Hebrews 6 and 10, and salvation from the unpardonable sin?

[Carl Emerson]

Lets look at Hebrews 6 again...

I will comment between the verses as I have a different take...

1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits.

The Elect are not to question the basic foundations of the faith (including if they are saved or not) but to grow towards maturity

4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

This is a reference to the foolishness of the whole idea of questioning and revisiting the fact of ones salvation, re-baptisms and seeking more and more blessings through the laying on of hands, as it brings shame on the promises and the very Cross that secured it.

It seems also that the letter is addressed to the church within which are wheat and tares, and some among them never came to faith even after being in a sanctified fellowship and enjoying the benefits of God's presence without being fully committed and hence saved.

Verse 7 speaks of this - The land is the church enjoying the rain of God's blessings and presence but the tares grow there as well and don't come to fruition.

9Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.

There we have it - the elect have nothing to worry about and don't need to look back question and revisit their salvation.

11And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Full assurance of hope - that is the attitude of the Elect, also note the the Elect can be sluggish and miss out on blessing in this life, but this does not effect their salvation - they just have a less blessed life and less reward in the next. Never let anyone say that believers shouldn't have full assurance of salvation.

The Certainty of God’s Promise

13For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. 16For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.


Romans 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Let's stop the Hebrews 6 fearmongers once and for all...

 

[Bones49]

What you need to be aware of is that Hebrews 6 states:

Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

But how powerful is the cross?

What sins does it cover?

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

We see if Hebrews 9 that the cross covers a lifetime of sins, it is a righteous life given for a lifetime of sins.

We also see that "wandering from the faith" is covered by the cross:

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

We also see that GOd is "just" and "righteous" to forgive our sins if we come to confess it.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So we see the cross covers a lifetime of sins, the cross does not expire until we die. The person/s referenced in Hebrews 6 must have turned from Christ and died in their sins, that is the only way the cross would be unavailable.

Why do you assume that Hebrews 6 is referring to anyone? Did you read the context and think about it?
You need to start in Ch 5. The author is admonishing the Hebrews for their unwillingness or inability to grow in the faith. At the start of Ch 6 he says that he doesn't want to have to lay again the basic principles of the Gospel, and is confident that the Hebrews will move forward - if God permits. What the author seems to be doing in vs 4 - 8 is to remind the Hebrews what will happen to them if they refuse to continue to maturity - it would seem that in the author's mind remaining juvenile is not an option, one must mature or fall away. The implication is that if the Hebrews walk away from their faith, then the likely result is that they will never return, and will eventually go to destruction with the rest of the unbelievers. I would consider the reference to 'crucify again the son of God', as meaning they need to return to the Cross in repentance. This is not simply talking about committing a sin - as per 1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But this is a decision to walk away from the Christian faith in totality. Well that is how I see it anyway.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Hebrews 5 is relevant as some pointed it out and 6, so, this is a warning to true believers that once they have tasted all the forms or grace God gives, if they re-join the Pharisees, now that they say killing Jesus was the right thing to do, then they are rejecting Him to crucifixion in their hearts all over again, and there no more grace to turn them to repent again, because they rejected each kind. The sacred blood, the free gift of salvation, God's love... their hearts permanently hardened they have no future except into the fire, and they won't experience God's love anymore. Hebrews 10.

Their hearts like sails, the wind strong, the wind of the Spirit, but they are sluggish. They needed Hebrews 5-6 and 10. Just the Hebrews of the audience of Paul, were warned yet told that better things were expected for them. There are people today who have committed the eternal sin.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But this is a decision to walk away from the Christian faith in totality. Well that is how I see it anyway.

Consider the Word through Jeremiah...

Jer 32

40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

He spoke of a New Covenant to come, in which He would indwell believers and seal them to righteousness so it would be impossible for them to fall away.

 

[Bones49]

Consider the Word through Jeremiah...

Jer 32

40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

He spoke of a New Covenant to come, in which He would indwell believers and seal them to righteousness so it would be impossible for them to fall away.

ok. talking about Isrel whom God will bring back to their land from all the nations where they were scattered. Mybe it can be argued that this also applies to the church. but even so he is talking about a large group of people who on the whole will not turn from him, but doesnt mean that wach individual will not, far less cannot fall away.
yes peehaps your interpretation is correct, but there are amply scriptures which seem to say it is not, to prove yourself right you have to consider how else the scriptures thst seem to disagree with your position can be interpreted.

