Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Do you assume that I abhor the thought of that being true, like Dan1988 does with his "God is hate" nonsense on the previous page? Not at all. I cannot deny that universal reconciliation (I assume that is the position you take with these words) does have some Scriptural evidence

Brilliant deduction, although there are many flavors in the realm of Christian universalism. Even the infamous Roman catholic church "allows" it as a heterodox position.

I would be overjoyed to find out that it was the true interpretation in the end

Surprisingly, one can believe that Jesus IS the Savior of the world and still hold to eternal torment for the devil and his messengers. Imagine that?

I only take up the conditional immortality stance because it has more evidence in Scripture to me than the other two positions

I've mentioned this prior, but technically, we're all the walking dead, us included. Col. 3:3

So that part is a foregone conclusion in God's Eyes.

The "Body" we will inhabit for eternity is technically HIS, as all things are HIS. 1 Cor. 15:28

I most certainly do presume to cry out for His mercy and forgiveness while demanding that others are left in the dark of unforgiveness and wrath forever.

Yeah, maybe not so much.

IF we really wanted Divine Mercy we'd probably be well served to hope for it for all people, us included. You know, the "as you measure so you will be measured yourself" thingy

Besides it's good for the heart not to have to carry that kind of darkness in us. I've seen religious people get real ugly over a lifetime of holding on to that crap of hypocrisy and false self justifications, etc etc

 

[Dan1988]

I responded to your false statement “God is hate” with a definition that God is love and He tells us that is also His commandment to us. I made no claim that any of us can actually keep the commandments or achieve any kind of “sinless perfection”.

Now you go off into to some accusations of “works based salvation” of which I said no such thing. I was concentrating on the fact that God is NOT “hate.”

Your presumption that I was speaking about “works based salvation” is incorrect and an ignorant accusation. I understand the context of where the commandments & works apply to living by faith ( Romans 1:17, Romans 13:1-14, Colossians 1:1-29 especially verses 10 through 24) that these are of the liberty in which Jesus Christ frees us from the yoke of bondage ( Galatians 5:1-26. We are saved by grace to walk in faith for good works ( Ephesians 2:8-10).

I think anyone should read Romans 16:17-19 to consider in your way of posting.

I think you should read Romans 16:17-19 it speaks about those like yourself who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the the doctrine I have learned.
You contradict the gospel of the Lord Jesus, by rejecting the new covenant and trying to mix the old and new together, thus creating another gospel.

You falsely claim that "God is love" but I gave you verses to show you that God is also hate, but you rejected them because you only believe those scriptures which you can use to support your denomination.

Your always referring to verses which exhort "born again believers to do good works", but you try to apply them as requirements to fulfill, in order to earn salvation. You're trying to present a hybrid gospel, whereby we are saved by grace and works.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Yeah, maybe not so much.

IF we really wanted Divine Mercy we'd probably be well served to hope for it for all people, us included. You know, the "as you measure so you will be measured yourself" thingy

Sorry, I meant to say I do NOT presume to ... I should go correct that post before others get the wrong idea.

 

[SarahsKnight]

I responded to your false statement “God is hate” with a definition that God is love and He tells us that is also His commandment to us. I made no claim that any of us can actually keep the commandments or achieve any kind of “sinless perfection”.

Now you go off into to some accusations of “works based salvation” of which I said no such thing. I was concentrating on the fact that God is NOT “hate.”

But eternal torment proponents, once challenged with a different view from other believers on this matter, must resort to such strawman tactics to save face.

For example,
You: No, God is NOT hate as you say, as there is no Scripture that states that. Rather, here's where it states just the opposite, that God IS love.

Dan1988: *gasp* Legalist! You think works will save you and not Christ Himself!

 

[timothyu]

God is against adversity, not those who practice it.

 

[timothyu]

Please identify the "us"

We humans (and His elohim).
His Will be done in earth as it is in Heaven

 

[Lukaris]

I think you should read Romans 16:17-19 it speaks about those like yourself who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the the doctrine I have learned.
You contradict the gospel of the Lord Jesus, by rejecting the new covenant and trying to mix the old and new together, thus creating another gospel.

You falsely claim that "God is love" but I gave you verses to show you that God is also hate, but you rejected them because you only believe those scriptures which you can use to support your denomination.

Your always referring to verses which exhort "born again believers to do good works", but you try to apply them as requirements to fulfill, in order to earn salvation. You're trying to present a hybrid gospel, whereby we are saved by grace and works.

