Hell and the purpose of pain

[Emmyc]

I have always felt that eternal conscious torment was cruel… evil in fact. And for most of my life form early childhood until almost 30 that was the main reason I couldn’t be a Christian.

(My current understanding, if anyone’s curious, is that those who for all eternity never choose to follow God’s plan of love just eventually stop existing. I now read the bible and see all the mentions of “Burning” as in being consumed, burned up, utterly destroyed….) But anyway:

Pain is a gift from God in order for us to learn. Some people are born without the ability to feel pain and it is a DISASTER! They break bones and burn their skin and get infections and never realize it. They don’t learn to be careful (even though they know logically it doesn’t *stick*, pain is connected to memory formation) they reach into a pot of boiling water and don’t realize they’ve done anything wrong until they see the blisters on their hands. They die young. We were wired to feel pain as part of God’s good and perfect design, to teach us things, and to warn us when something isn’t right.

When we punish our children, again it is to teach them. When I hear my 3 year old daughter crying from her time out chair it breaks my heart and every part of me wants to rescue her from her suffering but I know if I do she will think crying is how she gets her way, so I grit my teeth and hurt with her and know this is ultimately for her own good. We would never, ever punish a child we loved if not for them to learn, that is the POINT of punishment.

So for hell to be a painful and terrible place with no escape and no lesson to learn would make it purposeless cruelty. Hell has to be to TEACH those in hell a lesson. Their (God given gift of) pain is so they can learn from it for their own good, which means there has to be a way out…. Or else it is just a metaphor for ultimate and permanent annihilation.

 

[dhh712]

Pain is a gift from God in order for us to learn. Some people are born without the ability to feel pain and it is a DISASTER! We were wired to feel pain as part of God’s good and perfect design, to teach us things, and to warn us when something isn’t right.

I whole-heartedly agree with you that pain is a gift from God; specifically I feel it is to draw us from this world so that we are not so caught up in it. When I don't have it, I feel that God is allowing me to become fulfilled by the world. When I have it, I feel that I draw close to God; I feel the weakness and debilitation of my own body and know that I depend on Him.

Where I work I see first-hand the droves of people who want to free themselves from any semblance of pain. I recognize that they do not know the God that I do. I get so sad to see them want and want and desire to love this life, this world--oh, I don't believe I am in such pain as they, but curse my foolishness that in part I envy God's effort to take them from this cursed place--but alas the pleas fall on deaf ears: they are caught up in a place which can never satisfy, which will always leave them wanting.

 

[Percivale]

I see the issue similarly, Emmy. I think people don't distinguish between Hades (immediately after death), and the Lake of Fire (after the judgment). I believe that in Hades people still have a chance to repent and be saved, and perhaps God uses pain there to bring them to repentance. I Peter has a couple verses that suggest that: Jesus preached to spirits in prison (3:19) ...that they might live to God in the spirit (4:6).
After the judgment, I believe those who still haven't repented are consumed and cease to exist consciously, though there seems to be some remnant of their being remaining.
Anyway, it is certain that God will do what is most loving for all, and not destroy anyone who can be saved.

 

[Emmyc]

I think one way the bible is confusing is that 3 words are usually all translated "Hell" as though they were the same concept (which in the original language they aren't).
"Sheol" which is the Jewish idea of "Where you go when you die"
"Hades" which is the (Greek?) idea of "where you go when you die."
and "Gehena" which is the local garbage dump.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"it is appointed unto men to die once, and after this the judgment." this and the rest of Scripture in accordance/peace with God's Spirit in grace in Jesus shows clearly that there is absolutely no second chance to repent after going to hades.
the time is now, today, as it is written in Scripture, to turn to God, to listen to God, to repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Turn to Him while He may be found! after death, in the grave, nothing can be done.

as to the op, yes, pain is part of life, a necessary part - even the Savior Jesus "learned obedience through the things that He suffered" (this does not mean at all that He ever sinned, no - not even once) don't read into it what's not there.
also,
i think in Hebrews, but may be elsewhere - for those who are His, He uses pain/suffering to "wean us away from our own way of thinking/living to HIS WAY".... good and righteous and just always.

 

[Percivale]

"it is appointed unto men to die once, and after this the judgment." this and the rest of Scripture in accordance/peace with God's Spirit in grace in Jesus shows clearly that there is absolutely no second chance to repent after going to hades.
the time is now, today.

Where is the 'rest of scripture' that supports the traditional position? I've studied the Bible a long time, and not seen any definite scripture that says there's not chances after death. I think it's more a tradition of reacting against anything that might seem Catholic, not scripture, that supports that understanding. I don't deny that man dies once, and after that the judgment, just say something can happen between the two, which the verse does not deny. No matter where you are, now is the time for salvation--it's never something to put off, because it's not fire insurance, its abundant life.

