Hebrews

[Tanakh]

You said, here, that the law will pass away. Grace is given only on those occasions when we break G_d's law - any of it, as Yeshua said (if you break one you break them all (613)). Yeshua did not bring in any new law, as he and Sha'ul says - the Law stands, not a jot or the flick of the pen will change, I believe in everything in accord with the Law and the prophets! Those comments seem pretty conclusive.

Your post above shows no need for grace because you say the law is now superceded - later you say you believe in grace! How can you have it both ways round?

I never said the "Old Law" will be superceded as I was simply stating that Christianity believes that it has been superceded by the Gospel. My view of grace is diferent then that of Christiantiy as I believe grace is to be found in fulfilling the laws as laws. Of course people will act upon the laws but some just do it out of tradition, not giving it a second thought, but to fulfill the commandments, all 613 of them, is grace by carrying out the will of G-d to ones best ability.

The point of the post you quoted was to simply re-state what Christianity believes about the law (the Tanakh, not the Gospel). I was showing how I read the text to mean that Jesus was saying that when he is killed then the law will "pass away" and hence the verse "all things have taken place". Me writting it that way was in no way to imply that I believe what the Gospel was saying.

 

[ContraMundum]

I never said the "Old Law" will be superceded as I was simply stating that Christianity believes that it has been superceded by the Gospel. My view of grace is diferent then that of Christiantiy as I believe grace is to be found in fulfilling the laws as laws. Of course people will act upon the laws but some just do it out of tradition, not giving it a second thought, but to fulfill the commandments, all 613 of them, is grace by carrying out the will of G-d to ones best ability.

In orthodox Christian theology, grace is something God does for us, not something we can do for God (such as mitzvot). Grace is God's gift in us, His presence in our hearts and minds that changes who we are. It is an undeserved gift that forgives us and calls us and enables us to follow the laws.

In our teachings, doing the laws does not merit or earn or increase grace, rather, grace enables a sinner to seek after God and do His mitzvot. Without grace we remain far from God and have no desire to seek after Him. God's grace is abounding, even outside of the Church.

When a person changes the course of his life and gives up his sins, this is a response to God's grace towards and in him. When he does the law with a pure heart and with humility, he is responding to God's grace.

No, one cannot be a true follower of Jesus if one has no works, it's just that works don't earn us grace, grace brings forth works. A dog barks because he is a dog, not to become one.

(Also, we understand that the Gospel was foreshadowed in the Tanakh, that is, that one is justified by faith. In the NT, Abraham is used as an example)

The point of the post you quoted was to simply re-state what Christianity believes about the law (the Tanakh, not the Gospel). I was showing how I read the text to mean that Jesus was saying that when he is killed then the law will "pass away" and hence the verse "all things have taken place". Me writting it that way was in no way to imply that I believe what the Gospel was saying.

Elements of the Law have passed away- such as animal sacrifices, stoning people to death and so forth- there are many- sure they are still there in writing to teach us about sin, but they cannot be carried out- according to God's will in that He has brought their cessation to be.

The law does remain, however. Not one point has been discarded, but those portions that pointed to the Cross were mere shadows. The substance of those shadows has arrived. You don't need the shadow when the substance has arrived. You can't kill an animal for God, because God's offering to us was better. The only reason God accepted the blood of an animal is because His Son died in eternity, making sacrifices before and after the Cross real and effective. The animals pointed forward to His sacrifice, the sacraments today point back to it, but all the graces are made effective because of the Cross.

The laws you can do that apply to you, you should do- but always in love. Pretty simple, really.

Anyway- that's this Christian's take on it.

One thing you may grow to like about Christianity in general- like Judaism, there are lots of points of view that all add to the same treasure trove we have. You'll hear lots of differing views but the vast majority of them will ultimately be complimentary, even if not at first obviously so. This has also been my experience with Judaism. It looks messy until you put a lot of work into it.

Take time and enjoy.

 

[Tanakh]

In orthodox Christian theology, grace is something God does for us, not something we can do for God (such as mitzvot). Grace is God's gift in us, His presence in our hearts and minds that changes who we are. It is an undeserved gift that forgives us and calls us and enables us to follow the laws.

In our teachings, doing the laws does not merit or earn or increase grace, rather, grace enables a sinner to seek after God and do His mitzvot. Without grace we remain far from God and have no desire to seek after Him. God's grace is abounding, even outside of the Church.