I didn’t know saying, “God is love” ( 1 John 4:8) is false. You keep saying that I am putting the Old Testament over the New by mentioning the commandments ( like Matthew 7:12 per Matthew 7:1-12, Matthew 22:36-40, Romans 13:8-10, per Romans 3:1-14?).

Yet you keep saying “God is hate” or is “also hate” in your revised mentions. Every verse that you can try to claim this from is from the Old Testament which you say I sm muddling with the New. The only thing God “hates” in the NT are the “deeds” ( Revelation 2:6) & “doctrines ( Revelation 2:15) of the Nicolatians. God ( the Lord Jesus Christ here) doesn’t say He hates the Nicolatians themselves. This is recorded by the Apostle John who also wrote “God is love” ( 1 John 4:8). 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 isn’t a hallmark card.

Paul speaks of the problem of works in Romans 3 based on boasting & exclusive, self righteousness towards the Gentiles ( Romans 3:27-31). Paul adds circumcision to this in Romans 4 by Abraham who lived by faith yet was the father of circumcision ( Romans 4:11-13) because some early circumcised Christians were insisting all had to be circumcised.

Living by faith involves living by the Lord’s commandments not assuming we can keep them but trusting in Him by them ( He promises us the Holy Spirit to counsel us in this per John 14:15-18). When we depart this earthly life salvation is ( Ephesians 2:8-9) while we are here, we are living life as Paul tells us in Romans 13:1-14, per Ephesians 2:8-10). These things should happen as a living witness in some form ( Matthew 5:14-20). We are warned to take care in living by faith ( Matthew 7:15-23). What are we supposed to be otherwise in daily life, stiff boards walking around in straight jackets?

 

[Brother Del]

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The Lord Jesus Christ felt so strongly about this place that "doesn't exist", that He suggested the cutting off and plucking out of body parts, if that's what it took to keep you from going there.

And while in the process of encouraging self mutilation, He said not a single word about
"annihilation". But rather, repeated three separate times "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"

I don't mean to be unkind. I love you all, and with all the love of Christ within me. And it is because of that love that I humbly say to you. You better give heed to His words. You better stop arguing amongst yourselves and hear the words of the Master Himself. He created Hell, do you think He might just have some kind of an idea what He's talking about?

There are some of you who for whatever reasons will insist that the One person in all of human history who never spoke anything but the truth, for He is Truth, did not mean what He was plainly saying. To you I say, regardless of your level of education, you are a fool. Repent of your nonsense before you become a damned fool.
Father have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Holy Spirit lift the veil.

 

[SarahsKnight]

There are some of you who for whatever reasons will insist that the One person in all of human history who never spoke anything but the truth, for He is Truth, did not mean what He was plainly saying.

Yeah, you're right. If only folk like @JulieB67 , @timothyu , and myself would just accept the plain saying from Jesus in Matthew 10:28 "destroy both soul and body in hell" as really meaning "keep both body and soul alive in endless torment in hell" like eternal torment proponents do.
If only we could understand that what Jesus plainly meant by John 3:36 "and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him", is really "he that believeth not the Son shall see life in hell instead of life in Heaven, where the wrath of God does not result in actual destruction but goes on conciously for all eternity, keeping sin and sinners alive in His perfect kingdom". If only we could understand what Jesus was plainly saying in verses such these, like the eternal torment proponents do, right?

I mean, when He told us to "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you", of course we were all supposed to understand that, all the while, the One who commanded us to love our enemies is planning to torture His enemies alive for eternity. >_>
___________

I don't mean to be unkind. I love you all, and with all the love of Christ within me. And it is because of that love that I humbly say to you. You better give heed to His words

To you I say, regardless of your level of education, you are a fool. Repent of your nonsense before you become a damned fool.

What's nonsense here is your claiming to love us and not trying to be unkind in one breath, and then condemn us to burn alive for eternity in God's name unless we turn back to the eternal torment doctrine (i.e. your way of thinking, and you cannot prove it is also God's way) in the next breath. I mean, come on.

And also, while we're on the subject of, in your quoted words at the top of this post, what "He was plainly saying", didn’t Jesus say somewhere in at least one of the four gospels that someone who calls his brother a fool would be in danger of those very fires of Gehenna/hell?
So, is it not you who needs to watch his words or change how he thinks lest he come under the same condemnation with which he was implicitly condemning both the conditionalists/annihilationists and universality in this thread?