 

[Mediaeval]

You are not alone in favoring the idea that pain/suffering/hell serves a remedial purpose. Christian writers such as Thomas Erskine of Linlathen (1788-1870) and George MacDonald (1824-1905) agreed.

 

[Emmyc]

"it is appointed unto men to die once, and after this the judgment." this and the rest of Scripture in accordance/peace with God's Spirit in grace in Jesus shows clearly that there is absolutely no second chance to repent after going to hades.

But then what would be the POINT of pain and suffering in Hell?

Pain is a gift from God in order to TEACH us, and to let us know when something isn't right so we can CHANGE it.

Or to let us know something needs tender or special treatment (Say a broken leg) for our PROTECTION.

Even emotional pain is to let you know when things are not right, so you can get out of a bad situation, or change the way you act (depending on what is causing the pain).

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

God is love, but God is also Holy. Something Holy cannot allow sin within its Presence. I always assumed hell was a total separation from God. To me, that is a far worst punishment than any sort of forever kind of hell we think in the vein that Dante describes in his comedy.

It is not cruel of God to separate himself from you eternally. That wasn't His choice to begin with, but yours.

 

[dhh712]

God is love, but God is also Holy. Something Holy cannot allow sin within its Presence. I always assumed hell was a total separation from God. To me, that is a far worst punishment than any sort of forever kind of hell we think in the vein that Dante describes in his comedy.

It is not cruel of God to separate himself from you eternally. That wasn't His choice to begin with, but yours.

I don't think many people realize that God is reining in the hearts of those even who do not believe in Him. I get the impression that lots of atheists think, "Oh, I couldn't care less if I got separated from God--to me that wouldn't mean anything." What they do not realize is that everything that is good comes from God. Their ability to anything good to themselves and others is from God. I shudder at the horror of a place where God is completely absent.

I wish I could convey this to others without them saying, "Well, that's what you believe". I know that what I need to do is become more biblically literate so that I return with ammunition from the word of God; it is the ultimate weapon and can counter any atheistic attack, but unfortunately I don't know how to use it. Well of course, all of it is pointless without God's direction--all of my efforts on my own would not accomplish a thing.

 

[Simonline]

I have always felt that eternal conscious torment was cruel… evil in fact. And for most of my life form early childhood until almost 30 that was the main reason I couldn’t be a Christian.

(My current understanding, if anyone’s curious, is that those who for all eternity never choose to follow God’s plan of love just eventually stop existing. I now read the bible and see all the mentions of “Burning” as in being consumed, burned up, utterly destroyed….) But anyway:

Pain is a gift from God in order for us to learn. Some people are born without the ability to feel pain and it is a DISASTER! They break bones and burn their skin and get infections and never realize it. They don’t learn to be careful (even though they know logically it doesn’t *stick*, pain is connected to memory formation) they reach into a pot of boiling water and don’t realize they’ve done anything wrong until they see the blisters on their hands. They die young. We were wired to feel pain as part of God’s good and perfect design, to teach us things, and to warn us when something isn’t right.

When we punish our children, again it is to teach them. When I hear my 3 year old daughter crying from her time out chair it breaks my heart and every part of me wants to rescue her from her suffering but I know if I do she will think crying is how she gets her way, so I grit my teeth and hurt with her and know this is ultimately for her own good. We would never, ever punish a child we loved if not for them to learn, that is the POINT of punishment.

So for hell to be a painful and terrible place with no escape and no lesson to learn would make it purposeless cruelty. Hell has to be to TEACH those in hell a lesson. Their (God given gift of) pain is so they can learn from it for their own good, which means there has to be a way out…. Or else it is just a metaphor for ultimate and permanent annihilation.

Sorry, but we are required to take our lead from Divine Revelation which by its very Nature is absolute rather than your or anyone else's finite and therefore fallible/relative perception of reality.

Everlasting, conscious punishment (Isa.66:23-24; Mk.9:42-48; Rev.20:10) is what is prescribed by God for those who choose to remain in a state of moral rebellion against Him as the Divine Creator and Absolute Ruler of all that He has both created (Gen.1-2) and continues to sustain (Col.1:16-17). Whilst discipline is intended to be remedial not all punishment is for the purpose of discipline. Some punishment is intended to teach nothing more and nothing less than that life is absolutely NOT amoral. Since God has both created and sustains all Life then that life (especially for sentient creatures that have been created in the likeness of the Divine Creator (Gen.1:26-27)) does have ultimate meaning and that all actions are both moral and will have ultimate consequences. God's ultimate lesson will be that one cannot go through life arbitrarily choosing to believe that all reality has no inherent meaning except that with which we choose to endow it (i.e. the Secular Humanistic lie that 'man is the measure of all things') and then expect to escape from any moral consequences of living accordingly. The Reality of the King will ALWAYS destroy the Kings' rebellious subjects before the Kings' rebellious subjects will EVER destroy the Reality of the King. The ultimate lesson which the Kings' rebellious subjects will FOREVER learn is that HE and not they are KING.

