Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[Light of the East]

I read most of it. You sure like to accuse others. I even googled others like it and am still not convinced. The scholarship questioning it is of recent origin.

So what you are saying is that if it takes time to come to a correct conclusion, that scholarship is questionable? You are saying that either people question the dogma immediately or it is not a good objection?

And I asked you what the official position of the EO church but you ignored that because is probably going to be different than yours.

Hmmmmm . . . I thought I answered this, but I will state again. There is NO OFFICIAL CATECHISM in the Orthodox Church. I was told this by a priest, no less. The Roman Church has an official book. We do not. Therefore, we are free to hold to any particular eschatology which we feel is in line with Scripture and does not violate the Creed.

 

[Light of the East]

I know the Bible just fine and I could just as easily tell you to stop listening to unorthodox lies.


This verse does not teach repentance after death at all. Verses 21-22 tell you the context of the parable that follows. The question relates to your brother here on earth not in the afterlife. It would be quite the stretch to interpret it your way.

Your interpretation. I think you are wrong, based on corollary passages in the Scriptures which address the idea of cleansing after death. For instance, Matthew 13:42, which speaks of the wicked being put into a smelting furnace. I'm sure you know what smelting is. Why would God do that if He is not going to bring them to cleanliness and forgiveness?

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires, take the water of life without cost.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 22:14-17 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th | New American Standard Bible

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th

bible.com

You appear to have missed the point I was making about the chronology of Revelation 21 and 22. The Spirit and the Bride offer the Water of Life to anyone who is thirsty. Now tell me, are the righteous, who have drunk of the Holy Spirit, still thirsty? Can't be! They have had their thirst assuaged. This must be talking about the wicked who are in the Lake of Fire being purified. There comes a point when resistance to Christ is broken down and the soul cries out in repentance and mercy.

Read verse 14. There are 2 types of people here, those who washed their robes and those who did not (still in their sin). The invitation is for those who washed their robes not for those outside of the walls. In fact those outside of the wall are the ones that are kept apart from God.

Yes, they are in the Lake of Fire. But you cannot make a case that they are there forever. Scripture doesn't point to any length of stay in those verses. You are assuming that.

I prefer to think of God as just and loving as He is described throughout scripture but God also said that He will save whom He wants. I see very little reason for Christ to go through such a horrendous death to justify those who believe then at the end all regardless of faith are also saved. The scriptures spend a lot space teaching that faith is required for salvation and that faith is now not later. Repent because the kingdom of Heaven is near. Why preach that if repentance can be later? Why preach that if repentance is possible after the kingdom of Heaven is here? As much as I would like to close my eyes and believe as you do this doctrine is not biblical.

So what you are really saying is that He does not wish to save everyone. How utterly Calvinist of you!
Why preach repentance now? Do you really want to go through the fires of God's chastisement? Do you somehow think that is going to be a mere matter, a bit of a picnic overall? If so, you have never experienced the chastening of God and I will tell you from experience, I don't want to go through it again. Agony, pain, despair, the whole gamut of negative feelings and experience. No, sir, repent NOW and avoid something that you really, REALLY do not wish to go through.


Question: putting aside your references to certain Scriptures and just going from a philosophical and emotional view of this, what terrible thing do you think comes to pass if God cleanses everyone?

 

[Light of the East]

There is no universalism in Eastern Orthodoxy. We read John 5:24-30 for the departed in our funeral services for the hope in the salvation of the departed soul ( 1 Corinthians 13:12-13)Shortly before the fast of Lent leading up to Pascha ( Easter) we also observe Sunday of the Judgement in reading Matthew 25:31-46 which is pretty clear on the reality of heaven & hell.

Sunday of Meatfare of the Last Judgment

Today’s Gospel reading is Matthew 25:31-46, the parable of the Last Judgment. It reminds us that while trusting in Christ’s love and mercy, we must not forget His righteous judgment when He comes again in glory. If our hearts remain hardened and unrepentant, we should not expect the…

www.oca.org

Plus also from Matins leading up to the Sunday Liturgy of the Last Judgment:




The books will be opened * and the deeds of all mankind will be revealed *


before the dread judgment seat; * the whole vale of sorrow shall echo * with the


fearful and despairing sounds of lamentation, * at seeing all who have sinned


being sent by Thy just judgment * to everlasting torment, weeping in vain. *


Therefore we beseech Thee, O compassionate One: * Spare us who hymn Thy


praises, ** for Thou alone art plenteous in mercy.

https://st-sergius.org/services/triod/0-37.pdf

And yet, there is so much hymnody in Orthodoxy that points to Universal Restoration. Honestly, Orthodox needs to make up its mind once and for all in this matter, and either eliminate the hymns that promise damnation and woe, or eliminate the hymns that promise salvation and resurrection for all.