 

[timothyu]

I mean, when He told us to "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you", of course we were all supposed to understand that, all the while, the One who commanded us to love our enemies is planning to torture His enemies alive for eternity. >_>

As many who live under the oppression of bullies would one day hope for their oppressors, failing to understand that those bullies were the product of whatever made them that way, and in seeking revenge, the victim has also become the bully

 

[Brother Del]

Yeah, you're right. If only folk like @JulieB67 , @timothyu , and myself would just accept the plain saying from Jesus in Matthew 10:28 "destroy both soul and body in hell" as really meaning "keep both body and soul alive in endless torment in hell" like eternal torment proponents do.
If only we could understand that what Jesus plainly meant by John 3:36 "and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him", is really "he that believeth not the Son shall see life in hell instead of life in Heaven, where the wrath of God does not result in actual destruction but goes on conciously for all eternity, keeping sin and sinners alive in His perfect kingdom". If only we could understand what Jesus was plainly saying in verses such these, like the eternal torment proponents do, right?

I mean, when He told us to "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you", of course we were all supposed to understand that, all the while, the One who commanded us to love our enemies is planning to torture His enemies alive for eternity. >_>
___________





What's nonsense here is your claiming to love us and not trying to be unkind in one breath, and then condemn us to burn alive for eternity in God's name unless we turn back to the eternal torment doctrine (i.e. your way of thinking, and you cannot prove it is also God's way) in the next breath. I mean, come on.

And also, while we're on the subject of, in your quoted words at the top of this post, what "He was plainly saying", didn’t Jesus say somewhere in at least one of the four gospels that someone who calls his brother a fool would be in danger of those very fires of Gehenna/hell?
So, is it not you who needs to watch his words or change how he thinks lest he come under the same condemnation with which he was implicitly condemning both the conditionalists/annihilationists and universality in this thread?

Your argument isn't with me, its with Jesus, and its a foolish one.

I called no one out by by name, but since you chose to identify yourself, so be it. You're making foolish statements based on foolish assumptions. You may be a rocket scientist for all I know, but your arguments regarding this topic are those of a fool.

And again, your argument is not with me, but Jesus. If you think He meant something other than what he said, take it up with Him.

And by the way, here's the words of Christ you referenced in context.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

Christ said we should be careful about calling our "brothers" fools, and that it was a dangerous thing to do. And He's right. But you aren't speaking like any brother or sister I've ever known. "Didn't Jesus say", those were your exact words. Anyone who's known Christ more than fifteen minutes wouldn't have to ask, they would know. And you seem a little angry as well, Jesus gives peace to His followers.

To be perfectly frank, you sound like someone who has done some pretty terrible things in their life and is trying desperately to convince themselves they won't be facing eternal punishment one day.

Guess what, you're not the first.

Here's another shocking statement for you. I really do love you, I'm not the least bit angry with you, and Jesus loves you way way more than I do. Why not let go of all that sin and misplaced anger and put your trust in the one who gave His life for you? You'll have to repent of course, and forgive whoever hurt you and made you so angry. But you wouldn't be the first one to ever do that either.

Hell sucks, whether it lasts fifteen minutes or fifteen million years. You font want to go there. The worst thing about hell isn't its duration or even the temperatures. The worst thing about hell, is you have to pass through heaven to get there. And there's no going back.

May God be merciful to you, and richly bless you with the knowledge of His son.

Much Love. Much peace.

 

[timothyu]

You font want to go there.

No people don't, but they hope their enemies do. Such thinking will assure them a seat beside their enemies on the way down.

 

[RamiC]

I mean, when He told us to "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you", of course we were all supposed to understand that, all the while, the One who commanded us to love our enemies is planning to torture His enemies alive for eternity. >_>

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7 NIV

He either did say this, or He did not say it.

Since this is from a Gospel, and it is His words, you need some way to understand it which works better than arguing that "Love your enemies" means He is as bad a judge as us. His judgement is that of an omniscient, omnipresent, Creator of all things, who was willing to join us, as one of us, and suffer death (which He did not need to do, He chose), for us. We do not possess the same credibility.

 

[Brother Del]

No people don't, but they hope their enemies do. Such thinking will assure them a seat beside their enemies on the way down.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I certainly haven't noticed anyone wishing hell upon their enemies, perhaps I missed it.

There's a rather large gulf between warning and wishing. In fact, logic would suggest that anyone who cares enough to warn someone about hell, is doing their best to keep them from going there.