The idea that God will just cause those who choose to remain in rebellion against Him to cease to exist [a.k.a Annihilationism] is another demonic lie. God has created all angels and humans as everlasting. The issue is in what state will those angels/humans spend forever? In a state of blesséd fellowship with Him or in a state of everlasting rebellion against Him. If Life is to have any ultimate meaning at all then there can be no third alternative, no Annihilationism for those who want to live for themselves (i.e. in rebellion against the Creator) without any ultimate moral consequences to their actions whatsoever.

The Creator, in order to be both true to and consistent with both His Essential Nature and Character is NEVER going to allow that to happen. The Creator is absolutely incapable of 'turning a blind eye' to sin. That is precisely why the Creator Himself, incarnate as the Messiah, had to die as the atoning propitiation for our rebellion, for our sin (Isa.53:10; Jn.10:17-18; Acts.4:27-28; Acts.20:28(b)).

The Bible teaches that eventually everyone will be resurrected, some to everlasting/Eternal Life and some to everlasting condemnation (Jn.5:28-29). What many do not realize is that the unbelievers also will be given resurrection bodies with which to enter into everlasting condemnation, bodies that will be ideally suited to their final estate (Mk.9:48) since these bodies that we have now would last but fleeting moments in the everlasting lake of fire. It is not just the believers who will get resurrection bodies at their resurrection to everlasting/Eternal Life but also the unbelievers too.

Were Annihilationism possible then the Creator would not have had to die. He would simply annihilate those who chose to remain in a state of rebellion against Him and redeem only those sentient creatures (i.e. humans, fallen angels are beyond redemption) that choose of their own volition to spend forever in a state of blesséd fellowship with Him.

This is not mere human speculation but Divine Revelation. We have been warned. Don't allow the Emerging Church et al. to delude you otherwise.

Simonline.

 

[Emmyc]

Everlasting, conscious punishment (Isa.66:23-24; Mk.9:42-48; Rev.20:10) is what is prescribed by God for those who choose to remain in a state of moral rebellion against Him

Matthew 10:28—"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Psalms 9:5—"You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever."

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Gensis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

as the Divine Creator and Absolute Ruler of all that He has both created (Gen.1-2) and continues to sustain (Col.1:16-17). Whilst discipline is intended to be remedial not all punishment is for the purpose of discipline. Some punishment is intended to teach nothing more and nothing less than that life is absolutely NOT amoral. Since God has both created and sustains all Life then that life (especially for sentient creatures that have been created in the likeness of the Divine Creator (Gen.1:26-27)) does have ultimate meaning and that all actions are both moral and will have ultimate consequences. God's ultimate lesson will be that one cannot go through life arbitrarily choosing to believe that all reality has no inherent meaning except that with which we choose to endow it (i.e. the Secular Humanistic lie that 'man is the measure of all things') and then expect to escape from any moral consequences of living accordingly.

You’re right that God holds all things in existence. Why would God continue to hold creatures in existence for the sheer purpose of hurting them?
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
And God is love (1 John 4:8)

The same one (Jesus) who said “Love your enemies” also said “If you see me you see the father”. When Peter cut off the centurion’s ear Jesus healed it.

Jesus was about forgiveness not revenge.


Also, what is so wonderful about not existing? I was raised atheist and death always scared me. The concept of just ENDING… of being nothing and nowhere forever… of everything you ever thought and felt gone forever is awful!

Furthermore why would God even allow evil to even EXSIST at all? Destroying it entirely and permanently would be more fitting with reconciling all things to God (Colossians 1:20). In a new perfect creation there is no place for evil! Not even sanctioned off in one little dark corner of crweation.

The Reality of the King will ALWAYS destroy the Kings' rebellious subjects before the Kings' rebellious subjects will EVER destroy the Reality of the King. The ultimate lesson which the Kings' rebellious subjects will FOREVER learn is that HE and not they are KING.

Yes exactly: Destroy. Consume. End. Eliminate.

The idea that God will just cause those who choose to remain in rebellion against Him to cease to exist [a.k.a Annihilationism] is another demonic lie. God has created all angels and humans as everlasting.

Biblically where do you get this? Can you quote verse that says humans are all created immortal?
What I see in the bible is that immortality and eternal life are ALWAYS a gift from God and a reward.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Titus 3:7—"so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
1 Cor 15:53—"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."
1 Tim 6:15-16—"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality..."
Rom 2:6-7—"[God] will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..."

