.
Total destruction wouldn't be accomplished by a dying worm or a fire that went out, would it?
The fire is not quenched (does not go out) and the worm does not die. That's pretty plain.
Someone who is burning out isn't too concerned about a worm, I wouldn't think. They're dealing with the pain. They're not concerned about their relatives either. They're not worried about a "place", but if they had a lasting presence of mind, would be worried about a fate. Lazarus had his comfort and the rich man had his torment.
He had a conversation with Abraham. Not too many people burning have conversations. The fire and worm are ongong and are torments. The worm makes it worse because the flame does not consume those being tormented, it adds to their torment.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever....14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:9-15
If the devil is going to be tormented night and day forever, and if another place, Hell is described as place for the devil and his angels, and that we might go there as disobedient, then this is more than a temporary disposition.
Provided the passage has been correctly interpreted, I agree. The problem for me is that of the hundreds of passages dealing with the fate of the wicked, Rev.20 plus the parable of Lazarus, are the only ones which appear to teach eternal torment and the point about the Lazarus story isn't even about what happens to people after death. People have pretty much taken Rev.20 and interpreted every other passage of scripture (dealing with the fate of the wicked) by it. Even passages which indicate the wicked will no longer exist.
In English the rendering might seem to say something else sometimes, but the "eternal" and "everlasting" are qualities spoken of that God possesses. Destruction is not everlasting. Sodom and G, as you pointed out were destroyed and the burning ceased. If it is everlasting, it the destruction is everlasting. Their have been a number of people who have seen Hell and they also testify that it is not a quick and merciful destruction. It is an ongoing, everlasting destruction. That is why we are to consider it for what it is. This keep people from just enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season with the intent, that they'll get back to the joys of their salvation when they are ready. I believe their are many in Heaven who were believers.
His own people can be disobedient and not do His Word. They have the power of choice and they know better than any unsaved person.
We have many examples in the Word where God's people, throughout the ages, were disobedient and they incurred His wrath. We probably know more about His wrath in the Word than anything else.
Thank God for His grace!
If it's Gods plan for people to suffer forever, there wouldn't be any gain, but maybe when people die they're not conscious of anything. "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not any thing..." (Ecc.9:5). Did Solomon know more about the things of God than we do? But the point about the rich man and Lazarus wasn't that the wicked are going to burn forever. Jesus told this story in the hearing of the Pharisees to show them that they didn't really believe Moses and the prophets.
The dead don't know anything here. The rich man across from Lazarus knew plenty. So did Lazarus. Moses and Elijah knew something when they visited with Jesus. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew something (as God is God of the living and not "the dead".
I agree that it wouldn't be fair to let someone like Hitler have the same penalty as the average person. You make an excellent point and I have no answer for it. I'll have to study it out, but if everyone goes into the lake of fire, isn't everybody who rejects Jesus suffering the same fate no matter what they did?
Everyone who rejects the Word of the Lord eventually suffers the lake of fire.
It’s not our own righteous works that will do this, and we MUST be born again to enter into covenant and walk in His Spirit. We will reap that which we sow. We are now given the ability as believers to sow life and reap everlasting life (entirely by grace). We also have the ability (by means of still having a sinful fleshly nature) of doing just the opposite. It is more serious for a believer to go to Hell than an non believer.
We should take the warnings of God very seriously, particularly as believers. Not just for a temporary burning up, but because, as the Word teaches, punishment is everlasting and for ever and ever.
I understand what you're saying. but people who don't obey Jesus are unbelievers. I was taught the doctrine of eternal torment my whole life, but I didn't choose to believe in Jesus because I was afraid of going to Hell. What got me saved was the love Jesus has for me. I'm just checking on this doctrine because I want to make absolutely sure I'm not believing something about God that isn't true.
Nowhere does it say they are unbelievers. It might be you or I. I'm a believer!
Anyone can be disobedient. Yes, the love of Jesus saves us and will save us, but Jesus said that those who don't do His Words have a great ruin, while those who do are built upon the solid rock. God does allow repentance, but it must be sought out while He may be found (in this world).
