Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[Hentenza]

Again, the punctuation was added to scripture centuries later from the time of the original. It was at the discretion of the editor to add where they saw fit.

Not the editor but the scholars that translated the Bible from the original languages. It makes perfect sense to add a comma after the phrase “Truly I say to you”. Languages like Thai and Burmese still lack punctuation but are translated to English adding punctuation.

 

[timothyu]

So your “common sense” tells you that the comma should be after the word “today”

You don't seem to grasp the fact there were no commas in the original scripture, so it was at the discretion of humans centuries later where they put it, and you can bet they put it where their doctrine wanted it. It could just have easily said Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in lparadise. Either way no punctuation in the original.

 

[Hentenza]

You don't seem to grasp the fact there were no commas in the original scripture, so it was at the discretion of humans centuries later where they put it, and you can bet they put it where their doctrine wanted it.

You dont seem to grasp the fact that punctuation was indeed added as translating the Bible from the original languages that didn’t use punctuation to other languages that use punctuation became common. There is no conspiracy. Is merely typical translation methodology. In English we use punctuation. Imagine how confusing English text would read without punctuation.

 

[SarahsKnight]

That's the problem. People rely on tradition instead of common sense that come with an understanding of how man likes to make everything over in our own image..

Thus it has become evident to me that that image is an extremely carnal one that desires neverending vengeance over any Godly sense of justice, but with those such as Hentenza and Dan1998, they mistakenly assume that endless vengeance is God's brand of justice against sin and iniquity, when Scripture simply has not indictated that. And it just seems odd to me when they claim in so many ways that Jesus Himself was all for eternal torment, when He is the same Man who taught us to "love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you", AND rebuked one of His disciples when he used a sword to strike off the ear of one of the folk who had come to arrest Him and eventually lead Him to a painful death at the cross!

 

[timothyu]

There is no conspiracy.

9 centuries later they would have punctuated it according to their understanding and man had already done a good job of changing meanings so the possibility exists. They had even abandoned the Kingdom 6 centuries earlier to align themselves with Rome, so trustworthiness and credibility was no longer in their repertoire. Either way, yes the thief would be with Him in the Kingdom, but it matters not if it was that day or at the resurrection. It would be in the blink of an eye either way. Time flies when you're dead.

 

[Hentenza]

Thus it has become evident to me that that image is an extremely carnal one that desires neverending vengeance over any Godly sense of justice, but with those such as Hetenza and Dan1998, they mistakenly assume that endless vengeance is God's brand of justice against sin and iniquity, when Scripture simply has not indictated that. And it just seems odd to me when they claim in so many ways that Jesus Himself was all for eternal torment, when He is the same Man who taught us to "love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you", AND rebuked one of His disciples when he used a sword to strike off the ear of one of the folk who had come to arrest Him and eventually lead Him to a painful death at the cross!

Your arguments are based on an emotional fallacy and very little biblical evidence. Judging an infinite, ever-powerful God or His plan is a useless endeavor. When you arrive in heaven you are going to agree with everything that God has planned and done.

Secondly if you believe I am wrong then put forth your logical and biblical argument defending your position. Merely talking about whether other posters are wrong to other posters looks to much like gossip.

 

[Hentenza]

9 centuries later they would have punctuated it according to their understanding and man had already done a good job of changing meanings so the possibility exists. They had even abandoned the Kingdom 6 centuries earlier to align themselves with Rome, so trustworthiness and credibility was no longer in their repertoire. Either way, yes the thief would be with Him in the Kingdom, but it matters not if it was that day or at the resurrection.

It matters to those promoting the error of “soul sleep” which is why you should be careful with some people’s intentions and having the proper understanding of the verse.

 

[timothyu]

It matters to those promoting the error of “soul sleep” which is why you should be careful with some people’s intentions and having the proper understanding of the verse.

Human wisdom does not guarantee an absolute. Like I said, it can go either way but the result is the same. The thief following God's will placed him in the Kingdom.

 

[Hentenza]

Human wisdom does not guarantee an absolute. Like I said, it can go either way but the result is the same. The thief following God's will placed him in the Kingdom.