And everyone’s favorite:

John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

The issue is in what state will those angels/humans spend forever? In a state of blesséd fellowship with Him or in a state of everlasting rebellion against Him. If Life is to have any ultimate meaning at all then there can be no third alternative, no Annihilationism for those who want to live for themselves (i.e. in rebellion against the Creator) without any ultimate moral consequences to their actions whatsoever. The Creator, in order to be both true to and consistent with both His Essential Nature and Character is NEVER going to allow that to happen. The Creator is absolutely incapable of 'turning a blind eye' to sin. That is precisely why the Creator Himself, incarnate as the Messiah, had to die as the atoning propitiation for our rebellion, for our sin (Isa.53:10; Jn.10:17-18; Acts.4:27-28; Acts.20:28(b)).

What do you mean no consequences whatsoever? Of course they will have consequences!
Wages of sin death (Romans 6:23)
The body and soul of a sinner will be destroyed in hell (Matt 10:28)
Unless you repent you will parish (Luke 13 1-5)
Etc.

You do realize, I assume, that if you cease to exist you are by definition eternally separated from God? In fact ceasing to exist is the only way TO be eternally separated from God because God is continually holding all things and all people in existence, if God stopped holding you in existence you would cease to be.

Do you think eternal destruction annihilation is strong enough punishment for the likes of Gandhi? That God should, against his character of love and grace, continue to hold such people into existence purely for the purpose of torturing them?

The Bible teaches that eventually everyone will be resurrected, some to everlasting/Eternal Life and some to everlasting condemnation (Jn.5:28-29).

Yes, being destroyed for ever definitely qualifies. The death sentence is forever. You will be raised, judged, and if you are found to be less then perfect you can not enter God’s perfect world and are destroyed. Now none of us are perfect so enter Jesus (as you mentioned earlier)

What many do not realize is that the unbelievers also will be given resurrection bodies with which to enter into everlasting condemnation, bodies that will be ideally suited to their final estate (Mk.9:48) since these bodies that we have now would last but fleeting moments in the everlasting lake of fire. It is not just the believers who will get resurrection bodies at their resurrection to everlasting/Eternal Life but also the unbelievers too.
Simonline.

I see no where in the bible “The wicked will be raised with incorruptible immortal bodies” that gift is reserved purely repentant sinner.

Were Annihilationism possible then the Creator would not have had to die.

Why not?

He would simply annihilate those who chose to remain in a state of rebellion against Him and redeem only those sentient creatures (i.e. humans, fallen angels are beyond redemption) that choose of their own volition to spend forever in a state of blesséd fellowship with Him.
This is not mere human speculation but Divine Revelation. We have been warned. Don't allow the Emerging Church et al. to delude you otherwise.

Simonline.

Without Jesus he would have to annihilate EVERYONE. Destroy his entire creation which he loves for all eternity. We are so thankful that he didn’t choose to do that. Instead he became a man and taught us to love, and promised us the gift of eternal life if we promised to follow and obey him. THAT is divine revelation

 

[Breckmin]

Sorry, but we are required to take our lead from Divine Revelation which by its very Nature is absolute rather than your or anyone else's finite and therefore fallible/relative perception of reality.

Everlasting, conscious punishment (Isa.66:23-24; Mk.9:42-48; Rev.20:10) is what is prescribed by God for those who choose to remain in a state of moral rebellion against Him as the Divine Creator and Absolute Ruler of all that He has both created (Gen.1-2) and continues to sustain (Col.1:16-17). Whilst discipline is intended to be remedial not all punishment is for the purpose of discipline. Some punishment is intended to teach nothing more and nothing less than that life is absolutely NOT amoral. Since God has both created and sustains all Life then that life (especially for sentient creatures that have been created in the likeness of the Divine Creator (Gen.1:26-27)) does have ultimate meaning and that all actions are both moral and will have ultimate consequences. God's ultimate lesson will be that one cannot go through life arbitrarily choosing to believe that all reality has no inherent meaning except that with which we choose to endow it (i.e. the Secular Humanistic lie that 'man is the measure of all things') and then expect to escape from any moral consequences of living accordingly. The Reality of the King will ALWAYS destroy the Kings' rebellious subjects before the Kings' rebellious subjects will EVER destroy the Reality of the King. The ultimate lesson which the Kings' rebellious subjects will FOREVER learn is that HE and not they are KING.

The idea that God will just cause those who choose to remain in rebellion against Him to cease to exist [a.k.a Annihilationism] is another demonic lie. God has created all angels and humans as everlasting. The issue is in what state will those angels/humans spend forever? In a state of blesséd fellowship with Him or in a state of everlasting rebellion against Him. If Life is to have any ultimate meaning at all then there can be no third alternative, no Annihilationism for those who want to live for themselves (i.e. in rebellion against the Creator) without any ultimate moral consequences to their actions whatsoever.

