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Hebrews

Tanakh

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I think you are being a bit disingenuous here, Tanakh. This question you keep asking has been answered under several guises. Just to summarise - there is now no need for sacrifices as per Moshe etc because G_d provided Yeshua to pay the price, to take the sin of the world upon himself (in much the same way as the goat was used in Temple days to take the sin of Y'srael). Your question is, therefore, one to which you have been given the answer more than once. If your faith dis-allows such an answer then it is pointless to keep asking the same question, albeit wrappped in different words each time, because you wll keep getting the same answer, albeit wrapped in different words, as well!

I was not asking a question but was rather trying to answer another question.

The reason why I have been asking certin questions is to get as many possible answers and if I can word my question a particular way then the answer I get will hopefully be given in accordance with the way I asked the question. In this way I can get a better perspective on the subject. It is not meant to drag-out the thread for as long as I can but rather is meant to gain knowledge about the subject and just as I keep asking questions, some of which criss-cross, so to does the Gospels reference itself again and again by stating the same thing over and over to make the point known. The Torah does this in some places as well in oder to force the point so that every angle possible is covered.
 
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Tanakh

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You can't have an each way bet, Tanakh. Either you are forgiven NOW without the shedding of blood or you are not. Your rabbis say you are forgiven without animal sacrifices.....if this is so, then surely rebuilding the Temple to kill innocent animals is unnecessary, no?

(Christianity alone tells us why God no longer makes available the killing of animals as sin offerings).

It was the goy world that destroyed the Temple and so when a Rabbi states scripture in accordance with the world after 70ce it is done so on the basis of a history which Israel was forced into by its enemies and so the Rabbis are still obligated to strive to rebuild the Temple just as the prophets Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi stated in the Tanakh. For HASHEM said,

"The time has not yet come!" [But I say] "It is the time for the Temple of HASHEM to be rebuilt!" - Haggai 1:2

"Thus said HASHEM, Master of Legions: Return unto Me - the word of HASHEM, Master of Legions - and I will return unto you, said HASHEM, Master of Legions." - Zechariah 1:3

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout for joy, O daughter of Jerusalem! For behold, your king will come to you, righteous and victorious is he, a humble man riding upon a donkey, upon a foal, a calf of she-donkeys. I will eliminate any [battle]-chariot from Ephraim and any [war] horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of warfare will be eliminated; and he will speak peace to the nations, His dominion will be from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth." - Zechariah 9:9-10

"And now, this commandment is upon you, O Kohanim. If you do not listen and do not make it to heart to render honor to My Name, says HAHSEM, Master of Legions, I will send the curse among you and I will curse your blessings. Indeed I have already cursed it, for you do not take to heart. Behold, I am suppressing the seed because of you; and I will scatter filth upon your faces, the filth of your festive offerings; [your sin] will carry you to this. Know that I have sent this commandment to you, so that My covenant should be with Levi, says HASHEM, Master of Legions. My covenant was with him, life and peace; I gave these to him for the sake of the fear with which he feared Me, for he was in awe of My Name. The teaching of truth was in his mouth, and injustice was not found on his lips; he walked with Me in peace and with fariness, and turned many away from iniquity. For the lips of the Kohen should safeguard knowledge, and people should seek teaching from his mouth; for he is an agent of HASHEM, Master of Legions. But you have veered from the path; you have caused many people to stumble through [your] teaching. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says HASHEM, Master of Legions. Therefore, I have also made you repulsive and lowly to all the people, because you do not observe My ways and you show favoritism in [your] teaching." - Malachi 2:1-9

The prophets are saying that if the people do not return to G-d then they will be destoryed in their evil ways. Instead of bickering about the times we live in we should rebuild the Temple as to revive the ancient way because it may be outdated in today's mindset but it was a law and a covenant for the ages.
 
