Hell as literal fire and brimstone/torture

[Der Alte]

Sheol and Gehenna are two different things. Gehenna was a literal place in Jerusalem where the pagans sacrificed their children, and it also served as a garbage heap. There was constant fire and constant burning. It was the same image Jesus used for hell in the gospel of Matthew.
Sheol was a hole in the ground. The shadowy place of the dead. It had nothing to do with punishment. It was where all the righteous and unrighteous went before the time of Christ.

NOTICE: This post is often blown off as a gigantic wall of text.
Wrong! I have been active at this forum for more than 30 years. I have seen virtually every conceivable argument which could be made attempting to counter my posts. I soon realized, ca. '89-'90, that the same arguments, same out-of-context proof texts etc. are endlessly repeated. So I began saving my responses and revising them as I learned more credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, etc. evidence. Below is documented irrefutable evidence supporting my views.
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing Inferno but according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that when Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was supposedly referring to nonexistent continually burning fires in the valley of GeHinnom where trash and bodies were supposedly disposed of.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA] ​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

See next post for credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence that there was NEVER a constantly burning dump in the valley of Gehenna. There was such a trash dump in the next valley over i.e. the Kidron valley. I suggest you find an honest denomination.

 

[Der Alte]

People who are genuinely looking for the truth will find it. Unfortunately, those looking only to support their current assumptions/presupposition will also find that.

"The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm"​

Note: There is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no, zero, none such evidence.
= = = == = =

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage​

 

[Der Alte]

Because the afterlife is not subject to "time"
everything referred to there is timeless or eternal.
Heaven, Hell, everything.

Any credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical, etc. evidence?

 

[RickReads]

Wrong! I have been active at this forum for more than 30 years. I have seen virtually every conceivable argument which could be made attempting to counter my posts. I soon realized, ca. '89-'90, that the same arguments, same out-of-context proof texts etc. are endlessly repeated. So I began saving my responses and revising them as I learned more credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, etc. evidence. Below is documented irrefutable evidence supporting my views.
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing Inferno but according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]

The Talmud isnt credible and the Jewish Encyclopedia is strongly influenced by Talmud as well, so again not very credible.​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that when Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was supposedly referring to nonexistent continually burning fires in the valley of GeHinnom where trash and bodies were supposedly disposed of.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA] ​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

See next post for credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence that there was NEVER a constantly burning dump in the valley of Gehenna. There was such a dump in the next valley over i.e. the Kidron valley. I suggest you find an honest denomination.

The Talmud isn't credible and The Jewish encyclopedia gets a lot of its info from Talmud. Again, not credible.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, yes.... I'm familiar with those verses too, but kings and priests to who?

Animals and Angels.
When Adam and Eve were created they were given dominion over Earth, when they sinned, dominion was given to Satan and his angels.
When Jesus comes back dominion comes back to men, because our federal head, is Jesus, so because a man, Jesus, is given dominion, we share in it.

 

[Der Alte]

The Talmud isn't credible and The Jewish encyclopedia gets a lot of its info from Talmud. Again, not credible.

Unsupported opinion is not credible thus not relevant. Unless you can provide equally ancient credible historical resources on the faith and practices of the Jews before and during the time of Jesus. By credible, an analogy, if I wanted accurate information about Israel and Jews I would not ask Palestinians. AFAIK these I quoted are the only credible historical sources which could possibly inform us on the historical Jewish faith and practices. Nothing more credible than what Jews wrote about their ancestors.

 

[Jamdoc]

To be fair, I'd only really have a problem with hell being eternal torture, if heaven is nothing but eternal singing.
Cause then it just seems like a choice of do something I don't like doing forever, or get eternally tortured forever. Man, what an awful existence.
It's like being forced to do something you really don't want to do at gunpoint, but infinitely worse.
and yes, it would be forced. Because choosing the absolute worst possible eternal torture outcome to avoid doing an almost as bad, but at least not actually painful eternity is not really a choice, you'll go with the lesser of 2 evils.

Before people say "you should want to sing and praise God forever for salvation" it's like saying "You should love the person robbing you at gunpoint and want to praise them because at least they're not pulling the trigger on you as long as you give them all your money"

Because there's another way I'd have no sin attributed to me, and if it came down to a choice of singing at proverbial gunpoint, and not existing at all, I'd choose not existing. No existence, no sin.

So I have to believe that the flip side of eternal torment in hell, is not eternal singing, but something better. I kinda have to, or I just feel like not existing.

 

[Der Alte]

Sheol and Gehenna are two different things. Gehenna was a literal place in Jerusalem where the pagans sacrificed their children, and it also served as a garbage heap. There was constant fire and constant burning. It was the same image Jesus used for hell in the gospel of Matthew.
Sheol was a hole in the ground. The shadowy place of the dead. It had nothing to do with punishment. It was where all the righteous and unrighteous went before the time of Christ.

Thank you for this unsupported opinion. Please see my posts #41 and #42, above, for documented evidence about the actual Jewish belief in "Hell," before and during the time of Jesus, which OBTW they called both "sheol" and "Gehinnom" written as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX/Septuagint. The LXX is the Greek translation of the OT by Jewish scholars. "sheol" and "Gehinnom" also written as "Gehenna" and "hades" in the NT and also the archaeological evidence that there was never an always burning trash dump in Gehenna. There was such a dump in the next valley over, the Kidron valley.

 

[RickReads]

Unsupported opinion is not credible thus not relevant. Unless you can provide equally ancient credible historical resources on the faith and practices of the Jews before and during the time of Jesus. By credible, an analogy, if I wanted accurate information about Israel and Jews I would not ask Palestinians. AFAIK these I quoted are the only credible historical sources which could possibly inform us on the historical Jewish faith and practices. Nothing more credible than what Jews wrote about their ancestors.