The Creator, in order to be both true to and consistent with both His Essential Nature and Character is NEVER going to allow that to happen. The Creator is absolutely incapable of 'turning a blind eye' to sin. That is precisely why the Creator Himself, incarnate as the Messiah, had to die as the atoning propitiation for our rebellion, for our sin (Isa.53:10; Jn.10:17-18; Acts.4:27-28; Acts.20:28(b)).

The Bible teaches that eventually everyone will be resurrected, some to everlasting/Eternal Life and some to everlasting condemnation (Jn.5:28-29). What many do not realize is that the unbelievers also will be given resurrection bodies with which to enter into everlasting condemnation, bodies that will be ideally suited to their final estate (Mk.9:48) since these bodies that we have now would last but fleeting moments in the everlasting lake of fire. It is not just the believers who will get resurrection bodies at their resurrection to everlasting/Eternal Life but also the unbelievers too.

Were Annihilationism possible then the Creator would not have had to die. He would simply annihilate those who chose to remain in a state of rebellion against Him and redeem only those sentient creatures (i.e. humans, fallen angels are beyond redemption) that choose of their own volition to spend forever in a state of blesséd fellowship with Him.

This is not mere human speculation but Divine Revelation. We have been warned. Don't allow the Emerging Church et al. to delude you otherwise.

Simonline.

Good points Simonline.

I'm not certain I agree that annihilation is impossible for God...but
I would argue that annihilation is "illogical" due to sin debt.

I don't believe that the Creator "died" but rather the "Man" (Jesus)
God became is the One who died.

 

[Breckmin]

There are so many ways in which annihilationalism doesn't make sense. Let's just look at the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or the unpardonable sin. Mark 3:29 says they never have forgiveness....but that is what annihilation really is....it is a form of forgiveness because there is no longer the punishment for the collection of sin debt once the violator is annihilated. Annihilationalism (before paying off the debt in hell) is forgiveness without reward or further consequence of prior sin. Your reference to the Cross here and Jesus' death is incongruous. Jesus suffered as the God/Man Who was innocent. Not one hair on His head should have been harmed. He died of a broken heart when His physical heart burst. For Jesus to even be separated from the Father in anyway (such as fellowship) should never be compared to the sinner being annihilated. As sinner would love to be annihilated and not have to pay for his/her sin. It is clearly giving them what they want. You can not compare the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross to annihilation, It is
a big no no (and illogical) because Jesus was innocent as well as God Incarnate.

[Edit: It is also rather thoughtless and over simplistic to ever compare annihilation
to capital punishment. The person is sent to judgment in the afterlife as well as the
fact that capital punishment is a deterrent, capital punishment is only for murder, etc.etc.]

Second, you completely miss the concept of righteousness being displayed through justice. Even if there were no scriptures...we would still have the spiritual conviction to understand that God's Holiness is glorified in confronting sin and displaying His Perfect Justice.
Third, if the lost are annihilated, there is no symmetry from which to contrast justice and grace/mercy/heaven. God's justice to the annihilated exists as a one time event that is no longer efficacious toward them...because they no longer exist. The Cross is eternally effectual to those in heaven. Grace is also diminished in relationship to annihilation. We are now only saved from non-existence rather than being saved from the horror of the consequences of our sin. If hell is temporary and becomes non existent...it will eternally fade in heaven as we live without its reality or without its display. This is yet another reason why annihilationalism makes no sense to me,
Forth, we are created in God's Image. If we are not eternal beings like angels then why call us anything close to God's Image? What good was being self aware if one becomes unaware and annihilated? The Image of God mathematically fades toward non-existence as we go further and further into eternity. This makes no sense to me. The only thing which makes sense is the eternal being of our spiritual existence where God's Conscious/Spiritual Image is eternal in us. How can we deny the logic of symmetry with running parallel to God's eternal being. Eternal existence is the only thing which makes logical sense which will not eternally fade like the temporary things which do indeed
have eternal consequences (eternal effects) for those who DO make it to heaven.
Let's just take "choices" or decisions for example. All decisions that affect other people are eternal decisions because they have an eternal effect. If I kill someone I affect their eternity. If someone rapes a woman...her life is eternally affected. Why is it that only those in heaven would experience eternal effects of choices in this lifetime and the choices that other people (did to them) made and the annihilated do NOT have choices in this lifetime with eternal effects.
It makes no sense to me to have this lack of symmetry.
Finally, it is the nature of sin to be eternal...not because it is against the magnitude of an infinite Creator but rather because time/duration continues on forever with the existences of finite beings who move from location to location, etc. For all of eternity the historical record of this temporary creation will exist. God is omniscient and does not forget like a person with amnesia. Sins/moral evil would remain in the historical record of the temporary creation for all of eternity as being unpaid for UNLESS you wrongfully apply the Sacrifice of Jesus to the unbeliever (without their faith). In which case, you might as well proclaim the heresy of universalism and allow them into heaven since they would be spotless.
It makes no sense to me. Clearly the historical orthodox position of eternal hell/eternal separation from heaven (eternal torment is not a good contemporary nomenclature) is the only position of symmetry which glorifies God's grace and justice for all of eternity. It is the only logical position when you prayerfully consider the Holiness of God (God's incommunicable holiness). I would encourage you to fast and pray about this. God Bless.