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ContraMundum

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It was the goy world that destroyed the Temple and so when a Rabbi states scripture in accordance with the world after 70ce it is done so on the basis of a history which Israel was forced into by its enemies and so the Rabbis are still obligated to strive to rebuild the Temple just as the prophets Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi stated in the Tanakh. For HASHEM said,

So, are you forgiven without the killing of innocent animals, as clearly commanded in the Torah, or not? Simple- if you are forgiven without the shedding of blood, then half of the Torah was a waste of time (unless those sacrifices had a meaning that has been fulfilled!). If not, then you have a problem.


"The time has not yet come!" [But I say] "It is the time for the Temple of HASHEM to be rebuilt!" - Haggai 1:2

Written before Dec 520 BCE. Fulfilled very shortly afterward.

"Thus said HASHEM, Master of Legions: Return unto Me - the word of HASHEM, Master of Legions - and I will return unto you, said HASHEM, Master of Legions." - Zechariah 1:3
I have no idea why you cited that.

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout for joy, O daughter of Jerusalem! For behold, your king will come to you, righteous and victorious is he, a humble man riding upon a donkey, upon a foal, a calf of she-donkeys. I will eliminate any [battle]-chariot from Ephraim and any [war] horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of warfare will be eliminated; and he will speak peace to the nations, His dominion will be from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth." - Zechariah 9:9-10

Or that.

"And now, this commandment is upon you, O Kohanim. If you do not listen and do not make it to heart to render honor to My Name, says HAHSEM, Master of Legions, I will send the curse among you and I will curse your blessings. Indeed I have already cursed it, for you do not take to heart. Behold, I am suppressing the seed because of you; and I will scatter filth upon your faces, the filth of your festive offerings; [your sin] will carry you to this. Know that I have sent this commandment to you, so that My covenant should be with Levi, says HASHEM, Master of Legions. My covenant was with him, life and peace; I gave these to him for the sake of the fear with which he feared Me, for he was in awe of My Name. The teaching of truth was in his mouth, and injustice was not found on his lips; he walked with Me in peace and with fariness, and turned many away from iniquity. For the lips of the Kohen should safeguard knowledge, and people should seek teaching from his mouth; for he is an agent of HASHEM, Master of Legions. But you have veered from the path; you have caused many people to stumble through [your] teaching. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says HASHEM, Master of Legions. Therefore, I have also made you repulsive and lowly to all the people, because you do not observe My ways and you show favoritism in [your] teaching." - Malachi 2:1-9

Or that.

The prophets are saying that if the people do not return to G-d then they will be destoryed in their evil ways. Instead of bickering about the times we live in we should rebuild the Temple as to revive the ancient way because it may be outdated in today's mindset but it was a law and a covenant for the ages.

That's one interpretation. I don't think it adds up though, esp in the case of Haggai.
 
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Tanakh

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So, are you forgiven without the killing of innocent animals, as clearly commanded in the Torah, or not? Simple- if you are forgiven without the shedding of blood, then half of the Torah was a waste of time (unless those sacrifices had a meaning that has been fulfilled!). If not, then you have a problem.




Written before Dec 520 BCE. Fulfilled very shortly afterward.


I have no idea why you cited that.



Or that.



Or that.



That's one interpretation. I don't think it adds up though, esp in the case of Haggai.


And if half the Torah was a waste of time then Christianity has a problem in its theology since it basis its "word" on the Torah.

I cited them to show that G-d expects Jews to strive to serve Him at all times and that if we return to Him He will return to us, hence Zechariah, and that in order to serve Him the Temple must be rebuilt.
 
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And if half the Torah was a waste of time then Christianity has a problem in its theology since it basis its "word" on the Torah.

Actually, that argument doesn't work. Why? Because Christianity explains why animal sacrifices are no longer made available and why they were given at Sinai in the first place. Messiah's religion explains everything and makes sense of it all.

I cited them to show that G-d expects Jews to strive to serve Him at all times and that if we return to Him He will return to us, hence Zechariah, and that in order to serve Him the Temple must be rebuilt.

But your timing is all wrong. Zechariah was written between 519 and 520 BC. The rebuilding of the Temple commenced in 520. Therefore, the Temple Zechariah was speaking has already been rebuilt- and later destroyed.
 