I understand that there are many who participate in these threads and talk of hell with a disturbing amount of glee, its sad.

For myself, preaching on hell, or at least the eternal fiery torment aspect, has never been my style.

But this is a thread about hell, is it not?

Christ mentioned it frequently, and used terms such as everlasting torment, unquenchable fire etc.

As believers, we shouldn't be too concerned about the details. But that does not mean that we should avoid the subject, or shy away from the clear teachings of scripture.

 

[Dan1988]

We humans (and His elohim).
His Will be done in earth as it is in Heaven

Yep, just as I suspected. You believe in "universalism", but the Bible doesn't teach any such nonsense.

You're suggesting that God doesn't know who His children are, and that He doesn't know who the Devils children are. Well I've got news for you, God knows every single one of His children, because He chose us before He cheated the world and He wrote our names ion His book of life. I include myself in the "us" because I am an elect saint of God.

Newsflash!, no child of the Devil can be a Child of God at the same time. You're suggesting that God is blind and clueless as to whom His children are and who the devils children are.

Why do you suppose that God commands the children of the Devil to obey Him. According to you, He does this because He's desperately trying to convince them to join His children. But there's the sad truth for you, God doesn't want them at all and they are already condemned.

Romans 8:7 states that the "carnal mind" is hostile to God and cannot submit to His law.

You say that the "us" is "we humans", but that's dead wrong as the verse above clearly shows.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Lord Jesus Christ felt so strongly about this place that "doesn't exist", that He suggested the cutting off and plucking out of body parts, if that's what it took to keep you from going there.

And while in the process of encouraging self mutilation, He said not a single word about
"annihilation". But rather, repeated three separate times "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"

I would suggest that gouging out ones physical eye was NOT what Jesus was referring to.

Here is said to be gouged eye, and good luck gouging what you can't "see."

Mark 7:21-23
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

I'm sure you heard the one about the believer who gouged out his physical right eye and quickly found out he was a left eye luster. Oops. Guess he didn't see the picture.

Details details, gotta read the fine print and it is so fine.

I don't mean to be unkind. I love you all, and with all the love of Christ within me. And it is because of that love that I humbly say to you. You better give heed to His words. You better stop arguing amongst yourselves and hear the words of the Master Himself. He created Hell, do you think He might just have some kind of an idea what He's talking about?

Some very small percentage of believers who believe ALL people will be saved actually DO BELIEVE there is an eternal hell/Lake of Fire also....

Here's the kicker:

FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS

Not our neighbors

And where did Jesus show us all the location of devils is you ask?

Why, that answer should be totally obvious to a seeing internal eye: The tempter tempts within our MINDS

Now, where is that knife? Better yet, the flaming sWord will do just fine

 

[Dan1988]

I didn’t know saying, “God is love” ( 1 John 4:8) is false. You keep saying that I am putting the Old Testament over the New by mentioning the commandments ( like Matthew 7:12 per Matthew 7:1-12, Matthew 22:36-40, Romans 13:8-10, per Romans 3:1-14?).

Yet you keep saying “God is hate” or is “also hate” in your revised mentions. Every verse that you can try to claim this from is from the Old Testament which you say I sm muddling with the New. The only thing God “hates” in the NT are the “deeds” ( Revelation 2:6) & “doctrines ( Revelation 2:15) of the Nicolatians. God ( the Lord Jesus Christ here) doesn’t say He hates the Nicolatians themselves. This is recorded by the Apostle John who also wrote “God is love” ( 1 John 4:8). 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 isn’t a hallmark card.

Paul speaks of the problem of works in Romans 3 based on boasting & exclusive, self righteousness towards the Gentiles ( Romans 3:27-31). Paul adds circumcision to this in Romans 4 by Abraham who lived by faith yet was the father of circumcision ( Romans 4:11-13) because some early circumcised Christians were insisting all had to be circumcised.

Living by faith involves living by the Lord’s commandments not assuming we can keep them but trusting in Him by them ( He promises us the Holy Spirit to counsel us in this per John 14:15-18). When we depart this earthly life salvation is ( Ephesians 2:8-9) while we are here, we are living life as Paul tells us in Romans 13:1-14, per Ephesians 2:8-10). These things should happen as a living witness in some form ( Matthew 5:14-20). We are warned to take care in living by faith ( Matthew 7:15-23). What are we supposed to be otherwise in daily life, stiff boards walking around in straight jackets?