 

[Breckmin]

Matthew 10:28—"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

The body doesn't annihilate when someone kills someone else. There
IS a separation of body from soul/spirit.

Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

The same word is used here for "kill" sometimes it does NOT mean
annihilate. Ask yourself a simple question...does the body someone
has now ever end up in hell? No. People's bodies degrade or de-
compose into dust/soil. The only way that body could end up in hell
is if it is raised as a body to be thrown into hell. Yet the lake of fire
is eternal and we know what Rev. 20:10-15 says. So clearly killing
a soul by sending it to hell is separating it from the experience of
life. That life would be with Jesus Christ in the new heaven and
new earth.

Psalms 9:5—"You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever."

Does this really mean that there is a book somewhere and a name
somehow gets erased...and then God has amnesia? No. The Psalmist
is talking about killing his enemies in this life...in war. They stumble
and perish in verse 3, and also "uprooted the cities; the very memory
of them has perished" is clearly referring to this life. Does that mean
they were annihilated on the spot? Of course not. They died like
everyone else and their bodies had to be buried and decompose like
everyone one else's. Perish never meant annihilation.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Death does not mean annihilation...death is a separation from God's
affectionate fellowship....OR physical death is separation of the soul/
spirit from the body. Clearly Romans 6:23 with respect to eternity
is elliptical and if applied to the afterlife would be "the wages of sin
is eternal death." This is the only thing which would be consistent
with symmetry discussed in the prior post.

Gensis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Does that mean there is no afterlife? Clearly there IS existence
after we physically die...and we are not merely dust...that would
deny human consciousness and put us in the same camp as the
naturalist who believes in reductive materialism.

You’re right that God holds all things in existence. Why would God continue to hold creatures in existence for the sheer purpose of hurting them?

Hurt and torture are things other creatures do to each other. A
perfect Judge/Creator giving its creation punishment in the form of
different degrees of pain is not the same thing as torture. What you
are missing is that they have created sin debt and it must be paid for.
If they do not accept the payment Jesus made for them on the Cross
by having faith and trusting Him as their personal Savior, then they
are going to have to pay for all of their wrong doing themselves in
hell. It is a horrible thing for a sinner to suffer justice under a Holy
God/Creator. They DO owe a debt.

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
And God is love (1 John 4:8)

God is also Holy. His Perfection and Holiness will not fellowship
with imperfection. We must be made perfect (through faith in
Jesus' Sacrifice) in order to have fellowship with God and have
our sin debt forgiven.....otherwise we will have to pay every
penny.

The same one (Jesus) who said “Love your enemies” also said “If you see me you see the father”. When Peter cut off the centurion’s ear Jesus healed it.

Jesus came first as a Savior. When He comes back it will also be as
a Judge. Remember that He will say to many "depart from me.."
into where? We love our enemies and we pray for them...but that
doesn't mean we can ignore God's incommunicable holiness and
expect God to be exactly like us. We are sinners. We deserve the
same fate as the lost, but we are saved by grace. We would ALL
ask God not to send anyone to eternal hell. We are not the perfect
judge Who's Nature is Holy and can not tolerate sin (or fellowship
with it).

Jesus was about forgiveness not revenge.

Hell is not about a human concept of revenge. When it says "vengeance
is mine" it could just as easily be paraphrased as "justice is mine."
God takes no pleasure in the justice of the wicked...but He will perfectly
judge them and His Righteousness is displayed through His Justice.

Also, what is so wonderful about not existing? I was raised atheist and death always scared me. The concept of just ENDING… of being nothing and nowhere forever… of everything you ever thought and felt gone forever is awful!

For the unbeliever to be forgiven of his/her sin debt and annihilated
would require forgiveness. Annihilation would be an escape. When
people fear death, they are fearing multiple things. The fear of what
kind of pain they will experience...the fear of the unknown...the fear
of coming judgment before a holy God, etc. It is innately in us to
fear death...that does not meany that death is the same thing as
annihilation. To even think that it would be is an extreme over-
simplification. It is not logical to fear "not existing." There would
be no pain...no fear...no consciousness, etc.

Furthermore why would God even allow evil to even EXSIST at all?

This is an important question and falls under what we call "theodicy."
Most people do not understand why God created the temporary creation
and allowed evil to exist...especially if the majority of people would in
up in eternal hell...and that is why they so struggle with the concept
of eternal hell and have trouble accepting its coming reality.