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Tanakh

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Actually, that argument doesn't work. Why? Because Christianity explains why animal sacrifices are no longer made available and why they were given at Sinai in the first place. Messiah's religion explains everything and makes sense of it all.

That's my point. Another religion is stating scripture about my religion.

But your timing is all wrong. Zechariah was written between 519 and 520 BC. The rebuilding of the Temple commenced in 520. Therefore, the Temple Zechariah was speaking has already been rebuilt- and later destroyed.

Yes, I realize that the events spoken of in Zechariah have already occured as my point was to show that whenever the enemies of G-d destroy it (the Temple) or try to destory Israel then Jews have a duty and responsibility to fight back and rebuild it. 2070ce will mark the 2000 years since the Temple was destroyed so it is time to rebuild it.
 
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That's my point. Another religion is stating scripture about my religion.

But your religion looks forward to a Messianic religion. Do you honestly think the Messiah would have/will come in such a way that things would not change? Is the Messiah made in the image of the current religion? Think about it- the Chasids expect a Chasid, the Modern Orthodox expect a Modern Orthodox, the Reform expect either a reform or a symbolic messiah and so on. Everyone expects the Messiah to meet their own expectations.

I am here to say that Messiah has come, and is coming back. My religion is your religion. My Judaism has accepted the Messiah on His terms, not ours. I suspect there are people in your sect of Judaism that are prepared to take Messiah also on His terms- but most expect Him to meet their own interpretations of Torah and look, act and think like them. Thus they will reject what the Messiah because He is not what they wanted. This of course was played out in the 1stC.

Christianity (trans. Hebr. "Messianic religion") is by nature what Judaism is waiting for- the Messianic religion- the completion, fulfillment and embodyment of Judaism and Israel.

So, I am not stating scripture from another religion, but from the same religion- and I can easily demonstrate that the Christian interpretation of the Tanakh has precendents in pre-Christian Judaism. We do not cast new interpretations on the Tanakh, but embrace ancient ones. The Messiah Yeshua is found in pre-Christian Judiac tradition and scripture.

Yes, I realize that the events spoken of in Zechariah have already occured as my point was to show that whenever the enemies of G-d destroy it (the Temple) or try to destory Israel then Jews have a duty and responsibility to fight back and rebuild it. 2070ce will mark the 2000 years since the Temple was destroyed so it is time to rebuild it.
I think that is taking liberties with the facts as stated in Zechariah. The Temple was rebuilt, under the order and supervision of Prophets. That kind of gift of prophecy has left Am Israel, according to the Talmud (Sotah 48b)

Besides, this still doesn't answer the question. If your sins are forgiven without the shedding of blood as your rabbis claim, then why is there a need to start WWIII, build a Temple and start killings innocent animals to appease God?

Does not God making His own sacrifice (as prefigured in the life of Abraham on Mt Moriah) for a covenant truly complete the need for sacrifices? The killing of innocent animals makes no sense if you claim you are forgiven by other means- unless they foreshadow an end to sacrifice, it being completed by God Himself.

How can one improve on a Covenant that God Himself seals by His own Son's blood by slaying animals?
 
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Tanakh

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But your religion looks forward to a Messianic religion. Do you honestly think the Messiah would have/will come in such a way that things would not change? Is the Messiah made in the image of the current religion? Think about it- the Chasids expect a Chasid, the Modern Orthodox expect a Modern Orthodox, the Reform expect either a reform or a symbolic messiah and so on. Everyone expects the Messiah to meet their own expectations.

I am here to say that Messiah has come, and is coming back. My religion is your religion. My Judaism has accepted the Messiah on His terms, not ours. I suspect there are people in your sect of Judaism that are prepared to take Messiah also on His terms- but most expect Him to meet their own interpretations of Torah and look, act and think like them. Thus they will reject what the Messiah because He is not what they wanted. This of course was played out in the 1stC.

Christianity (trans. Hebr. "Messianic religion") is by nature what Judaism is waiting for- the Messianic religion- the completion, fulfillment and embodyment of Judaism and Israel.