When a person changes the course of his life and gives up his sins, this is a response to God's grace towards and in him. When he does the law with a pure heart and with humility, he is responding to God's grace.

No, one cannot be a true follower of Jesus if one has no works, it's just that works don't earn us grace, grace brings forth works. A dog barks because he is a dog, not to become one.

(Also, we understand that the Gospel was foreshadowed in the Tanakh, that is, that one is justified by faith. In the NT, Abraham is used as an example)

Elements of the Law have passed away- such as animal sacrifices, stoning people to death and so forth- there are many- sure they are still there in writing to teach us about sin, but they cannot be carried out- according to God's will in that He has brought their cessation to be.

The law does remain, however. Not one point has been discarded, but those portions that pointed to the Cross were mere shadows. The substance of those shadows has arrived. You don't need the shadow when the substance has arrived. You can't kill an animal for God, because God's offering to us was better. The only reason God accepted the blood of an animal is because His Son died in eternity, making sacrifices before and after the Cross real and effective. The animals pointed forward to His sacrifice, the sacraments today point back to it, but all the graces are made effective because of the Cross.

The laws you can do that apply to you, you should do- but always in love. Pretty simple, really.

Anyway- that's this Christian's take on it.

One thing you may grow to like about Christianity in general- like Judaism, there are lots of points of view that all add to the same treasure trove we have. You'll hear lots of differing views but the vast majority of them will ultimately be complimentary, even if not at first obviously so. This has also been my experience with Judaism. It looks messy until you put a lot of work into it.

Take time and enjoy.

"This day, HASHEM, your G-d, commands you to perform these decrees and the statutes, and you shall observe and perform them will all your heart and with all your soul. You have distinguished HASHEM today to be a G-d for you, and to walk in His ways, and to observe His decrees, His commandments, and His statutes, and to hearken to His voice. And HASHEM has distinguished you today to be for Him a treasured people, as He spoke to you, and to observe all His commandments, and to make you supreme over all the nations that He made, for praise, for renown, and for splendor, and so that you will be a holy people to HASHEM, your G-d, as He spoke." - Deuteronomy 26:16-19

This verse clearly demonstrates that the Law of G-d is be an enternal law as the passage reads, "and so that you will be a holy people to HASHEM, your G-d, as He spoke." meaning that the promise is forever and so are G-d's laws which nothing can brake. All 613 laws still apply and, for example, if the Dome of the Rock is preventing the Temple to be rebuilt in its proper place, this of course hinders some of the laws being carried out, and so aiding in Israel's destruction then it must be removed in order to start again the Temple offerings. If Jesus Christ demanded that the world should come to his calling and for the world to heed to his words then how can a Jew accept in anyway those words when they go against what we Jews know to be scripture?

 

[mizzdy]

The Letter to the Hebrews (sometimes called The Book of Hebrews) is attributed to the Apostle Paul, although some doubt that he wrote it, but it nonetheless is striking to me, a Jew, because it was written to converts from Judaism to Christianity, Messianic Jews if you will, and so my question is that many Christians will state that the "New Testament" is only a fulfillment of the "Old Testament" and yet the Gospels clearly state that the entire "old law" is made void by Jesus Christ:

"But he (Jesus) is worthy of more "glory" than Moses, as the founder of a house has more "honor" than the house itself." - Hebrews 3:3

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. But he finds fault with them and says:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the L-rd, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they did not stand by my covenant and I ignored them, says the L-rd. But this is the covenant I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the L-rd: I will put my laws in their minds and I will write them upon their hearts. I will be their G-d and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his fellow citizen and kinsman, saying, "Know the L-rd," for all shall know me, from least to greatest. For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more."

When he speaks of a "new" covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing." - Hebrews 8:7-13

And yet to say that the "first covenant" was not "faultless" implies that G-d screwed up and must therefore, because of the actions of His creation, create a "new covenant" for mankind (obviously logic would dictate mankind will screw this one up as well). Thus if G-d is all-knowing then why would he not have forseen the "old law" fall apart and therefore require a "new law"? Why not just go right for the law that was to be eternal anyway, namely the "law of Christ"? It seems to me that Christianity got the "first covenant" all wrong and went for something more to their liking. After all the "old law" states:

"He (Moses) took the Book of the Covenant and read it in earshot of the people, and they said, "Everything that HASHEM has said, we will do and we will obey!" Moses took the blood and threw it upon the people, and he said, "Behold the blood of the covenant that HAHSEM sealed with you concerning all these matters." - Exodus 24:7-8

"I will ratify My covenant between Me and You and between your offspring after you, throughout their generations, as an everlasting covenant, to be a G-d to you and to your offspring after you......" - Genesis 17:7

So did G-d change or did His creation?