If you are interested I would be happy to answer this question in a
different thread. It requires a comprehensive theodicy and an under-
standing of how the temporary creation and God's purposes for it are
multifaceted. It is a big answer...but a most important one in under-
standing why eternal hell is the most logical symmetry for a compre-
hensive theodicy.

Destroying it entirely and permanently would be more fitting with reconciling all things to God (Colossians 1:20).

There is no forgiveness for satan and his demons. They must be
eternally separated from God's affectionate fellowship and punished
for their evil. This is also a form of reconciling to the Judge of all
things. A form of reconciling accounts or reconciling debts...not
just restoration. Hell is also multifaceted...in that you can not
just look at it as mere punishment. The separation from the new
heaven and new earth is distinct from the different levels of punishment
(based on their deeds/works) which are given there.

In a new perfect creation there is no place for evil! Not even sanctioned off in one little dark corner of crweation.

God's Justice (to make all things right and give consequences) is holy.
Hell/the Lake of Fire will be holy unto the Lord. Jeremiah 31:38-40.
Read Rev. 14:11. There are other verses which corroborate.

Yes exactly: Destroy. Consume. End. Eliminate.

When a King destroys someone...he/they do not annihilate them. The purpose of Simonline's point was to display to them. This can not happen
if they are somehow annihilated.

Biblically where do you get this? Can you quote verse that says humans are all created immortal?

We would never say that humans are created immortal. That is an incorrect
way to describe it. We would say that man is created in God's Image
and is therefore an "eternal being." This is less confusing then using
the English word "immortal" which fails to distinguish between the
dynamics of biological immortality and spiritual existence.
As far as existence for the unbeliever after life, there are many.
It is a synthetic conclusion based on multiple scriptures...like the one's
I have already given you. John 5:29.

What I see in the bible is that immortality and eternal life are ALWAYS a gift from God and a reward.

Those in hell do not have eternal "life" but rather eternal existence.
Immortal or immortality is an imperfect word to even attempt to apply
to this conversation logically and not fall victim to equivocations.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Symmetrical eternal death with eternal life. Eternal death is separation
from God's affectionate fellowship. Eternal life is NOT the same biological
life we have now with corruptible bodies. We get glorified bodies.

 

[Breckmin]

Titus 3:7—"so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

The unbeliever does not get eternal life but eternal damnation.

1 Cor 15:53—"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

For the believer.

1 Tim 6:15-16—"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality..."

An elliptical statement involving a Greek word for "un-death" which fails to
address angels and fallen angels as well as how God has created us in His
Conscious Image and symmetrically made us eternal beings to be enjoyed
or eternally judged. God alone has the power of immortality but that
doesn't mean that God has not created other eternal existences which
don't die physically because they are not physical.

Rom 2:6-7—"[God] will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..."

Read verse 8. You can't have wrath and indignation once you are non
existence.

And everyone’s favorite:

John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Eternally "perish" in hell and the LOF has always been the orthodox
(and dominant view of the church) interpretation. It never meant
annihilation.

What do you mean no consequences whatsoever? Of course they will have consequences!

How can you give consequences once they are annihilated?
They would have to be forgiven of their sin debt.

Wages of sin death (Romans 6:23)

Death= separation of soul/spirit from body. Spiritual death is separation
from holy fellowship with God.

The body and soul of a sinner will be destroyed in hell (Matt 10:28)

What body? A glorified body? Or the body that already decomposed
that is no longer a body? eternally destroyed in hell is not the same
thing as annihilation.

Unless you repent you will parish (Luke 13 1-5)

Perish (NOT annihilate) in the eternal fires of hell.

You do realize, I assume, that if you cease to exist you are by definition eternally separated from God? In fact ceasing to exist is the only way TO be eternally separated from God because God is continually holding all things and all people in existence, if God stopped holding you in existence you would cease to be.

You can not be separated from something that doesn't exist.

Do you think eternal destruction annihilation is strong enough punishment for the likes of Gandhi? That God should, against his character of love and grace, continue to hold such people into existence purely for the purpose of torturing them?

Torture is something evil men do to other men. God owns us all and is
the perfect judge. Whatever sins Gandhi did, he will have to pay for
if he does not have Jesus Christ as an advocate before the Father.
Annihilation is not really punishment unless you were to somehow
feel pain in the process. Then it would be the pain that was the punish-
ment, not the annihilation. Annihilation is actually a form of forgiveness...
IF the person has any sin debt before God.

Yes, being destroyed for ever definitely qualifies. The death sentence is forever. You will be raised, judged, and if you are found to be less then perfect you can not enter God’s perfect world and are destroyed. Now none of us are perfect so enter Jesus (as you mentioned earlier)

If you understood that "destroyed" and "death" did not mean annihilation
then bible believing Christians should be able to agree with you.

I see no where in the bible “The wicked will be raised with incorruptible immortal bodies” that gift is reserved purely repentant sinner.