 

[Carl Emerson]

he is talking about a large group of people who on the whole will not turn from him, but doesnt mean that wach individual will not, far less cannot fall away.

Yes it does... The indwelling presence is individual.

Jer 32

40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Consider the Word through Jeremiah...

Jer 32

40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

He spoke of a New Covenant to come, in which He would indwell believers and seal them to righteousness so it would be impossible for them to fall away.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

and

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[Carl Emerson]

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

and

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Correct, but the audience was a mixture of the elect and the 'tares' - these warnings are not directed to the elect.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I would agree that on Earth we who are elect have a choice, to turn from grace and harden our hearts, to a point of no return. Temptation to fornicate if taken in, and acted out after tasting everything, and there is no return for them. We must be watchful and well fed on graces and knowledge! Hosea 4:6, My people perish for their lack of knowledge. Wise virgins have plenty of oil. Matthew 25

In many counselors their is surety being careful of happy go lucky Pollyannas. Proverbs 11:14-18.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would agree that on Earth we who are elect have a choice, to turn from grace and harden our hearts, to a point of no return. Temptation to fornicate if taken in, and acted out after tasting everything, and there is no return for them. We must be watchful and well fed on graces and knowledge! Hosea 4:6, My people perish for their lack of knowledge. Wise virgins have plenty of oil. Matthew 25

In many counselors their is surety being careful of happy go lucky Pollyannas. Proverbs 11:14-18.

IF I follow your reasoning, there must be more unforgivable sins than the unforgivable sin it'self.

The unforgiveable sin is unforgiveable - all else is forgivable.

And do the Elect have a choice really ??

When you became born again, did your not surrender to His Lordship and give Him rule over your life?

Did you not surrender your 'free will' to Him?

If you truly become born again you have given up all your 'rights' including so called 'free will'.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

IF I follow your reasoning, there must be more unforgivable sins than the unforgivable sin it'self.

The unforgiveable sin is unforgiveable - all else is forgivable.

And do the Elect have a choice really ??

When you became born again, did your not surrender to His Lordship and give Him rule over your life?

Did you not surrender your 'free will' to Him?

If you truly become born again you have given up all your 'rights' including so called 'free will'.

People have actually committed the unpardonable sin. To return to serious sin after tasting all of God's grace. If they would repent, they would be forgiven, the sacred blood would make them clean. But it is grace that enables repentance and they have hardened their hearts to all graces. They cannot repent.

Paul said, I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31, dying to self and surrender is a daily process that needs to be repeated after sleeping each day. The surrendered will must be chosen again and again or the old man comes back to life. In surrender comes the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22.

God does not override free will but it must be surrendered each day. Then the government of say my life, is on His shoulders.

And with that I am under His power and can be overwhelmed with holy laughter or quaking...

One needs knowledge and contact with God and some counsel to be on top of rejecting the Spirit for fornication or to join the Pharisees...

 

[Carl Emerson]

People have actually committed the unpardonable sin. To return to serious sin after tasting all of God's grace. If they would repent, they would be forgiven, the sacred blood would make them clean. But it is grace that enables repentance and they have hardened their hearts to all graces. They cannot repent.

God does not override free will but it must be surrendered each day. Then the government of say my life, is on His shoulders.

The folks you describe in your first sentence are not Elect.

Everyday we should pray "Thu will be done..." This is indeed and invitation to have His will override ours.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The folks you describe in your first sentence are not Elect.

Everyday we should pray "Thu will be done..." This is indeed and invitation to have His will override ours.

Only the elect can commit the eternal sin. It requires God's grace. God won't override our free will, maybe in the case of quaking? But He wants our free will handed to Him in heart not word, after we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit, then we can surrender and He is governing. I briefly started laughing once, I gave it to God in trust. Trust, give, surrender, die to self, live to God, a choice we make, sometimes with help. God is a gentlemen not a programmer, He wants our knowing choice. Not overriding us.

Anyone can be elect, even atheists, 1 Timothy 4:10 God the saviour of all especially those who believe. Some seeing the light NDE anecdotes come from non religious people, atheists and doctors... Some doctors are secular.

Little ones always see the light after dying. Somethings we choose and believe as we get older have negative results. Anyone can be elect.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Only the elect can commit the eternal sin.

Please explain...

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Please explain...

Only the people who have received all the graces of God and so have become elect, can forfeit that by wholly rejecting Christ.

