Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

Dan1988 said:

You claim to trust "ALL" that is written in the Holy Scriptures, while rejecting or refusing to accept those which contradict your "denominational views".
You approach to the Holy Scriptures, doesn't allow them to speak to you, because you "cherry pick" verses of the Bible.

Whenever I present verses which contradict your denominations teaching, you simply look for other verses which seem to support your view. But the problem with that type of defence is that, it relies on the premiss that there are contradictions in the Bible and everyone is free to hold to their own opposing views and there is no absolute truth in the Bible.

I don't believe there are any errors or contradictions or mixed messages in the Bible. I have invited you to show me a single verse to support your opinion that there are only two kinds of death in the Bible, but you have failed to do so. I have also asked you to find a single verse to support your opinion that hell is not a place where sinners experience "Eternal Conscience Torment", and again you have failed to find a single verse to support these doctrines you hold to.

You believe in the "cessation of existence or annihilation", but you have never found a single verse of scripture to support this private opinion either. you are entitled to your private opinion, but you can't claim that it true or correct without any evidence, apart from "it seems right in your own eyes", but the Bible has something to say about "mans private opinion" --

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death".
or
Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

I understand that you are currently studying the Bible, and glad to hear that you are. Let me encourage you to continue, and allow me to share something I came to realise after studying the Bible for around three years. I had to discard and abandon many of the views and doctrines, which I held onto firmly.

It was very difficult to face the awful truth of the gospel, and allow the bible to interpret the bible. It meant that I had zero control over anything the Bible says. So, instead of me reading the Bible and drawing to conclusions, the Bible was reading me and showing me that I'm not called to evaluate or scrutinize Gods Word. Instead, God speaks for Himself through His Holy Spirit.

I found that every faithful believer, arrives at the same conclusions, because they are all led by the same Holy Spirit. We can look back over 2000 years of Church history and see the Church fathers holding to the exact same theology and doctrines, going right back to the Apostles.

Going back to our topic, I'd like to clarify what I said about man stepping into eternity. I never suggested that man's earthly body is immortal in it's present state. But all born again believers will receive their perfect, sinless, glorified "eternal" or "immortal" bodies in the life to come. We will be Chris like.
But our corrupt bodies of death, will be transformed, so there will be no corruption in us.

Likewise, all unbelievers will be resurrected and reunited with their corrupt earthly bodies and they will be cast into hell and they will feel the fires just as they would if they were back on earth, except their worm will never die and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Ceasing to exist will not be an option.

There are only two kinds of existence in the Bible, "Life" and "Death". Those who are in Christ have life, those who are outside of Christ are "Dead", but not the death that many hope for. Those who are walking around dead on earth right now, will remain in their spiritually dead state forever, if they are not born again.
The rich man who was tormented in hell, asked Abraham if somebody could warn his five brothers back on earth, not to come to this place of torment. But he said, they have the prophets and scriptures. If they don't believe them, they won't believe one who comes back from the dead to warn them.

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Your zealous promotion of your adopted religious philosophy, and your judgements against me notwithstanding, you asked me a question.

"Can you please show me a single place where I claimed that man is born immortal, I would never make such a silly statement in the first place."

Therefore, I posted two of your statements where you clearly promote the popular religious philosophy that humans are immortal. Some spend immortality in heaven with God, and some spend eternity being tortured with the demons who deceived them. I posted your own words where you preach to others that humans are immortal. I posed the question, if they are not born with immortality, which you and I believe is "Silly", then where did this Immortality that your statements claim they have, come from?

You didn't address the question, which is the most relevant question there is to ask, concerning the teaching that humans are immortal. I wish you had.

For me, I believe Jesus when HE said to "fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell fire", but "many", who come in Christ's Name, have chosen not to believe Him. When Jesus says "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise "perish".", I believe Jesus, but "many" who promote the philosophies of this world's religious system don't believe Him.

The Scriptures teach, "The Soul that sins shall die", not the "soul that sins shall be granted immortality, then be tortured fort eternity with the immortal angels that deceived them.

I have considered Lazarus and the Rich man, but not as a verse to separate from the rest of the Bible, and then used to support the teaching that all humans are immortal. But I added this verse with all the other verses concerning the resurrection, and studied them.

A few things you didn't mention, is that the Rich man wasn't cognoscente of the time that had passed between Abraham's resurrection and his. He had remained dead for a 1000 years while Abraham and Lazarus were reigning with Christ after Christ's Return. That's a pretty large "Gulf" that existed between them. This means he didn't know his brothers were dead as well.