We've had this debate before and I'm not going to repeat my research. The Talmud is not a reliable document, the Jewish encyclopedia relies too much on Talmud and is also unreliable.

 

[Der Alte]

We've had this debate before and I'm not going to repeat my research. The Talmud is not a reliable document, the Jewish encyclopedia relies too much on Talmud and is also unreliable.

I am not too interested in the unsupported opinions of random people online. Both are accepted by the Jews as authoritative. I might be interested if you could provide similar credible, verifiable historical evidence from another source. I don't know of any.

 

[RickReads]

I am not too interested in the unsupported opinions of random people online. Both are accepted by the Jews as authoritative. I might be interested if you could provide similar credible, verifiable historical evidence from another source. I don't know of any.

Been there, done that. As I said before, not repeating the research.

The bias and the inaccuracy of the Talmud is known well enough.

 

[SkyWriting]

Any credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical, etc. evidence?

It has more relevance if you look into it on you own..but ok:


(Isaiah 57:15)
For thus says the high and lofty one who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy .

2 Peter 3:8
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Revelation 4:11 s
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

(So....frozen solid?)

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began

Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

(God is either frozen in time, or not subject to time)

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (End to end, first to last, A to Z)

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

Revelation 21:6
And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.

 

[Der Alte]

Been there, done that. As I said before, not repeating the research.
The bias and the inaccuracy of the Talmud is known well enough.

Talk about bias I see alot of anti-Semitism here with zero evidence. I'm sure there is bias against non-Jews e.g. in one of their writings Toledat-Jesu, Jesus was called illegitimate and his mother a prostitute but what they have written about their own, culture, beliefs, practices etc. the Talmud and the encyclopedias are the ONLY credible evidence for that. You might try doing what I have done for about 30 years. I save my posts so when the same out-of-context proof texts are repeated I don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Der Alte]

[QUOTE="SkyWriting, post: 76668419, member: 255843"]It has more relevance if you look into it on you own..but ok:
(Isaiah 57:15)
For thus says the high and lofty one who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy .

2 Peter 3:8
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Revelation 4:11 s
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

(So....frozen solid?)

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began

Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

(God is either frozen in time, or not subject to time)

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (End to end, first to last, A to Z)

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

Revelation 21:6
And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.[/QUOTE]
How do any of these vss support your claim that Because the afterlife is not subject to "time" everything referred to there is timeless or eternal. Heaven, Hell, everything.

 

[SkyWriting]

[QUOTE="SkyWriting, post: 76668419, member: 255843"]It has more relevance if you look into it on you own..but ok:
(Isaiah 57:15)
For thus says the high and lofty one who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy .

2 Peter 3:8
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Revelation 4:11 s
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

(So....frozen solid?)

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began

Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

(God is either frozen in time, or not subject to time)

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (End to end, first to last, A to Z)

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

Revelation 21:6
And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.

How do any of these vss support your claim that Because the afterlife is not subject to "time" everything referred to there is timeless or eternal. Heaven, Hell, everything.[/QUOTE]

If you can't feel it as true, then my exposition for you will not be a benefit.

 

[RickReads]

Talk about bias I see alot of anti-Semitism here with zero evidence. I'm sure there is bias against non-Jews e.g. in one of their writings Toledat-Jesu, Jesus was called illegitimate and his mother a prostitute but what they have written about their own, culture, beliefs, practices etc. the Talmud and the encyclopedias are the ONLY credible evidence for that. You might try doing what I have done for about 30 years. I save my posts so when the same out-of-context proof texts are repeated I don't have to reinvent the wheel.

I used to save everything I wrote about but I have health issues and chronic pain, which interferes with my concentration and prevents me from staying organized. I`ve been better in recent weeks and that has enabled me to become active on this board again. I have to pick and choose which issues I'm going to address in detail.

Jesus had little regard for the oral tradition upon which the Talmud is based and that is the root of my own lack of respect for it. I already gave you a good debate on all this and it didn't change your mind.

 

[SkyWriting]

I used to save everything I wrote about but I have health issues and chronic pain, which interferes with my concentration and prevents me from staying organized. I`ve been better in recent weeks and that has enabled me to become active on this board again. I have to pick and choose which issues I'm going to address in detail.

Jesus had little regard for the oral tradition upon which the Talmud is based and that is the root of my own lack of respect for it. I already gave you a good debate on all this and it didn't change your mind.

People only change their mind if they FEEL that you agree with them.
Feelings are what change. Then the analytical mind changes the facts to follow it.

 

[SkyWriting]

Talk about bias I see alot of anti-Semitism here with zero evidence. I'm sure there is bias against non-Jews e.g. in one of their writings Toledat-Jesu, Jesus was called illegitimate and his mother a prostitute but what they have written about their own, culture, beliefs, practices etc. the Talmud and the encyclopedias are the ONLY credible evidence for that. You might try doing what I have done for about 30 years. I save my posts so when the same out-of-context proof texts are repeated I don't have to reinvent the wheel.

I nearly always re-work my research on a topic and build it fresh. The process either reveals flaws or opens up new support.

 

[SkyWriting]

People who are genuinely looking for the truth will find it. Unfortunately, those looking only to support their current assumptions/presupposition will also find that.

People make decisions based on instant feelings. Then use their second network of analytics to back that decision. They mold the facts around their feelings.

 

[SkyWriting]

NOTICE: This post is often blown off as a gigantic wall of text.

Correct. Make a point in three or more sentences.
You have about 3 seconds to get a persons attention on a topic.