Anyone can be elect, the little ones automatically are, as we grow older, something may cause a vice in us.

Election depends on receiving grace, needing in most cases a preacher and an open ear in those who listen. If someone screams during the service, which happens, it may distract them, or someone may tell them that if they commit, they must tithe, and no better or worse than the other people there, they may miss out.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

IF I follow your reasoning, there must be more unforgivable sins than the unforgivable sin it'self.

The unforgiveable sin is unforgiveable - all else is forgivable.

And do the Elect have a choice really ??

When you became born again, did your not surrender to His Lordship and give Him rule over your life?

Did you not surrender your 'free will' to Him?

If you truly become born again you have given up all your 'rights' including so called 'free will'.

I agree, if you're truly born again you will desire to change, want to change, and make the effort to change. It's NOT works: it's a behavior by faith, in the liberty to be FREE from sin, rather than to sin. He who sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
The unforgivable sin is unbelief. The Pharisees went so far as to say Jesus had an unclean spirit, even Beelzebub - and that is exactly when He warned about the unpardonable sin.
It's also way more than just "speaking a word" against the Holy Spirit. I did that before I was saved because I was a satanist at one point and wanted to sever any connection to God. However, I did this in ignorance, and the scripture was twisted by the devil. It's more when you know the Truth, as in Hebrews, and deliberately reject Christ by unbelief continually, and you renounce Him as something evil till you're dying day. There would be at some point a hardening, where in such case the person is condemned.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Only the people who have received all the graces of God and so have become elect, can forfeit that by wholly rejecting Christ.

Anyone can be elect, the little ones automatically are, as we grow older, something may cause a vice in us.

Election depends on receiving grace, needing in most cases a preacher and an open ear in those who listen. If someone screams during the service, which happens, it may distract them, or someone may tell them that if they commit, they must tithe, and no better or worse than the other people there, they may miss out.

I wonder if we are confusing definitions...

The Elect are called and Chosen. Their salvation is irreversible.

The Called are presented with the invitation to salvation but the seed of the gospel eventually dies.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

I wonder if we are confusing definitions...

The Elect are called and Chosen. Their salvation is irreversible.

The Called are presented with the invitation to salvation but the seed of the gospel eventually dies.

The language of Ephesians 1:11-14 does bear this out:

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Also, Matthew 22:8-14, which you eluded to. Here we see a prime example of someone trying to get in without putting on Christ and His righteousness, but by some other way. He's going to church, maybe he's trying to get to heaven by works, but he doesn't have the indwelling Spirit: He is not born again, and therefore does not have a wedding garment:

"The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I wonder if we are confusing definitions...

The Elect are called and Chosen. Their salvation is irreversible.

The Called are presented with the invitation to salvation but the seed of the gospel eventually dies.

Matthew 18:1-14 and Matthew 20:1-16 are about children, and the second passage, the first being last and the last being first, often times. And many are called, few are chosen, in the case of children, events take place as they grow older, and even going up to the times of being rewarded in the afterlife, some of them are rewarded and not chosen, at the end of life. As little ones the kingdom belongs to them, and if you receive one of them in Jesus' name you receive Jesus.

The called may or may not continue until being chosen. It depends on what they know and what they receive. Philippians 2:12-13. As children, the Kingdom belonged to them.

Lucifer was once perfect. He committed the earliest eternal sin. Those souls who died before the resurrection either in paradise or in dungeons, did not have the sacred blood of Jesus. And so there was no eternal sin until after then and those in both worlds had a new grace and were saved, those below, set free and given gifts.

I am not in favour of the Calvinist defintion of "elect". Being elect depends on circumstances and then hearing, believing and receiving grace, which can reverse the firsts and the lasts. It is not God's sovereign choice, it is up to us and our responding to choose God back. And continuing.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

By salvation from the unpardonable sin, I mean, responding with reverence to a threat, a blasphemer or a terrorist and praying and receiving grace to escape or endure, torment or pain, fear of death... Those addressed in Hebrews, lost land and their place in amidst the Jews. They could be lashed... the authorities claiming it was right to kill Jesus saying "Jesus was a blasphemer."

How grace effects us is determined by our response, a hardening or softening and cleaning of the heart.

We must ask for it, and we can enter His rest and grace leads to grace and the feeding of our faith for continuing trust and obedience leading to happiness. In times of happiness and perhaps plenty, there is another temptation to leave the fold.