Luke 16 consists a group of Parables Jesus taught the people.

You have said in your statements "Death is being separated from God for all eternity, so they experience dying an d death forever while they are fully conscience with all of their feelings intact."

And yet in the Parable of Jesus you use to promote that all men are immortal, the Rich man was in the presence of God, and not only Him, but in the presence of Abraham and Lazarus as well. Surely you can see the contradiction.

Now understand that I believe I are free to adopt and promote whatever religious philosophy you want in my view, and I am only sharing the reasons why I don't believe in this popular religious philosophy, that all men are immortal.

And it is because of consideration of "ALL" Scriptures that I believe this. It is written in the Holy Scriptures:

Deut. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set before you" life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed "may live":

This popular religious philosophy that God lied to all these people who chose "Death", and chose instead to give them immortality, and torture them forever along with the immortal angels that deceived them, is an awful and wicked judgment against God, and is not supported by Scriptures, if all of God's Words are considered, in my view.

It would be helpful if you could show us when God granted these men immortality, since you believe it is Silly to suggest they were born with it.

Perhaps I missed it in my studies. If you could show me where God directed Moses and the Prophets to teach us that all men are immortal, I would greatly appreciate it. The way it stands right now in my understanding, "If a man doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets, that the soul that sins "shall die", then neither will they be persuaded by Jesus, who rose from the dead, when HE teaches, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Hentenza said:

I think the idea here has nothing to do with the sin but with doing what glorifies God. Jesus answered that neither had sinned (him or his parents). His sight being restored made the beggar a witness to Christ and, therefore, is doing God’s work.

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I completely concur. The point of the beggar‘s blindness was to glorify the father through the works of the Son. I’m simply trying to point out, somehow in the minds of the disciples, the man could have sinned “before” he was born. Perhaps an idea impressed upon them from pagan influences but nonetheless, the idea is noted in thought via divine inspiration of the Scriptures. As I stated earlier, I find it intriguing … but I’m not advocating the teaching of reincarnation.

blessngs,

Studyman said:

Deut. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set before you" life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed "may live":

This popular religious philosophy that God lied to all these people who chose "Death", and chose instead to give them immortality, and torture them forever along with the immortal angels that deceived them, is an awful and wicked judgment against God, and is not supported by Scriptures, if all of God's Words are considered, in my view.

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I see universalists and annihilationists use the verse in Deuteronomy to suggest death but this verse is not talking about the afterlife but about their lives here on earth as they enter the promised land.

““See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, in that I am commanding you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.””
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30‬:‭15‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice the bold text above strictly talking about the land not about the afterlife. Notice the mention of “your life and the length of your days”. Nothing here about the afterlife.

And to address the eternality of both heaven and hell consider two verses.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭41‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

There verses leave very little room to argue that, just as life is eternal, so is hell (the second death).

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:

I completely concur. The point of the beggar‘s blindness was to glorify the father through the works of the Son. I’m simply trying to point out, somehow in the minds of the disciples, the man could have sinned “before” he was born. Perhaps an idea impressed upon them from pagan influences but nonetheless, the idea is noted in thought via divine inspiration of the Scriptures. As I stated earlier, I find it intriguing … but I’m not advocating the teaching of reincarnation.

blessngs,

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Definitely. The verses and teaching are indeed interesting.

Hentenza said:

I see universalists and annihilationists use the verse in Deuteronomy to suggest death but this verse is not talking about the afterlife but about their lives here on earth as they enter the promised land.

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I don't know anything about "universalists and annihilationists," and these are both man-made terms of judgment used by the promoters of the Philosophies of this world's religious system, that God placed me in. These Word's of God most certainly doesn't support the popular religious philosophy that humans are created, or are all given immortality prior to, of after the resurrection.

Hentenza said:

““See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, in that I am commanding you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.””
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30‬:‭15‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, in that I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His sta | New American Standard Bibl

“See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, in that I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His sta

bible.com

Notice the bold text above strictly talking about the land not about the afterlife. Notice the mention of “your life and the length of your days”. Nothing here about the afterlife.

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This is because there is "No After Life" unless God raises them from the dead. The term "Afterlife" doesn't exist in Scriptures at all. It is taken from ancient pagan religious tradition, and injected into the Gospel of God by men who crept in unawares. The entire Gospel is founded on the "HOPE" and belief that God will raise men from the dead, and grant to them the right to the Tree of Life, that they may take of the fruit therein, and eat, and thereby living forever.