The whole Hebrews verse comes from Jer. 31. I can only explain it how I see it, right or wrong.. When it says Yeshua came and fulfilled the law I see it as Him obeying the laws, when we obey the laws we are also fulfilling them too. He came and did exactly what (I believe) the tanakh tells us He would do thus fulfilling those prophecies.

The penalty of sin is death and death is something that we just can't get around but as with the priests who sacrificed animals and used the blood as sins offering and such it was something that had to be done yearly forever until the Messiah came. I believe Him to be the High Priest as you probably have heard many times. So the 'new covenant' is not so much as changing laws but providing a permante High Priest one that cannot die. And since I think that G-d knows everything, from the Aleph/Tav (I think thats right anyhow, I am just starting out to learn Hebrew so please bare with me) He knew that the temple on earth could always be destroyed, that men's minds can be corrupted and that His very laws could be also. I don't think that the Levitical priesthood has been abolished though and will be reinstated when the new temple is built.

See I don't think there's anything 'new' at all with the NT covenant except the providing the permante High Priest. I see so many people argue for the 'law of Christ' but cannot for the life of them tell me what it is, I usually get a bunch of scriptures and a lot of opinions that have no bases in any real laws. And frankly if people really believed Yeshua was G-d in the flesh and He does not change then there would be universal agreement that His laws still apply forever. I think it is true that early on those 'early church fathers' decided to distant themselves from the Jews of the day and splintered just as Judaism has done over the centuries. That splinter just continued and now its fractured itself into little bitty pieces each claiming truth. Well for its worth thats a bit of how I see it.

 

[johnd]

You know what...

believe it

don't believe it

whatever...

Look both ways at street intersections.

 

[ContraMundum]

If Jesus Christ demanded that the world should come to his calling and for the world to heed to his words then how can a Jew accept in anyway those words when they go against what we Jews know to be scripture?

Obviously you don't understand the words of Jesus. If you seemed remotely genuine I would invest hours into this....are you? If so, then fine- sit and listen- that's the only way to understand another's religion. If not....I'm sorry I can't help you.

 

[visionary]

Obviously you don't understand the words of Jesus. If you seemed remotely genuine I would invest hours into this....are you? If so, then fine- sit and listen- that's the only way to understand another's religion. If not....I'm sorry I can't help you.

which was given in response to [If Jesus Christ demanded that the world should come to his calling and for the world to heed to his words then how can a Jew accept in anyway those words when they go against what we Jews know to be scripture? ] from Tanakh...

Tanakh, bless your heart for asking. If you are willing, take the new testament and prayerful ask your Heavenly Father to walk you through what you read. Let Him be your teacher. Any answer you receive from any fellow man is biased. The pure truth comes from God. Might as well go to the source, and then at least you will know for sure. Because this world, including your world, has been so directed by situations and circumstances, fears, and loyalities, you will need to be willing to lay all those down before your Heavenly Father, trusting Him to give you what you really need, trusting Him to protect you, and guide you. You will have to get real as soul bare real as you can, so that nothing stops you or prevents you from seeing and hearing the truth as it really is. Desire the Mount Sinai experience with God.

 

[Heber]

I never said the "Old Law" will be superceded as I was simply stating that Christianity believes that it has been superceded by the Gospel. My view of grace is diferent then that of Christiantiy as I believe grace is to be found in fulfilling the laws as laws. Of course people will act upon the laws but some just do it out of tradition, not giving it a second thought, but to fulfill the commandments, all 613 of them, is grace by carrying out the will of G-d to ones best ability.

The point of the post you quoted was to simply re-state what Christianity believes about the law (the Tanakh, not the Gospel). I was showing how I read the text to mean that Jesus was saying that when he is killed then the law will "pass away" and hence the verse "all things have taken place". Me writting it that way was in no way to imply that I believe what the Gospel was saying.