I don’t buy that. The rules of grammar and syntax dictate, in most cases, what punctuation mark should be used. Secondly, the rules of punctuation dictate that we place a comma after introductory participial phrases, like the one in Luke 23:43, and that we set off direct quotations with a comma. We also capitalize the first word of a direct quotation. Without punctuation most people would not be able to read and understand the Bible.

 

[timothyu]

I don’t buy that.

Doesn't matter. The issue revolving around this scripture was not when the thief would join Him, but why he got to when the other thief wouldn't.

 

[Dan1988]

The definition is in the New Testament and the Lord summed in His commandments to us ( Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:36-40 etc.) which originally are in the Old Testament ( Deuteronomy 6:4, Leviticus 19:18). You will notice that the golden rule ( Matthew 7:12 per Matthew 7:1-12) is the “LAW & PROPHETS” and that on God’s commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40 etc.) are which the “LAW & PROPHETS” hang or are dependent on.

You have something against the Gospel? I don’t claim any right to speak for God but to obey His commandments ( however wretchedly I do) but He tells us to ( John 14:15-18). The ultimate thing God “hates” is evil and that is what we are allowed to “hate” ( Amos 5:14-15). I would take care to not rationalize any idea of self justification as being justified by what God may “hate.”

I would carefully read ( Isaiah 55:1-12) especially Isaiah 55:8 ( I know ya did so what am I telling you huh?) well reread it and the Lord’s commandments.

No man has ever been able to keep any commandment. God gave His people the commandments so they can see that they are totally depraved.
God knows full well that it's impossible for any man to keep any of His commandments. By giving the commandments, God has the legal and moral right to punish all those who break any one of them (that's all of us).

Nobody can claim thewy sinned in ignorance, even those who were born n isolated parts of the world and never heard of the commandments, are still guilty because God wrote His law on their hearts, so they are without excuse.

What this cold harsh reality boils down to, is that there's nothing good in me and you. We were born dead in our sin, we inherited our sin nature from Adam. As such, we all naturally love sin and hate God. And we are born into slavery to Satan, because He has the legal right to enslave us,, since Adam rejected God and served Satan instead.

God doesn't save someone, by helping them to change from being carnal (wicked) to spiritual (good). No God must first kill the person (metaphorically) kill their old nature and give them the gift of His Holy Spirit (born again), where the old things have passed away and all things become new.

This new man, doesn't attain "sinless perfection" in this life. That happens in the life to come, when we are transformed into the image of His Son, in a twinkling of an eye. We receive our glorified, immortal bodies and we inherit all the treasures of the universe.

None of this is achieved by a sinner, who is dead in his sin, making a choice to obey the God he hates. Salvation is of the Lord, He is the Autor and finisher of our faith. Yes we do good, works because the Holy Spirit is working to transform us in this life, so if we obey any commandment or do any good works, it's because He is leading us and helping us o obey and do good works.

It's all about Him, our old nature demands praise and self promotion, it cries out to have it's lust satisfied, so it's a constant struggle against our old nature, just as Paul described this battle by saying that he doesn't do the good that he would do, but he does the evil that he doesn't want to do.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

And it just seems odd to me when they claim in so many ways that Jesus Himself was all for eternal torment, when He is the same Man who taught us to "love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you", AND rebuked one of His disciples when he used a sword to strike off the ear of one of the folk who had come to arrest Him and eventually lead Him to a painful death at the cross!

You seem to think eternal death makes your position better? Uh, no.

Jesus did present eternal torture, for the devil and his messengers, beyond any doubt. So there's that.

And, Jesus does save all people, you know, being the Savior of the world, so there's that as well.

The interesting part IS, the habitation of devils is in mankind, so it makes it problematic to parse out the parties, one from the other.

Tempter ever tempt you? Welcome to scriptural reality. You might be glad to see the tempter in hell where it belongs

 

[Dan1988]

The definition is in the New Testament and the Lord summed in His commandments to us ( Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:36-40 etc.) which originally are in the Old Testament ( Deuteronomy 6:4, Leviticus 19:18). You will notice that the golden rule ( Matthew 7:12 per Matthew 7:1-12) is the “LAW & PROPHETS” and that on God’s commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40 etc.) are which the “LAW & PROPHETS” hang or are dependent on.

