Hell and the purpose of pain

[Breckmin]

If God is truly omnipresent...then how could he separate himself from sin or not allow it in his presence?

The historical orthodox view (the correct view) is that a Holy God will
not fellowship spiritually with unrighteousness. It is an issue of fellowship
and communion... it is not an issue of three dimensional omnipresence.

The eternal separation is actually from the new heaven and the new
earth... as well as God's affectionate fellowship...it is NOT a complete
separation from an omnipresent Creator.

If hell exist, then God would be there.

Absolutely. The one thing that the sinner has to fear in hell is God.
It is God's Perfect Wrath against a guilty sinner that is righteous and
holy. The sinner is unholy and is both separated from the new heaven
and new earth as well as eternally punished. The punishment and
the separation are both distinct and it makes the reasons for eternal
hell multifaceted. This is what the annihilationalist does not understand.

Christ died to pay for our sins.

Jesus both suffered AND died to pay for our sins...but Jesus did not
annihilate...but He WAS separated from fellowship with the Father
during the time that He bore our sins.

If our sin caused us to be eternally tormented,

The reason that hell is eternal is multifaceted and the distinctions
can not be wrongfully isolated because they are all connected premises.
Whether it is the eternal nature of sin, the eternal being of God's Image,
(btw, saying hell is eternal because sin is against an infinite God is a
very poor argument), the eternal record of the temporary creation,
the fact that Perfection (Righteousness) will not fellowship with
imperfection (unrighteousness or the state of being eternally tainted),
the inability of the sinner who is imperfect to ever pay for sin (can
only eternally approach payment) OR the different levels of unequal
suffering and their limits (according to their works).....none of these
can be wrongfully isolated on (away from the others).

...then the only way Christ could pay for our sins would be to suffer eternal torment.

This is a perfect example of how annihilationalism causes people to
compare an unholy imperfect sinner who can never fully pay for their
sin to a Perfect and Holy Creator Who became a Man.

Why do Christians do this?

Jesus was completely innocent. Not one hair on His Head should have
been harmed....ever in His lifetime. The sinner is GUILTY.

Your annihilation nonsense has you comparing Holy Jesus to an unrighteous
guilty sinner and claiming they both need to pay for sin the same
way.

This is what heterodoxy causes people to do.... completely miss logic.

 

[ebia]

Or else it is just a metaphor for ultimate and permanent annihilation.

Hell is a metaphor. Or at least every description of it is metaphorical. By necessity.

 

[dhh712]

Your annihilation nonsense has you comparing Holy Jesus to an unrighteous
guilty sinner and claiming they both need to pay for sin the same
way.

This is what heterodoxy causes people to do.... completely miss logic.

My mother believes (loosely) in annihilationism. I speculate that the origin of that nonsense stems from mankind's corrupted sense of justice. I also feel that they (those who adhere to such an imagination of their own hearts) have a minimal understanding of the holiness of God, some thinking of Him perhaps as merely a "better" human.

Personally I will admit that my conscience feels at rest when I think of the annihilation of the unbeliever; what typically comes to mind when I think of eternal torment disgusts me, yet I am fully aware that this instinctive reaction stems from my corrupted nature and inability to detach myself from humanity.

 

[Emmyc]

I believe the bible teaches annihilations, but obviously others believe it teaches eternal conscious torment.

But people here seem to WANT there to be a hell, they seem emotionally invested in the idea… and that I don’t understand.

In every way, annihilating evil is preferable to brushing it under the rug somewhere, If anything it is a more complete way of getting rid of it. When we come against evil on Earth (like child starvation, or rape) we are called to obliterate it! We are not called to have it all shunted off to an island somewhere. In our hearts we are to get rid of evil, not wall it off in a small corner of our hearts and keep it around on purpose refusing to let it die…

When the bible could go either way why would anyone choose to believe in eternal conscious torment?

And no one has yet been able to answer “What would be the purpose of pain in hell”?

 

[dhh712]

I believe the bible teaches annihilations, but obviously others believe it teaches eternal conscious torment.

When I last read the Bible through I remember one verse where I noted something like, does this indicate annihilation? It was somewhere in Revelations from what I can remember. I remember countless others that indicate a torment of some sort--yet is torment not subjective? I can understand where scholars can derive an objective sense of the doctrine of torment in the Bible, yet the word itself, the meaning seems to necessarily consist of a subjective idea. What is one man's pleasure is another man's derision.

Not much more than a year ago I personally would have been bored out of my mind with the idea of studying the Bible, attending church, associating with Biblically-minded people, etc. What changed? The only thing possibly that could have was my subjective understanding of such things. Understanding all this is merely reasoning out of such things however, I am becoming more and more convinced that though there is certainly objective evidence of some sort of torment in the Bible (likely eternal), the torment itself is subjective.