I see what you mean now. Unfortunately your overview of Christianity is not quite a reflection of the real world out there. There are a growing number of believers in Yeshua who would happily walk with you through your experience of obeying the law, and learn from that (I have an Israeli Messianic Professor coming on Monday night to address just the issue of Torah and the Christian understanding of it). I can see what you mean by 'grace' - it is a word that clearly has more than one meaning! Grace, in Christian terms, is also what G_d pours out for us on those occasions when, try as we will, not to, we break one of his laws. This meaning of 'grace' is that he gives to us, quite freely and quite un-earned by us, forgiveness for failing to keep his law because Yeshua kept the Law (fulfilled its requirements) and that fulfilment is there for us to take on to 'cover', our sin in his eyes as and when we do t'shuvah (and only then - it is not an open offer nor just a heavenly 'rubber stamp' in your spiritual passport).

You mention that your understanding of the word 'grace' is that which enables you to keep the law. May I then ask what happens for those times when you break it? Your relationship with El Shaddai is broken because you have violated his sacred word - what then? Does he simply turn away from you (because he cannot be where sin is) or does he punish you (bringing to mind the exile as one example)- what is there in place that gets you back to being right with El Shaddai again?

 

[visionary]

I see what you mean now. Unfortunately your overview of Christianity is not quite a reflection of the real world out there. There are a growing number of believers in Yeshua who would happily walk with you through your experience of obey the law, and learn from that (I have an Israeli Messianic Professor coming on Monday night to address just the issue of Torah and the Christian understanding of it). I can see what you mean by 'grace' - it is a word that clearly has more than one meaning! Grace, in Christian terms, is also what G_d pours out for us on those occasions when, try as we will not to, we break one of his laws. This meaning of 'grace' is that he gives to us, quite freely and quite un-earned by us, forgiveness for failing to keep his law because Yeshua kept the Law (fulfilled its requirements) and that fulfilment is there for us to take on to 'cover, our sin as and when we do t'shuvah (and only then - it is not an open offer nor just a heavenly 'rubber stamp' in your spiritual passport.

You mention that your understanding of the word 'grace' is that which enables you to keep the law. May I then ask what happens for those times when you break it? Your relationship with El Shaddai is broken because you have violated his sacred word - what then? Does he simply turn away from you (because he cannot be where sin is) or does he punish you (bringing to mind the exile as one example)- what is there in place that gets you back to being right with El Shaddai again?

exactly, and even you Tanakh, trust God to fulfill the requirements made for paying the penalty for sin, since there is no temple for you to perform the laws required regarding that matter. So by the Grace of God we both go and hopefully to sin no more.

 

[Tanakh]

I see what you mean now. Unfortunately your overview of Christianity is not quite a reflection of the real world out there. There are a growing number of believers in Yeshua who would happily walk with you through your experience of obeying the law, and learn from that (I have an Israeli Messianic Professor coming on Monday night to address just the issue of Torah and the Christian understanding of it). I can see what you mean by 'grace' - it is a word that clearly has more than one meaning! Grace, in Christian terms, is also what G_d pours out for us on those occasions when, try as we will, not to, we break one of his laws. This meaning of 'grace' is that he gives to us, quite freely and quite un-earned by us, forgiveness for failing to keep his law because Yeshua kept the Law (fulfilled its requirements) and that fulfilment is there for us to take on to 'cover', our sin in his eyes as and when we do t'shuvah (and only then - it is not an open offer nor just a heavenly 'rubber stamp' in your spiritual passport).

You mention that your understanding of the word 'grace' is that which enables you to keep the law. May I then ask what happens for those times when you break it? Your relationship with El Shaddai is broken because you have violated his sacred word - what then? Does he simply turn away from you (because he cannot be where sin is) or does he punish you (bringing to mind the exile as one example)- what is there in place that gets you back to being right with El Shaddai again?

When one sins then G-d does indeed punish. However the punishment is designed to improve the sinner, unless of course the sin is so bad (mortal sin) that it merits the death penalty, such as murder for example.