You have something against the Gospel? I don’t claim any right to speak for God but to obey His commandments ( however wretchedly I do) but He tells us to ( John 14:15-18). The ultimate thing God “hates” is evil and that is what we are allowed to “hate” ( Amos 5:14-15). I would take care to not rationalize any idea of self justification as being justified by what God may “hate.”

I would carefully read ( Isaiah 55:1-12) especially Isaiah 55:8 ( I know ya did so what am I telling you huh?) well reread it and the Lord’s commandments.

Your denomination, obviously teaches "legalism", that simply means that you guys believe that you will be saved by keeping the law/commandments. But God has never ever said that anyone will be saved by keeping the law or commandments.
The only reason God gave the commandments was to show mankind how evil we are.

You know, I know and God knows that it's impossible for any man to keep any commandment. You won't find a single verse to support this idea that we can keep the law or commandments.
I try not to sin, but IO have sinned every single day of my life and I know that I will continue to sin every single day for the rest of my life. But I thank God that the Lord Jesus paid for every one of my past sins, and every one of my present sins and every one of my future sins.

If I could keep the law and commandments, then Christ died suffered and for nothing. None of the verses you referred to above say that a mans salvation depends on his ability to keep the commandments, so I don't know why you keep trying to make them say what they are not saying.

 

[Dan1988]

Oooooh, another eternal torment champion implicitly condemning us to hell simply because we don't share in his sick imaginations about what he personally thinks should happen to his enemies in the afterlife, sic burn! (No pun intended at that last part, Julie. XD )

I am shocked by this, I tell you!

Yes, you ought to be shocked. The Bible doctrine of hell, is a very sobering and shocking doctrine to fresh converts and new commers. But I'm sure you will eventually come to the table. You can deny the doctrine, all, you want, but that will never change the truth of the matter.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Yes, you ought to be shocked. The Bible doctrine of hell, is a very sobering and shocking doctrine to fresh converts and new commers. But I'm sure you will eventually come to the table. You can deny the doctrine, all, you want, but that will never change the truth of the matter.

I was once at the table, actually, for the first twelve years of my time as a believer. Thirteen years years after that, and I still intend to never return to "the table". Just because eternal torment and inherently immortality of the soul is the popular/mainstream doctrine among Christians doesn't mean it is the correct one. Far as I am concerned, it is worldly, carnal, pagan, and most of all, lacking in Scriptural evidence.

 

[SarahsKnight]

And, Jesus does save all people, you know, being the Savior of the world, so there's that as well.

EDIT: Added a very important "not" at the end, there, as I meant to originally.


Do you assume that I abhor the thought of that being true, like Dan1988 does with his "God is hate" nonsense on the previous page? Not at all. I cannot deny that universal reconciliation (I assume that is the position you take with these words) does have some Scriptural evidence - more than eternal torment, actually - and I would be overjoyed to find out that it was the true interpretation in the end. I only take up the conditional immortality stance because it has more evidence in Scripture to me than the other two positions: universalism and eternal torment. But I pray almost daily that the Lord has mercy on us all despite our sins, and saves us all through Jesus Christ one way or another, and I most certainly do not presume to cry out for His mercy and forgiveness while demanding that others are left in the dark of unforgiveness and wrath forever.

 

[timothyu]

The only reason God gave the commandments was to show mankind how evil we are.

And to command us to put His will ahead of our own, thus loving all as self.

 

[Lukaris]

Your denomination, obviously teaches "legalism", that simply means that you guys believe that you will be saved by keeping the law/commandments. But God has never ever said that anyone will be saved by keeping the law or commandments.
The only reason God gave the commandments was to show mankind how evil we are.

You know, I know and God knows that it's impossible for any man to keep any commandment. You won't find a single verse to support this idea that we can keep the law or commandments.
I try not to sin, but IO have sinned every single day of my life and I know that I will continue to sin every single day for the rest of my life. But I thank God that the Lord Jesus paid for every one of my past sins, and every one of my present sins and every one of my future sins.