It is a recent thought I had that might not the eternal torment discussed in the Bible be from God's perspective? To be prevented from communion with God would seem to be something immeasurably tormenting from the Lord's perspective. Unbelievers seem to hate the very idea of God. Yet then there is justice to be considered.

Personally I feel it is something we must come to have trust in the Lord about. I don't think any of us will ever be able to declare exactly what it means to be tormented according to the Bible (or the state of unbelievers after death); it seems that it is not something which is clearly in specific terms revealed (except that it is a very bad thing). We must just overcome our pride and love God despite His not revealing to us every minute detail of His plan and purpose.

But people here seem to WANT there to be a hell, they seem emotionally invested in the idea… and that I don’t understand.

I can not understand it except perhaps it is that these people have come to a profound understanding that this is what is declared specifically by God in the Bible; and, they have developed a profound love for God and His word that transcends any sort of attachment to worldly things seemingly to the point that they absolutely hate any visage of humanity that does not love God.

Personally, I haven't gotten to that point. I understand my faith is a weak one and I look to the years that I have lived as an unbeliever having contempt for God and believing that His word was profoundly flawed and written by corrupt men. The only difference between those people that hate God and me right now is that God opened my heart to love Him and has given me an experience of His holiness. Yet I am still unbelievably corrupt and can't rid myself of loving the filth of this world.

 

[Emmyc]

When I last read the Bible through I remember one verse where I noted something like, does this indicate annihilation? It was somewhere in Revelations from what I can remember. I remember countless others that indicate a torment of some sort--

When I read the bible it’s the other way around. Usually they talk about death and destruction (“the wages of sin is death, God gave his only beloved son so all that believe in him may not perish, don’t fear men who can kill the body but not touch the soul, instead fear God who can destroy both body and soul… etc), and only a few (two of them parables and one in revelations) that talk about eternal torment.

But this is exactly my point. We both read the same bible yet I see many mentions of death and destruction and one or two of eternal torment and you see many references to torment and only one or two of annihilation.

What is one man's pleasure is another man's derision.

This is so true. I used to enjoy this show called Taboo and there are people who want to have a body part amputated, people who enjoy being covered in bees, people who get aroused by having hiccups, people who’s favorite food is spider, people who fall in love with and marry buildings, we all know about people who get off on being in pain…. I am sure there is not a thing out there that SOMEONE doesn’t like.

Not much more than a year ago I personally would have been bored out of my mind with the idea of studying the Bible, attending church, associating with Biblically-minded people, etc. What changed? The only thing possibly that could have was my subjective understanding of such things.

I too became a Christian a little over a year ago. Though I have been interested and searching my whole life. I have read the bible, attended various churches off and on, listened to online lectures or debates for years… What changed was that finally God reveled himself to me when I was ready. I would pray off and on things like this “If you are real please give me a sign” but I never got one, until (I think) my mind and maturity and understanding of God was ready to accept God. I think if he had given me a sign earlier I would have blown it off as either a “coincidence” or a “feeling”. God knew that so he didn’t bother. Anyway I digress…

It is a recent thought I had that might not the eternal torment discussed in the Bible be from God's perspective? To be prevented from communion with God would seem to be something immeasurably tormenting from the Lord's perspective. Unbelievers seem to hate the very idea of God. Yet then there is justice to be considered.

This is an interesting concept I have heard before…

Personally I feel it is something we must come to have trust in the Lord about. I don't think any of us will ever be able to declare exactly what it means to be tormented according to the Bible (or the state of unbelievers after death)

Yes, this is a Romans 14 issue (agree to disagree and don’t let this start a fight or division). But it is still interesting to discuss or we wouldn’t be here.

I can not understand it except perhaps it is that these people have come to a profound understanding that this is what is declared specifically by God in the Bible; and, they have developed a profound love for God and His word that transcends any sort of attachment to worldly things seemingly to the point that they absolutely hate any visage of humanity that does not love God.

Maaaaaybe…. But I can’t see how. I mean, let’s leave off the idea of basically good (by human standards) people who happen not to be Christian (we all know people like that), but instead assume the best case scenario, that only the truly evil to their very core (like maybe Hitler, people who rape children, people like that) go to Hell….

I still can’t see how keeping them alive to torture them is better then just getting rid of them. I can’t see how I could close my heart off to them and not feel bad for them. Heaven would be a place where good hearted people weep for those in hell.

Normal healthy people aren’t evil. Maybe I would be that way too if I had their brain chemistry and upbringing. Surely they are evil because they are broken and damaged.

Maybe if someone raped and murdered MY daughter I would want them to burn forever in Hell… but I hope not. I hope I could forgive them to the point where if they repented and ended up in heaven I could love them, I could even hope for that. And if I did manage that level of forgiveness then I would see them as human and their ongoing torture would be sad, bitter, tragic…

And isn’t God infinitely more good and loving then me? He would have to ache for them even more then ordinary good hearted people would….

If Hell exists it’s something terrible that even God, though love it’s self, can’t fix….