So, I am not stating scripture from another religion, but from the same religion- and I can easily demonstrate that the Christian interpretation of the Tanakh has precendents in pre-Christian Judaism. We do not cast new interpretations on the Tanakh, but embrace ancient ones. The Messiah Yeshua is found in pre-Christian Judiac tradition and scripture.

Yes I do believe one day the Messaih will come and he will follow the Torah and so he would be Orthodox as the other "denominations" dismiss parts of the Torah in order to appease the modern world. The Messiah will meet the expectations of Torah law and so even if I were to reject the Torah I would not be able to say that because I have rejected the law that now the Messiah will be simplified for me because of my lack of belief. The Messiah will do what is neccessary in order to fulfill his mission without going against the Torah.

I do find it interesting that some Christians look more to the Tanakh and correct biblical history, for example the concept that Jesus was born on December 25 which in fact would have been incorrect as the theological basis of the Gospels would indicate that he was born in the Spring or the Fall, not the Winter. Christians who celebrate Christmas as the mass of Christ by not giving gifts but rather celebrating the comming of the Messiah. From a standpoint of theology I understand this standpoint more because is does not diminish something in order to persue commercial gain. This is also demonstrated in the fact that some Christian denominations will claim that Israel has been replaced by the Church, specifically the Catholic Church, and so the "Old Testament" is not only made void by this but is also herectical in some cases. This concept angers Jews to an extreme for obvious reasons.

I think that is taking liberties with the facts as stated in Zechariah. The Temple was rebuilt, under the order and supervision of Prophets. That kind of gift of prophecy has left Am Israel, according to the Talmud (Sotah 48b)

Besides, this still doesn't answer the question. If your sins are forgiven without the shedding of blood as your rabbis claim, then why is there a need to start WWIII, build a Temple and start killings innocent animals to appease God?

Does not God making His own sacrifice (as prefigured in the life of Abraham on Mt Moriah) for a covenant truly complete the need for sacrifices? The killing of innocent animals makes no sense if you claim you are forgiven by other means- unless they foreshadow an end to sacrifice, it being completed by God Himself.

How can one improve on a Covenant that God Himself seals by His own Son's blood by slaying animals?

The age of prophecy ended several hundred years before Christ, so yes the current Israel is nothing compared to the Israel of old, mainly do to the fact that Israel has given up its G-d given right to the land in favor of the "peace process". Thus we have gone from the "Finial Solution" to the "Two-state Solution" in less then 70 years. The "Palestinians" strive for Israel's destruction regardless of what the world thinks and so destroying the Mosque is not only just but a duty because the fact that this building still stands is not only an afront to G-d but also to the sanctity and posterity of the future of every Jew. The Dome of the Rock must be destroyed.

"How can one improve on a Covenant that G-d Himself seals by His own Son's blood by slaying animals?"

This is why Judaism rejects Christianity, for how can G-d have a son? How can, as you claim, Christianity be the "fulfillment" of G-d's providence in history when evidence of this fulfillment is not found in Jewish law?
 
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Tanakh

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[Polite cough] If you consider Christianity or the Messianic movement to be 'another religion(s)' then you stand condemned by your own argument here, do you not?

If Christianity, just as the Gospels themselves state, decrees that the Torah is fulfilled in Christ but yet claim that providence fulfilled this "plan" throught the law (meaning the Torah), then how can the trinity be implied in the Book of Hebrews? In other words how does Christianity reconcile with Judaism the belief that G-d is "3 in 1"? It is like saying that 1+2=3 but demanding that in fact 3=1. In your view how does the trinity play into Hebrews and the "bigger picture" of salvation found in the Gospels?
 
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If Christianity, just as the Gospels themselves state, decrees that the Torah is fulfilled in Christ but yet claim that providence fulfilled this "plan" throught the law (meaning the Torah), then how can the trinity be implied in the Book of Hebrews? In other words how does Christianity reconcile with Judaism the belief that G-d is "3 in 1"? It is like saying that 1+2=3 but demanding that in fact 3=1. In your view how does the trinity play into Hebrews and the "bigger picture" of salvation found in the Gospels?