If I could keep the law and commandments, then Christ died suffered and for nothing. None of the verses you referred to above say that a mans salvation depends on his ability to keep the commandments, so I don't know why you keep trying to make them say what they are not saying.

No man has ever been able to keep any commandment. God gave His people the commandments so they can see that they are totally depraved.
God knows full well that it's impossible for any man to keep any of His commandments. By giving the commandments, God has the legal and moral right to punish all those who break any one of them (that's all of us).

Nobody can claim thewy sinned in ignorance, even those who were born n isolated parts of the world and never heard of the commandments, are still guilty because God wrote His law on their hearts, so they are without excuse.

What this cold harsh reality boils down to, is that there's nothing good in me and you. We were born dead in our sin, we inherited our sin nature from Adam. As such, we all naturally love sin and hate God. And we are born into slavery to Satan, because He has the legal right to enslave us,, since Adam rejected God and served Satan instead.

God doesn't save someone, by helping them to change from being carnal (wicked) to spiritual (good). No God must first kill the person (metaphorically) kill their old nature and give them the gift of His Holy Spirit (born again), where the old things have passed away and all things become new.

This new man, doesn't attain "sinless perfection" in this life. That happens in the life to come, when we are transformed into the image of His Son, in a twinkling of an eye. We receive our glorified, immortal bodies and we inherit all the treasures of the universe.

None of this is achieved by a sinner, who is dead in his sin, making a choice to obey the God he hates. Salvation is of the Lord, He is the Autor and finisher of our faith. Yes we do good, works because the Holy Spirit is working to transform us in this life, so if we obey any commandment or do any good works, it's because He is leading us and helping us o obey and do good works.

It's all about Him, our old nature demands praise and self promotion, it cries out to have it's lust satisfied, so it's a constant in struggle against our old nature, just as Paul described this battle by saying that he doesn't do the good that he would do, but he does the evil that he doesn't want to do.

I responded to your false statement “God is hate” with a definition that God is love and He tells us that is also His commandment to us. I made no claim that any of us can actually keep the commandments or achieve any kind of “sinless perfection”.

Now you go off into to some accusations of “works based salvation” of which I said no such thing. I was concentrating on the fact that God is NOT “hate.”

Your presumption that I was speaking about “works based salvation” is incorrect and an ignorant accusation. I understand the context of where the commandments & works apply to living by faith ( Romans 1:17, Romans 13:1-14, Colossians 1:1-29 especially verses 10 through 24) that these are of the liberty in which Jesus Christ frees us from the yoke of bondage ( Galatians 5:1-26. We are saved by grace to walk in faith for good works ( Ephesians 2:8-10).

I think anyone should read Romans 16:17-19 to consider in your way of posting.

 

[Hentenza]

Far as I am concerned, it is worldly, carnal, pagan, and most of all, lacking in Scriptural evidence.

So make your argument. Opinions do not count.

 

[Dan1988]

I was once at the table, actually, for the first twelve years of my time as a believer. Thirteen years years after that, and I still intend to never return to "the table". Just because eternal torment and inherently immortality of the soul is the popular/mainstream doctrine among Christians doesn't mean it is the correct one. Far as I am concerned, it is worldly, carnal, pagan, and most of all, lacking in Scriptural evidence.

Let me assure you that God is not seeking your advice, or approval for anything He does. In fact you have nothing to offer Him at all, so it's not as though His Church is missing your service.

The Bible doctrine of "Eternal Conscious Torment" is abundantly clear. You just can't get around it, because Jesus did describe it in great detail. And yes it is eternal torment, and yes the pain of burning alive is not metaphorical, it's just as real as we feel it in this life, only mush worse than we can imagine.

It's not healthy or safe to for you to put yourself in Gods place, and say it's not fair. And you're right it's not fair in our puny little minds, but les not pretend that God has to obey our dictates and lets remember that His ways are infinitely higher than ours, and they are beyond our understanding.

If I could encourage you in anything, it would be to trust in the Lord and don't put Him on trial.

I'm not going to give you a long list of scriptures confirming the bible doctrine of hell, because I feel you won't approach them to be edified or instructed, but you will instead try to deny them.