The correct view of eternal hell does NOT claim that the bodies are
incorruptible...they could be corrupted due to sin and not very attractive
(we don't know), but they are for the purpose of eternal death/judgment

Rev. 20:10-15 is one passage on the second death. See also John 5:29.
There are other verses with add the the synthetic conclusion of eternal
existence. (I would not use the term immortal).

Why not?

I would ask Simonline the same question. The question is not really
whether annihilation of an eternal being is possible or not...we don't
really know... the real question is Does scripture teach annihilation?
And clearly that answer is "no."

The other question is "is annihilation logical?" Or "is it logical for
God to annihilate those who have sin debt?" The correct answer
to that question is also "no."

Without Jesus he would have to annihilate EVERYONE. Destroy his entire creation which he loves for all eternity. We are so thankful that he didn’t choose to do that. Instead he became a man and taught us to love, and promised us the gift of eternal life if we promised to follow and obey him. THAT is divine revelation

The historical view, the orthodox view, the correct view is that God KNEW
He would become Incarnate and that Jesus would demonstrate self-sacrificing
love. Otherwise, perhaps God would have never created man in His
Image and let us multiple if we were all going to be eternally separated
from His affectionate fellowship. Instead God gives grace to some,
and perfect justice and separation to the rest. Remember that there
are fallen angels who will be eternally separated also (from fellowship,
NOT from God's omnipresence).

I would encourage you to pray and fast and ask God to deliver you
from your own human agenda (and what you want to believe).
Ask God to deliver you from that which is not true.

None of us "wants" to believe in eternal hell.... it is however a
correct spiritual conviction of how GREAT our salvation is that
leaves us awe struck in that we are truly saved from the unfathomable
consequences of our incredibly wicked sin. God is unfathomably holy.

Our sin is unfathomably wicked in His sight. The Sacrifice of Jesus
dying on the Cross is indeed a great salvation...saving us from
eternal consequences...and not just mere annihilation.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

But then what would be the POINT of pain and suffering in Hell?

Pain is a gift from God in order to TEACH us, and to let us know when something isn't right so we can CHANGE it.

Or to let us know something needs tender or special treatment (Say a broken leg) for our PROTECTION.

Even emotional pain is to let you know when things are not right, so you can get out of a bad situation, or change the way you act (depending on what is causing the pain).

That is so true about pain teaching us,I've been going through a trial on and off for a couple months and even though it hurts,and I feel remorse I've been growing so much closer to God through it,and been running to him for comfort.

 

[Armistead14]

God is love, but God is also Holy. Something Holy cannot allow sin within its Presence. I always assumed hell was a total separation from God. To me, that is a far worst punishment than any sort of forever kind of hell we think in the vein that Dante describes in his comedy.

It is not cruel of God to separate himself from you eternally. That wasn't His choice to begin with, but yours.

If God is truly omnipresent...then how could he separate himself from sin or not allow it in his presence? If hell exist, then God would be there.

Christ died to pay for our sins. If our sin caused us to be eternally tormented, then the only way Christ could pay for our sins would be to suffer eternal torment.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

If God is truly omnipresent...then how could he separate himself from sin or not allow it in his presence? If hell exist, then God would be there.

Christ died to pay for our sins. If our sin caused us to be eternally tormented, then the only way Christ could pay for our sins would be to suffer eternal torment.

....because regardless of how powerful something is. It cannot do something contradictory to its nature. Now matter how much power you have you will still never do anything that contradicts your very nature.

How can God separate Himself from sin? The Holiness of His nature implies separation. God has limits, but it doesn't limit Him in any way. Sin is, in reality, a limitation.

 

[Armistead14]

....because regardless of how powerful something is. It cannot do something contradictory to its nature. Now matter how much power you have you will still never do anything that contradicts your very nature.

How can God separate Himself from sin? The Holiness of His nature implies separation. God has limits, but it doesn't limit Him in any way. Sin is, in reality, a limitation.

The majority of people would end up in hell by default of birth, where they were born and cultural indoctrination. If you or I were born in Iran, 90% chance we would be muslim. Then they're countless millions that never heard the gospel and millions of children that die never hearing the gospel.

Just think of the 6 million Jews Hitler tortured and killed, they loved God, prayed daily, but few believed in Christ. The only hope most had was death, but think how they'll feel standing before God and having him reject them and then becoming worse than Hitler to them throwing them into eternal torture...

The Roman political church redefined hell as something more than death adding many common pagan concepts of torture to it. If you study history, this was needed to control the masses....absolute fear keeps people in line. Sadly, when the church accepted a God that would torture, they took up torturing themselves, if God could do it, then so could they in his name.

If you study hebrew and greek you must study how the words were used in the period written, because even greek words evolve in use. Course as scripture was translated to latin and english, words were further redefined, but mostly to suit the political religious purpose of the period.