You can dress your version of the gospel any way you like, but it's still the same false "saved by works" version.

Jacob Arminius invented the "saved by works" version of the gospel and 905 of professing Christians believe his version and reject what God has said, "saved by grace" "not by works".

I know your version gives you something to boast about, because you had to finish the work of salvation, which the Lord Jesus failed to finish on the cross.

 

[Brother Del]

I would suggest that gouging out ones physical eye was NOT what Jesus was referring to.

Here is said to be gouged eye, and good luck gouging what you can't "see."

Mark 7:21-23
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

I'm sure you heard the one about the believer who gouged out his physical right eye and quickly found out he was a left eye luster. Oops. Guess he didn't see the picture.

Details details, gotta read the fine print and it is so fine.

Some very small percentage of believers who believe ALL people will be saved actually DO BELIEVE there is an eternal hell/Lake of Fire also....

Here's the kicker:

FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS

Not our neighbors

And where did Jesus show us all the location of devils is you ask?

Why, that answer should be totally obvious to a seeing internal eye: The tempter tempts within our MINDS

Now, where is that knife? Better yet, the flaming sWord will do just fine

The evil eye that Christ referred to in Mark 7 was well understood by His audience, it was an Eastern idiom with multiple inferences, predominantly but not exclusively pertaining to envy or covetousness.
See Matthew 20:15

The passage I quoted was from Marks gospel, and immediately followed Christ's warning against offending children. One could argue that the offense Christ spoke of was of the worst kind, but I will not go that far without looking further into it.

However, whether Christ repeated Himself or Mark was quoting from the Sermon on the Mount cannot be established. In the Sermon on the Mount the context was clear, Christ's command to cut off your hand, or foot, or the plucking out of ones eye immediately followed His warnings against sexual sin, specifically that of adultery.

As for the notion that all people will be saved, its certainly a tender one, but completely unsupported by scripture. As one draws closer to God and begins to experience His heart for those who are perishing, combined with a deeper understanding of His infinite mercy and grace, it is natural to hope and pray that He will indeed pardon all who have not yet been touched by His love and renewed by His Spirit. I have prayed as much on numerous occasions, with faith, and fervently.

But fervently and prayerfully petitioning for an outcome is no guarantee that such a petition will be granted. In the end, as much as I would love to believe that at the very least, those who don't come to faith in Christ before there demise will be spared eternal punishment, to preach as much as a certainty of outcome is not a scriptural position, and must be avoided by any faithful expositor.

In the end, God alone is Righteous. He is perfectly just, perfectly merciful, and perfectly within His rights to dispense either judgment or mercy to whomever He will, and in whatsoever manner He decides.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The evil eye that Christ referred to in Mark 7 was well understood by His audience, it was an Eastern idiom with multiple inferences, predominantly but not exclusively pertaining to envy or covetousness.
See Matthew 20:15

Well, at least you moved off the physical eye, which was the general point

The passage I quoted was from Marks gospel, and immediately followed Christ's warning against offending children. One could argue that the offense Christ spoke of was of the worst kind, but I will not go that far without looking further into it.

My suggestion is that we know people by their fruits.

Love your neighbors as YOURSELF = GOOD FRUIT

Thinking they'll burn alive forever = You can not HATE your neighbors any more than this

I consider the later position a DEMONIC position and imposition. Nothing personal. Just identification of the parties

As for the notion that all people will be saved, its certainly a tender one, but completely unsupported by scripture.

Really? Jesus actually being the successful Savior of the WORLD doesn't convince you?

You'd rather have a loser in charge? I don't think so

 

[Brother Del]

Well, at least you moved off the physical eye, which was the general point

My suggestion is that we know people by their fruits.

Love your neighbors as YOURSELF = GOOD FRUIT

Thinking they'll burn alive forever = You can not HATE your neighbors any more than this

I consider the later position a DEMONIC position and imposition. Nothing personal. Just identification of the parties


Really? Jesus actually being the successful Savior of the WORLD doesn't convince you?

You'd rather have a loser in charge? I don't think so

If you insist on equating a love and reverence for God and His Holy Word as hatred for ones neighbor, by all means, carry on.

You seem to freely pick and choose whatever words suit your narrative at any given time, so I see no point in discussing this topic any further.

As I previously stated, God will do as He pleases. It is my sincere prayer that He chooses mercy. Whatever He actually does in the end, will undoubtedly be just.

Take care neighbor.