Brad Jersak has written an article about this:

“Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

by Brad (Reader Irenaeus) Jersak, Ph.D. “The primary means of theological education in the Orthodox Church is through worship.” ~ Archbishop (ret.) Lazar Puhalo Hymnody as Theology I began my deca…

afkimel.wordpress.com

 

[Light of the East]

Laugh. Out. Loud! That just sounds so authoritative. So spiritual. I can see why you are so impressed by it …

David Bentley Hart does not hide his . . . disgust . . . for Emperor Justinian, calling him a "thug" and a "wanna be theologian."

 

[Hentenza]

Your interpretation. I think you are wrong, based on corollary passages in the Scriptures which address the idea of cleansing after death. For instance, Matthew 13:42, which speaks of the wicked being put into a smelting furnace. I'm sure you know what smelting is. Why would God do that if He is not going to bring them to cleanliness and forgiveness?

I’ve heard this argument quite a few times before. It still does not hold water. You presume that the furnace is a smelting furnace but “smelting” does not appear in the verse and yet you make your argument on the properties of a word that is not there.

“and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭42‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 13:42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

bible.com

You appear to have missed the point I was making about the chronology of Revelation 21 and 22. The Spirit and the Bride offer the Water of Life to anyone who is thirsty. Now tell me, are the righteous, who have drunk of the Holy Spirit, still thirsty? Can't be! They have had their thirst assuaged. This must be talking about the wicked who are in the Lake of Fire being purified. There comes a point when resistance to Christ is broken down and the soul cries out in repentance and mercy.



Yes, they are in the Lake of Fire. But you cannot make a case that they are there forever. Scripture doesn't point to any length of stay in those verses. You are assuming that.

I can make the case and I did. There is no invitation for the wicked. The wicked remain outside of the wall. You cannot make the argument that the wicked are included in the invitation otherwise why make such a distinction between the two and use the image of clean robes.

Secondly, the verse is clear who has the right to the tree of life and who may enter the city gate. Those outside do not have the right to the tree of life nor do they have an invitation to enter the city gates.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th | New American Standard Bible

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th

bible.com

So what you are really saying is that He does not wish to save everyone. How utterly Calvinist of you!

Im not a Calvinist and merely referenced Rom. 9:15-18. I thought you knew the Bible.

Why preach repentance now? Do you really want to go through the fires of God's chastisement? Do you somehow think that is going to be a mere matter, a bit of a picnic overall? If so, you have never experienced the chastening of God and I will tell you from experience, I don't want to go through it again. Agony, pain, despair, the whole gamut of negative feelings and experience. No, sir, repent NOW and avoid something that you really, REALLY do not wish to go through.

This, again, is not biblical.

Question: putting aside your references to certain Scriptures and just going from a philosophical and emotional view of this, what terrible thing do you think comes to pass if God cleanses everyone?

Look, God wants everyone to be saved. He provided the means for everyone to be saved the same way that He provided Israel the means to be saved. Just as Christ lamented for Jerusalem that they were not willing and were then left desolate (Matt 23:37) so are a number of people that are not willing to accept the gift of salvation and remain in their sins. I hope and pray that all will accept the gospel within their lives.

 

[Jipsah]

If Caesar exists or not.

Caesar doesn't exist, end of. Nero was the last of the Julian line, and he cashed in his chips in AD 68. Romulus "Augustulus" (little Augustus) was the last emperor of Rome, and he left all earthly care in the the late 5th or early 6th century.

 

[Jipsah]

Look, God wants everyone to be saved.

Yeah, it always comes back to "God wants everyone saved, But There's Just Nothing He Can Do".

I hope and pray that all will accept the gospel within their lives.

What good does praying do if God Himself is powerless to save anyone who's too dumb to get with the program?

 

[Jipsah]

Honor to whom honor is due.

For instance?

 

[Lukaris]

And yet, there is so much hymnody in Orthodoxy that points to Universal Restoration. Honestly, Orthodox needs to make up its mind once and for all in this matter, and either eliminate the hymns that promise damnation and woe, or eliminate the hymns that promise salvation and resurrection for all.

Brad Jersak has written an article about this:

“Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

by Brad (Reader Irenaeus) Jersak, Ph.D. “The primary means of theological education in the Orthodox Church is through worship.” ~ Archbishop (ret.) Lazar Puhalo Hymnody as Theology I began my deca…

afkimel.wordpress.com

And yet, there is so much hymnody in Orthodoxy that points to Universal Restoration. Honestly, Orthodox needs to make up its mind once and for all in this matter, and either eliminate the hymns that promise damnation and woe, or eliminate the hymns that promise salvation and resurrection for all.

Brad Jersak has written an article about this:

“Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

by Brad (Reader Irenaeus) Jersak, Ph.D. “The primary means of theological education in the Orthodox Church is through worship.” ~ Archbishop (ret.) Lazar Puhalo Hymnody as Theology I began my deca…

afkimel.wordpress.com

In John 3:16-21, it is mentioned in verse 17 that world might be saved but the verses ultimately say there is salvation or condemnation. When we pray our confession before receiving the Eucharist, we pray that the Lord consider us worthy to receive without condemnation, remission of sins for eternal life. Isn’t this what is ultimately about in regards to salvation or condemnation like the Lord says in John 3:16-21 not to mention John 6:1-71 ( verses 41-59 in particular).