Mixed bag of points here. Try dealing with on at a time.
 
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johnd

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Just suppose for a moment Torah was not intended for mankind to fulfill. That by it's very opposition to our human nature it stands as a testimony against that human nature. Along comes Messiah (born with a pre-fall human nature) who has the Spirit of God living in him. As he is fulfilling the Torah he teaches that Torah is a many faceted thing, but it is not the means for dealing with sin... rather it is the identifying standard that we have sins that need to be dealt with. And the Messiah taught a great deal on the subject of undoing what religious leaders (well meaning or not) made Torah out to be something it is not.

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the Torah was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Not that we are to be antinomianists, for there is another law in action...

1 Corinthians 9:19-21
19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

It gives an earnest student of Tanakh pause enough to go back and look into whether or not there is a distinction between "the law" "the Torah" and "my law" "my Torah" (God speaking of course).
 
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Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
 
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Heber

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If Christianity, just as the Gospels themselves state, decrees that the Torah is fulfilled in Christ but yet claim that providence fulfilled this "plan" throught the law (meaning the Torah), then how can the trinity be implied in the Book of Hebrews? In other words how does Christianity reconcile with Judaism the belief that G-d is "3 in 1"? It is like saying that 1+2=3 but demanding that in fact 3=1. In your view how does the trinity play into Hebrews and the "bigger picture" of salvation found in the Gospels?


The fact you continue to overlook is the following - given in very basic terms:

I have 2 grapes, and I have one grape therefore, I have three grapes.

Those grapes are together on a vine and so I have one bunch of grapes. Three equals one. Simple eh what?

G_d is not 3 in 1 G_d is one - but there are three facets - Father, Son and Spirit.

Please explain Elohim...
 
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Shalom,

Many will tell you that the "Law" was done away with after Messiah came, but neither the book of Hebrews nor the rest of the Scriptures state this. Animal sacrifice was the only thing that was done away with, with all the related commandments and dogmas contained in ordinances. We are still commanded to keep the Torah.
Christians tend to push their idea that "the Torah was done away with", and this is not accurate. This sadly turns off many Jews that are interested in the New Testament, because they KNOW that the Torah is age-abiding and will not be abolished while the present earth exists!
 
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Heber

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Shalom,

Many will tell you that the "Law" was done away with after Messiah came, but neither the book of Hebrews nor the rest of the Scriptures state this. Animal sacrifice was the only thing that was done away with, with all the related commandments and dogmas contained in ordinances. We are still commanded to keep the Torah.
Christians tend to push their idea that "the Torah was done away with", and this is not accurate. This sadly turns off many Jews that are interested in the New Testament, because they KNOW that the Torah is age-abiding and will not be abolished while the present earth exists!

The Law stands - go G_d!
 
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Yes I do believe one day the Messaih will come and he will follow the Torah and so he would be Orthodox as the other "denominations" dismiss parts of the Torah in order to appease the modern world. The Messiah will meet the expectations of Torah law and so even if I were to reject the Torah I would not be able to say that because I have rejected the law that now the Messiah will be simplified for me because of my lack of belief. The Messiah will do what is neccessary in order to fulfill his mission without going against the Torah.

Right- and He did. The thing is: you can't judge the orthodoxy or orthopraxy of the Messiah based on 21stC halacha. Why? Simple. If your halacha is wrong, or it has missed the mark somehow, the Messiah will not look like your version of orthodoxy and you will reject Him for all the wrong reasons, your criteria being corrupted and unable to accept the necessary correction given by the Messiah.

This happened in the 1stC when He came. Some Jews knew it was Him, but others, who judged Him according to their own version of orthodoxy, rejected Him.

I do find it interesting that some Christians look more to the Tanakh and correct biblical history, for example the concept that Jesus was born on December 25 which in fact would have been incorrect as the theological basis of the Gospels would indicate that he was born in the Spring or the Fall, not the Winter.
I wouldn't agree with that in part. It is well known on this forum that I support a December nativity, based on scripture, verified by tradition.