I posted the Scriptures regarding this tree of life given to us at the beginning of the Holy scriptures, and the end. Sadly, the philosophy that men become immortal without the Tree of Life, or without receiving immortality from God is a very popular religious philosophy adopted by many, who call Jesus Lord, Lord. I asked you to provide for me a scriptures which teaches that God gives all men immortality.

You have not yet provided such a Scripture, and in my understanding, this is because such a scripture doesn't exist. But Scriptures which teach that the wages of sin is "Death", not some form of an "Afterlife", are all over the Bible from the beginning to the end of scriptures.

REv. 2: 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will "kill her children" with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Hentenza said:

And to address the eternality of both heaven and hell consider two verses.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

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Yes, men who "believe" in the Christ, "of the Bible" shall not perish forever, but will be raised from the dead, and given Eternal Life, as it is written.

"For this mortal, must put on immortality".

Hentenza said:

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭41‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

bible.com

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

There verses leave very little room to argue that, just as life is eternal, so is hell (the second death).

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This verse simply says the Fire is eternal, as it should given this Fire is created and reserved for immortal angels that deceived the men of this world. But humans are not immortal unless they receive immortality from God.

Can you please show me even one Scripture, where the unrighteous, whose names are not written in the Book of Life, receive immortality from God?

And if you can't find any such scripture, then perhaps you might consider that it is a philosophy and tradition of man, and not God. And then perhaps "beware" that you are not spoiled by it, as so many have.

Studyman said:

This verse simply says the Fire is eternal, as it should given this Fire is created and reserved for immortal angels that deceived the men of this world. But humans are not immortal unless they receive immortality from God.

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Nothing in the verse I posted talks about angels but about the wicked. The fires are eternal because the punishment is eternal.

Studyman said:

Can you please show me even one Scripture, where the unrighteous, whose names are not written in the Book of Life, receive immortality from God?

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Let’s go a little more in Matt. 25.

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭46‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

This verse contrasts both conditions and both conditions are eternal.

Studyman said:

And if you can't find any such scripture, then perhaps you might consider that it is a philosophy and tradition of man, and not God. And then perhaps "beware" that you are not spoiled by it, as so many have.

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Found the scripture so apply your exhortation for yourself. I believe in orthodox theology because I can prove it from scripture.

Hentenza said:

Nothing in the verse I posted talks about angels but about the wicked. The fires are eternal because the punishment is eternal.

Let’s go a little more in Matt. 25.

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭46‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

bible.com

This verse contrasts both conditions and both conditions are eternal.

Found the scripture so apply your exhortation for yourself. I believe in orthodox theology because I can prove it from scripture.

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Eternal punishment would be a destruction, a death from which there is no return. An everlasting destruction. The verse you posted makes my point. The righteous receive immortality, eternal life. The unrighteous do not receive immortality, they are destroyed as Jesus Himself and Paul told us, with "everlasting destruction".

This is the punishment from a God, His Father, that Jesus said to fear, A God who can destroy both body and soul.

Now you are free to post a verse here or there, and inject into it, the popular religious philosophy that all men are already immortal, that "You shall surely not die". And you are not the first to adopt such a philosophy. We both have been spoon fed this whole "Afterlife" foolishness from movies, religions, there are even ancient man-made "Christian" high days that promote this ancient pagan belief, "Halloween", "Day of the Dead". So the influence that surrounds us both, in the world God placed us in, is no different than the world of Noah's Time, or Caleb's Time, or Jesus' Time.

I asked you to find even ONE verse in the entire Bible, in which it is said that the unrighteous receive Immortality. Jesus doesn't teach any such thing. What you are trying to convince anyone who will listen to you, is that God is so vengeful, so without Mercy, that HE would take a man who
He Himself Said, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye., and raise this man from the dead, Judge him in front of the righteous, then force immortality on this man, so HE can torture him for eternity, along with the immortal angels that deceived him.

You are free to promote and worship such a god, but such a god doesn't exist the Bible. I will never make such a wicked judgment against Him, and certainly Jesus didn't, Paul didn't, and Moses and the Prophets didn't.

Studyman said:

Eternal punishment would be a destruction, a death from which there is no return. An everlasting destruction. The verse you posted makes my point. The righteous receive immortality, eternal life. The unrighteous do not receive immortality, they are destroyed as Jesus Himself and Paul told us, with "everlasting destruction".

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What part of everlasting punishment did you not get? How is that not immortality in ETERNAL punishment? How is everlasting punishment a destruction?