We are to pray before the Eucharist:


I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, in knowledge or in ignorance. And make me worthy, without condemnation, to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the remission of sins and for eternal life. Amen

The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - Orthodox Church

Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostomos

www.goarch.org

 

[Jipsah]

Can you please show me a single place where I claimed that man is born immortal, I would never make such a silly statement in the first place. You have your presuppositions, based on your denominational bias. I'm not trying to promote any denominational doctrines, I'm only interested in the truth of the gospel.
I'd be grateful to anyone who can correct me if I make any unbiblical claims. Iron sharpens iron, so there is much to gain by allowing Gods Word to correct us.

The Bible interprets the Bible, there are no lies or contradictions with Gods Word, but there's plenty wrong with human reason and human understanding. That's why we can't approach the Bible with in a way where we become the final authority on what the true interpretation every doctrine is.

The Lord Jesus always spoke about "life" in terms of those of us who are alive in Him. And He always spoke about death in terms of being dead in trespasses and sin.
He is life, and sin is death. So we're not talking biology here, we know this body is a temporary temple for the soul. This body became a body of death, when death spread to all men from Adam.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned".

If you are not born again during this life, you will suffer the second death, which is identical to the first one you already suffered at conception. But the second death is to inherit eternal dead, with no hope of salvation in all eternity. One may try to repent and beg for mercy but no mercy will be shown and they will remain in hell for all eternity.

The Bible states that it is appointed for all men to die once, but it also says that those who were not converted during their earthy life, will be cast into hell.

So everybody has Eternal Life, either in Heaven or in hell. So the wages of sin isn't death at all, but eternal life in hell.

they suffer Eternal Conscience Torment in Hell.

And one has to be alive to be conscious in perdition.

Death is being separated from God for all eternity

But one would pretty much have to be alive to care, wouldn't you say?

so they experience dying and death forever while they are fully conscience with all of their feelings intact.

IE, they're alive. Eternally.

And that's the fate of the vast majority of those who've ever lived.

 

[Hentenza]

Yeah, it always comes back to "God wants everyone saved, But There's Just Nothing He Can Do".

What good does praying do if God Himself is powerless to save anyone who's too dumb to get with the program?

It always goes back to the emotional fallacy argument. And let’s not forget the straw man to give it flavor.

 

[Aaron112]

What good does praying do if God Himself is powerless to save anyone who's too dumb to get with the program?

Like what good does it do for a mouse to pray to the cat god , the cat protector that turns the mice over to the cat?!

Who can understand anything ? A prayer that God does not listen to, has no answer at all.

 

[Jipsah]

It always goes back to the emotional fallacy argument. And let’s not forget the straw man to give it flavor.

Which fallacy, and what straw man? I know you've heard the terms, but how do they apply here?

Fact is, you admit that God wants everyone saved, but you don't He's willing or able to make it happen. Right? Human dimwittery thwarts God's will. I say that's rubbish.

 

[Jipsah]

Like what good does it do for a mouse to pray to the cat god , the cat protector that turns the mice over to the cat?!

That one's a few too many for me. We're mice, and God is a Cat God? You're gonna have to 'plain that analogy for me.

A prayer that God does not listen to, has no answer at all.

I'll mark you down as "undecided".

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I have a problem with God creating sentient beings for no other purpose than to torture them without relief. That seems rather sadistic to me and not at all like love.

I'd suggest it's more like an anti-heaven for antiChrist spirits. Heaven in reverse

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Not all Caesars were deified.

One walking wet dust pile is no better than another

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

They have had their thirst assuaged. This must be talking about the wicked who are in the Lake of Fire being purified. There comes a point when resistance to Christ is broken down and the soul cries out in repentance and mercy.

Let me get this straight for the record.

Are you promoting Satanic salvation or not?

I don't believe any of official orthodoxy goes that route that I'm aware of.

 

[jonojim1337]

One walking wet dust pile is no better than another

They weren’t judged by their flesh.

 

[jonojim1337]

For instance?

Literally everything belongs to Caesar before the rebel lets stole it. The titles as well.

 

[Hentenza]

Which fallacy, and what straw man? I know you've heard the terms, but how do they apply here?

Fact is, you admit that God wants everyone saved, but you don't He's willing or able to make it happen. Right? Human dimwittery thwarts God's will. I say that's rubbish.

Answer below.

Yeah, it always comes back to "God wants everyone saved, But There's Just Nothing He Can Do".

Emotional fallacy and a Strawman. No one here has argued that at all. The emotional fallacy comes from “attempting” to show an absurdity that is not present.

What good does praying do if God Himself is powerless to save anyone who's too dumb to get with the program?

Strawman. No one here has argued that God is powerless and that people are too dumb.

Learn your fallacies.