"If a man strikes another with an iron instrument (or with any object) and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death. The avenger of blood may execute the murderer, putting him to death on sight." - Numbers 35:16

However in regards to general sin, or what Christianity calls "venial sin":

"When all these things which I have set before you, the blessings and the curses, are fulfilled in you, and from among whatever nations the L-rd, your G-d, may have dispersed you, you ponder them (the laws) in your heart: then, provided that you and your children return to the L-rd, your G-d, and heed His voice with all your heart and all your soul, just as I know command you, the L-rd, your G-d, will change your lot; and taking pity on you, He will again gather you from all the nations wherein He has scattered you. Though you may have been driven to the farthest corner of the world, even from there will He bring you back. The L-rd, your G-d, will then bring you into the land which your forefathers once occupied, that you too may occupy it, and He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your forefathers. The L-rd, your G-d, will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, that you may love the L-rd, your G-d, with all your heart and all your soul, and so may live. But all those curses the L-rd, your G-d, will assign to your enemies and the foes who persecuted you. You, however, must heed the L-rd's voice and carry out all his commandments which I now enjoin on you. Then the L-rd, your G-d, will increase in more than goodly measure the returns from all your labors, the fruit of your womb, the offspring of your livestock, and the produce of your soil; for the L-rd, your G-d, will again take delight in your prosperity, even as He took delight in your fathers', if only you heed the voice of the L-rd, your G-d, and keep His commandments and statutes that are written in this book of the law (the Torah), when you return to the L-rd, your G-d, with all your heart and all your soul." - Deuteronomy 30:1-10

Grace is to be found in both fulfilling the law and returning to it.

 

[Heber]

But you haven't answered my question...!

 

[visionary]

When one sins then G-d does indeed punish. However the punishment is designed to improve the sinner, unless of course the sin is so bad (mortal sin) that it merits the death penalty, such as murder for example.

"If a man strikes another with an iron instrument (or with any object) and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death. The avenger of blood may execute the murderer, putting him to death on sight." - Numbers 35:16

However in regards to general sin, or what Christianity calls "venial sin":

"When all these things which I have set before you, the blessings and the curses, are fulfilled in you, and from among whatever nations the L-rd, your G-d, may have dispersed you, you ponder them (the laws) in your heart: then, provided that you and your children return to the L-rd, your G-d, and heed His voice with all your heart and all your soul, just as I know command you, the L-rd, your G-d, will change your lot; and taking pity on you, He will again gather you from all the nations wherein He has scattered you. Though you may have been driven to the farthest corner of the world, even from there will He bring you back. The L-rd, your G-d, will then bring you into the land which your forefathers once occupied, that you too may occupy it, and He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your forefathers. The L-rd, your G-d, will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, that you may love the L-rd, your G-d, with all your heart and all your soul, and so may live. But all those curses the L-rd, your G-d, will assign to your enemies and the foes who persecuted you. You, however, must heed the L-rd's voice and carry out all his commandments which I now enjoin on you. Then the L-rd, your G-d, will increase in more than goodly measure the returns from all your labors, the fruit of your womb, the offspring of your livestock, and the produce of your soil; for the L-rd, your G-d, will again take delight in your prosperity, even as He took delight in your fathers', if only you heed the voice of the L-rd, your G-d, and keep His commandments and statutes that are written in this book of the law (the Torah), when you return to the L-rd, your G-d, with all your heart and all your soul." - Deuteronomy 30:1-10

Grace is to be found in both fulfilling the law and returning to it.

Venial sin.. not around here... technicalities don't work

can't tap the face of the rock and live.

 

[Heber]

However in regards to general sin, or what Christianity calls "venial sin":

There are no levels of sin! Sin is sin is sin - as Yeshua said, if you break one of his teachings you break them all. It is not which sin you commit that causes the problem with El Shaddai - it is simply the fact that you have sinned.

 

[Tanakh]

There are no levels of sin! Sin is sin is sin - as Yeshua said, if you break one of his teachings you break them all. It is not which sin you commit that causes the problem with El Shaddai - it is simply the fact that you have sinned.

I agree that sin is sin, however, I think we can all agree that there is a big difference between someone who's planned a murder on the sole basis that they wanted to kill versus someone who unintentionally broke a commandment, either because they were unaware that it was a commandment or because they did not take steps to ensure it was followed. I simply used the term general vs. mortal sin to show the gravity of murder, the example that I gave in the post. I do agree with you that sin, no matter what it may be, is an abomination to G-d.