Studyman said:

The verse you posted makes my point. The righteous receive immortality, eternal life. The unrighteous do not receive immortality, they are destroyed as Jesus Himself and Paul told us, with "everlasting destruction".

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Yep. And to make that appear to support the concep of ECT, it's necessary to play some linguistic games. "Dead" and "death" have to be "spiritualized "so that they don't have their normal usages at all.

Studyman said:

This is the punishment from a God, His Father, that Jesus said to fear, A God who can destroy both body and soul.

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This one's well-nigh impossible to "spititualize", so the response is, "yeah, God can destroy body and soul, but He won't",

Studyman said:

I asked you to find even ONE verse in the entire Bible, in which it is said that the unrighteous receive Immortality.

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Genesis 3:4 is about as close as it gets. 8)

Hentenza said:

What part of everlasting punishment did you not get? What about "How is that not immortality in ETERNAL punishment? How is everlasting punishment a destruction?

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What about "the dead are dead forever" do you not get? The unbelieving dead are destroyed. That's about as permanent as you can get. Gone for all eternity.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Let's just make it clear here: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT PEOPLE LIVE FOREVER WITHOUT RECEIVING ETERNAL LIFE AS A GIFT FROM GOD. AS A GIFT FROM GOD

And yes, I'm sure I've just committed the ALL CAPS FALLACY! <LOL>)

Jipsah said:

What about "the dead are dead forever" do you not get? The unbelieving dead are destroyed. That's about as permanent as you can get. Gone for all eternity.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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That’s not what the Bible teaches. I already explained what death means.

“But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Jipsah said:

Let's just make it clear here: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT PEOPLE LIVE FOREVER WITHOUT RECEIVING ETERNAL LIFE AS A GIFT FROM GOD. AS A GIFT FROM GOD

And yes, I'm sure I've just committed the ALL CAPS FALLACY! <LOL>)

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Religious traditions of men have been a powerful deceiving force in this world God placed us in for a very long time. These traditions have corrupted some great men like King Solomon. We are instructed to beware and take heed of these traditions and philosophies.

I am encouraged that you too, have discerned this popular tradition and found that it is wrought in man and not God.

Good for you.

Jipsah said:

Let's just make it clear here: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT PEOPLE LIVE FOREVER WITHOUT RECEIVING ETERNAL LIFE AS A GIFT FROM GOD. AS A GIFT FROM GOD

And yes, I'm sure I've just committed the ALL CAPS FALLACY! <LOL>)

Click to expand...

Let’s just make it perfectly clear here: THERE IS SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT PEOPLE LIVE FOREVER WITHOUT RECEIVING ETERNAL LIFE.

Yes, you did commit the all caps fallacy but I’ll follow you.

Studyman said:

Religious traditions of men have been a powerful deceiving force in this world God placed us in for a very long time. These traditions have corrupted some great men like King Solomon. We are instructed to beware and take heed of these traditions and philosophies.

I am encouraged that you too, have discerned this popular tradition and found that it is wrought in man and not God.

Good for you.

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I would look at the fact that scriptures do not support your belief and that alone should give you pause.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Do you have a picture of Jesus to verify this claim?

and why are you groveling over this supposed genetic superiority anyway?

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jonojim1337 said:

View attachment 371792

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Are you going to claim Jesus was Egyptian now?

Jipsah said:

Yep. And to make that appear to support the concep of ECT, it's necessary to play some linguistic games. "Dead" and "death" have to be "spiritualized "so that they don't have their normal usages at all.

Click to expand...

And the irony of it all is, I don't see what is so "spiritual" about the Dante's Inferno version of hell anyway. .... "spiritual" certainly isn't what I would call the teaching.

Studyman said:

I am encouraged that you too, have discerned this popular tradition and found that it is wrought in man and not God.

Good for you.

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Wrought from the carnal side of man that feels desire for endless suffering and vengeance, I would say.

But the teaching persists because all they have to do is claim it is God's sense of justice against sin - not their own - and the greater part of the masses will not dare question authority any further, even with so much Scripture speaking of the unbelievers' fate in ways that don't sound anything at all like eternal conscious torment.

Some scriptures say words about eternal fire and torment, other scriptures say the Wicked will simply vanish, you will look for them and they will be nowhere to be found.

The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, is no longer burning, so that means the words "Everlasting Fire" is not to be taken literally, so why are we taking the words "eternal torment" literally? Especially when the other scriptures clearly say: "they will vanish"
"be cut off" "be burned up" "will not receive their inheritance" "will not get life" "will be destroyed"