Christians who celebrate Christmas as the mass of Christ by not giving gifts but rather celebrating the comming of the Messiah. From a standpoint of theology I understand this standpoint more because is does not diminish something in order to persue commercial gain.
Well, the giving of gifts is not a sin. In fact, it is a good thing and it recalls to memory the gifts that were given to Jesus at His birth. However, the right way to celebrate the birth of Jesus is to attend church, do the mitzvot of Holy Communion and loving your neighbour by feeding the poor.

This is also demonstrated in the fact that some Christian denominations will claim that Israel has been replaced by the Church, specifically the Catholic Church, and so the "Old Testament" is not only made void by this but is also herectical in some cases. This concept angers Jews to an extreme for obvious reasons.
Well, it is a remarkably common misconception to think that replacement theology is believed by many Christians. In fact, it is generally not believed and the idea that the Church has replaced Israel is losing ground in what few places it was held, based on the resurgence of studies into the Book of Romans and other reasons.

I'd also like to encourage you to check out the Catholic Church's position on replacement theology- it has never been the official position of the Church and in fact they as a denomination are doing more to speak against it than any other major church at present. In fact, at the Second Vatican Council, they pretty much made it a forbidden doctrine.

I would heartily recommend this very well researched and written article on the topic. Here it is.

The age of prophecy ended several hundred years before Christ, so yes the current Israel is nothing compared to the Israel of old, mainly do to the fact that Israel has given up its G-d given right to the land in favor of the "peace process". Thus we have gone from the "Finial Solution" to the "Two-state Solution" in less then 70 years. The "Palestinians" strive for Israel's destruction regardless of what the world thinks and so destroying the Mosque is not only just but a duty because the fact that this building still stands is not only an afront to G-d but also to the sanctity and posterity of the future of every Jew. The Dome of the Rock must be destroyed.
I've never been convinced that current political events have any effect on the Torah, nor would they influence God's will. In fact, current events occur within God's will and by His permission. I would argue that the more logical reasons the age of prophecy is over are found written in the NT.

"How can one improve on a Covenant that G-d Himself seals by His own Son's blood by slaying animals?"
This is why Judaism rejects Christianity, for how can G-d have a son?


The Tanakh claims that Israel is God's son too. He has a Son. The problem is that you are thinking along human, not spiritual or divine terms when you approach the Sonship of Jesus of Nazareth.

How can, as you claim, Christianity be the "fulfillment" of G-d's providence in history when evidence of this fulfillment is not found in Jewish law?
I don't really know how one can get around the clear teaching in the Tanakh that speaks of the Messiah's role and mission being a fulfillment of Torah. In fact, you have already mentioned that above in this very post when describing your expectations of the Messiah.

Again, perhaps you might have to clarify your question and outline what you mean by "fulfill".
 
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Tanakh

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The fact you continue to overlook is the following - given in very basic terms:

I have 2 grapes, and I have one grape therefore, I have three grapes.

Those grapes are together on a vine and so I have one bunch of grapes. Three equals one. Simple eh what?

G_d is not 3 in 1 G_d is one - but there are three facets - Father, Son and Spirit.

Please explain Elohim...

"Because G-d's children are human beings - made of flesh and blood - the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying. We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham. Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before G-d. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested." - Hebrews 2:14-18

G-d is the creater of all and therefore G-d, who created life and death, is not responsible to take the affect of life upon himself in order to save us. The thought of G-d suffering at the hands of His creation is paramount to heresy and makes no sense. Satan is not anywhere near as powerful as G-d, contrary to Christianity, and so it is not Satan who as the power of death but rather G-d Himself. G-d created Satan and Satan became the tormentor of humanity but free will dictates that the devil never had total power over us because we have always had the power to resist. G-d cannot feel pain and so He cannot suffer, least of all for the sins of people, whom are not His equal, and so how can there be a trinity when G-d promised free will and promised Noah that He would not destroy humanity again?

Again this debate covers a lot of ground and so it can branch off in many directions but I think for now the discussion of the trinity will help lay the ground work for further debate on the Gospel.
 
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