 

[ContraMundum]

I agree that sin is sin, however, I think we can all agree that there is a big difference between someone who's planned a murder on the sole basis that they wanted to kill versus someone who unintentionally broke a commandment, either because they were unaware that it was a commandment or because they did not take steps to ensure it was followed. I simply used the term general vs. mortal sin to show the gravity of murder, the example that I gave in the post. I do agree with you that sin, no matter what it may be, is an abomination to G-d.

You are quite correct Tanakh. In Christianity not all sins lead to death (1 Jn 5:17 etc) but all sins are nonetheless serious and separate us from God. Only one sin is unforgivable. The church has for centuries been aware of variant gravities of sin. Different groups express it differently, but there are distinctions.

 

[Tishri1]

I think its the PriestHood that changed

and thats all.

I read all those chapters different I guess

The Letter to the Hebrews (sometimes called The Book of Hebrews) is attributed to the Apostle Paul, although some doubt that he wrote it, but it nonetheless is striking to me, a Jew, because it was written to converts from Judaism to Christianity, Messianic Jews if you will, and so my question is that many Christians will state that the "New Testament" is only a fulfillment of the "Old Testament" and yet the Gospels clearly state that the entire "old law" is made void by Jesus Christ:

"But he (Jesus) is worthy of more "glory" than Moses, as the founder of a house has more "honor" than the house itself." - Hebrews 3:3

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. But he finds fault with them and says:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the L-rd, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they did not stand by my covenant and I ignored them, says the L-rd. But this is the covenant I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the L-rd: I will put my laws in their minds and I will write them upon their hearts. I will be their G-d and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his fellow citizen and kinsman, saying, "Know the L-rd," for all shall know me, from least to greatest. For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more."

When he speaks of a "new" covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing." - Hebrews 8:7-13

And yet to say that the "first covenant" was not "faultless" implies that G-d screwed up and must therefore, because of the actions of His creation, create a "new covenant" for mankind (obviously logic would dictate mankind will screw this one up as well). Thus if G-d is all-knowing then why would he not have forseen the "old law" fall apart and therefore require a "new law"? Why not just go right for the law that was to be eternal anyway, namely the "law of Christ"? It seems to me that Christianity got the "first covenant" all wrong and went for something more to their liking. After all the "old law" states:

"He (Moses) took the Book of the Covenant and read it in earshot of the people, and they said, "Everything that HASHEM has said, we will do and we will obey!" Moses took the blood and threw it upon the people, and he said, "Behold the blood of the covenant that HAHSEM sealed with you concerning all these matters." - Exodus 24:7-8

"I will ratify My covenant between Me and You and between your offspring after you, throughout their generations, as an everlasting covenant, to be a G-d to you and to your offspring after you......" - Genesis 17:7

So did G-d change or did His creation?

 

[ContraMundum]

And yet to say that the "first covenant" was not "faultless" implies that G-d screwed up and must therefore, because of the actions of His creation, create a "new covenant" for mankind (obviously logic would dictate mankind will screw this one up as well). Thus if G-d is all-knowing then why would he not have forseen the "old law" fall apart and therefore require a "new law"?

I forgot to address this.

God did foresee all things. His plan was made in eternity, and it continues.

So did G-d change or did His creation?

God didn't change- but His plans for mankind appear (to us, from our earthly and mortal perspective) to be "changes". Covenants change. They are added to and taken away. That is the history of God, witnessed to in the Tanakh.

For example, in your religion you see yourself as forgiven for reasons quite different to those prescribed in the Mosaic covenant. Nothing gets killed. This is a development of Jewish theology. Theology is development, a portion at a time. The laws given to Adam were added to with Noah, and in turn added to again with Abraham, and again with Moses, and so forth. When God gave the people the laws around Yom Kippur, He told us how to do it His way. Go to shule today and it looks nothing like Yom Kippur, yet it is still called Yom Kippur, but clearly it isn't. Clearly much of it has been taken away by necessity, according to God's will. Just landing on (approximately) the same date as the authentic Yom Kippur does not make it so.

Also, modern Judaism has added many laws foreign and unforeseen to Moshe rabbeinu.

What is clear is that the Mosaic law can no longer be followed, yet men still need to be forgiven of their sins. God's plan was to lead mankind to His ultimate law and show us His love. Even Judaism states that the law would/will come to men differently at some point (the New Covenant etc). Judaism teaches us that the Jews would be the vessel that would usher in God's plan to be a light to the Gentiles. Christianity has clearly done that- there has been no religion coming from Israel that has done more to spread the news and truth about the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob than the Messianic (translated "Christian") religion. It has toppled pagan empires and made animists and pantheists into monotheists who now know and worship the God of Israel. Looking for the "Light to the Gentiles"...you've got it right here.

 

[Tanakh]

"In times past, G-d spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, He spoke to us through a son, whom He made heir to all things and through whom He created the universe, who is the refulgence us His glory, the very imprint of His being, and who sustains all things by His mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs." - Hebrews 1:1-4

It is interesting to note that in Genesis 1:26, G-d states, "Let us make Man in Our image, after Our likeness." If G-d is One then why would He say, "Let us make Man......"? The answer is that G-d is communicating with the ministering angels and so when the Book of Hebrews says that Jesus is "far superior to the angels" it seems rather strange that the angels whom helped create Man by debating it with G-d and deciding that Man should be created to then only have man claim more wisdom then they.

Any thoughts on this?

"Therefore, we must attend all the more to what we have heard, so that we may not be carried away. For if the word announced through angels proved firm, and every transgression and diobedience recieved its just recompense, how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? Announced origionally through the L-rd, it was confirmed for us by those who had heard. G-d added His testimony by signs, wonders, various acts of power, and distribution of the gifts of the holy spirit according to His will." - Hebrews 2:1-4

The verse seems to suggest that without the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that humanity will be fullly lost in sin and wither away until there is absolute chaos in the world. And if the message of Christ was first heard by the apostles and thus brought forth by them to the world then how are people 2000 years later supposed to be apostles to a creed with the message based off of a seperate scripture to be bound by both laws?

 

[ContraMundum]

"In times past, G-d spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, He spoke to us through a son, whom He made heir to all things and through whom He created the universe, who is the refulgence us His glory, the very imprint of His being, and who sustains all things by His mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs." - Hebrews 1:1-4

It is interesting to note that in Genesis 1:26, G-d states, "Let us make Man in Our image, after Our likeness." If G-d is One then why would He say, "Let us make Man......"? The answer is that G-d is communicating with the ministering angels and so when the Book of Hebrews says that Jesus is "far superior to the angels" it seems rather strange that the angels whom helped create Man by debating it with G-d and deciding that Man should be created to then only have man claim more wisdom then they.

The text in Genesis mentions nothing about angels. I understand your teachers read angels into it, but our writings tell us that the Spirit of God, and the Son of God- all existing from eternity, before time, space and creation- even of the angels- were present at creation. Thus, using the Christian paradigm, "echad" and "elohim" starts to make sense.

"Therefore, we must attend all the more to what we have heard, so that we may not be carried away. For if the word announced through angels proved firm, and every transgression and diobedience recieved its just recompense, how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? Announced origionally through the L-rd, it was confirmed for us by those who had heard. G-d added His testimony by signs, wonders, various acts of power, and distribution of the gifts of the holy spirit according to His will." - Hebrews 2:1-4

The verse seems to suggest that without the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that humanity will be fullly lost in sin and wither away until there is absolute chaos in the world. And if the message of Christ was first heard by the apostles and thus brought forth by them to the world then how are people 2000 years later supposed to be apostles to a creed with the message based off of a seperate scripture to be bound by both laws?

That question is a little muddy to me...could you ask it another way?

 

[Tanakh]

The text in Genesis mentions nothing about angels. I understand your teachers read angels into it, but our writings tell us that the Spirit of God, and the Son of God- all existing from eternity, before time, space and creation- even of the angels- were present at creation. Thus, using the Christian paradigm, "echad" and "elohim" starts to make sense.



That question is a little muddy to me...could you ask it another way?

Sorry for not making it more clear.

My question is that if Christians are supposed to be apostles to the Christian creed of salvation through Jesus then how are people 2000 years after the true or origional apostles supposed to make sense of the "New Testament" when Jews and Christians are more or less apposed to each others interpretation of the text? This is of course not to imply that the scritpures are not clear in and of themselves but rather is a question aimed at what Christianity expects of converts in viewing the Christian creed of the "law". How does Christianity reconcile both laws as being valid but only one law, the "new" one, as being the only true law to follow?