Hebrews 6:4-6...help?

[mdith4him]

I read through Hebrews while ago, and there was this one passage that totally confused me. I've heard it's a much debated passagein scripture, so I was wondering what you guys' thoughts on it were. I talked to myself about it for nearly half an hour and just got frustrated! haha...so here's the passage:

Hebrews 6:4-6
"4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

So at first I was like, 'ok, whatever' Then I went back and reread it and that's when the debate with myself began. I started in v. 4. It says "those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift..." I assume that to mean they are Christians and have accepted salvation (the "heavenly gift"). It also says these people "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit." That means they have access to the power of the Spirit, right? So that has to be a believer because the H.S. doesn't help non-Christians. Then in v. 6 it says for those "enlightened" people who fall away from the faith, they can never gain repentance again. So I was thinking the person in vs. 4-5 being described was a Christian, a true-in-his-heart believer who, for some reason or another, decides to leave the faith and (for example) join a different religion. So that guy can never come back to Christ and essentially loses his salvation. This poses three questions in my mind:

1) Isn't salvation available to everyone?,
2) Does this dissident believer actually lose his salvation? and
3) Doesn't Christ denying someone salvation go against everything the rest of the Bible says about His love and forgiveness?

So I was confused. Then I realized that I had been talking to myself for half an hour and I felt kinda weird cuz I think I was getting kinda loud. So anywho, care to share any enlightening thoughts with me?

Thanks!!

~M-dith~

 

[Rebirth In Flames]

To use an extreme example for this passage, think of Lucifer. He tasted the heavenly blessings, he was enlightened, he shared in the Holy Spirit, etc. and then he fell away. Now it's impossible for him to be forgiven; he had his chance and his free will, and he chose his path. Jesus does forgive us and he does love us; but he gives us free will and the option to choose. Now, according to this passage this is referring to human beings and saying that it is possible to fall away from God if we choose to fall away. It does seem a bit harsh, but it's pretty blunt and straight forward isn't it? The life if holiness is no joke; we're on a spiritual battle-ground and we need to start taking it seriously. Many people try and justify ways around scripture that's as blunt as this in order that it may "tickle their ears" and thus be easier for them to comprehend and deal with it. There are consequences to our actions, we do get punished; that is why it's futile as good disciples of Jesus Christ that we do not wander too far away from the path. Satan is like a roaring lion waiting for people to wander from the path so that he may divour them. Stay on the path and you'll be fine; but it is very possible to wander from it and get devoured for all of eternity.

 

[In Christ Forever]

So I was thinking the person in vs. 4-5 being described was a Christian, a true-in-his-heart believer who, for some reason or another, decides to leave the faith and (for example) join a different religion. So that guy can never come back to Christ and essentially loses his salvation. This poses three questions in my mind:

1) Isn't salvation available to everyone?,
2) Does this dissident believer actually lose his salvation? and
3) Doesn't Christ denying someone salvation go against everything the rest of the Bible says about His love and forgiveness?

So I was confused. Then I realized that I had been talking to myself for half an hour and I felt kinda weird cuz I think I was getting kinda loud. So anywho, care to share any enlightening thoughts with me?

The book of hebrews is mainly addressing the old law convenant compared to the new law convenant. Dead works appear to relate to the law which could never take away sins and what was happening were jewish converts that claimed to believe in the faith of Jesus were being assailed by jewish non believers and being persecuted for their belief in Jesus and some were falling away from Christ and returning to the old law and denying Christ while boasting in God, and this appeared to be the blaspheme among the gentiles according to Paul and they were crucifying Christ all over again.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary [principles] of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame. 13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you." 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation [is] for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it [is] impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before [us.] 19 This [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence [behind] the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, [even] Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

1 thess 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they [did] from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up [the measure of] their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

romans 2: 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them)] 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. 17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I read through Hebrews while ago, and there was this one passage that totally confused me. I've heard it's a much debated passagein scripture, so I was wondering what you guys' thoughts on it were. I talked to myself about it for nearly half an hour and just got frustrated! haha...so here's the passage:

Hebrews 6:4-6
"4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

So at first I was like, 'ok, whatever' Then I went back and reread it and that's when the debate with myself began. I started in v. 4. It says "those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift..." I assume that to mean they are Christians and have accepted salvation (the "heavenly gift"). It also says these people "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit." That means they have access to the power of the Spirit, right? So that has to be a believer because the H.S. doesn't help non-Christians. Then in v. 6 it says for those "enlightened" people who fall away from the faith, they can never gain repentance again. So I was thinking the person in vs. 4-5 being described was a Christian, a true-in-his-heart believer who, for some reason or another, decides to leave the faith and (for example) join a different religion. So that guy can never come back to Christ and essentially loses his salvation. This poses three questions in my mind:

1) Isn't salvation available to everyone?,
2) Does this dissident believer actually lose his salvation? and
3) Doesn't Christ denying someone salvation go against everything the rest of the Bible says about His love and forgiveness?

So I was confused. Then I realized that I had been talking to myself for half an hour and I felt kinda weird cuz I think I was getting kinda loud. So anywho, care to share any enlightening thoughts with me?

Thanks!!

~M-dith~

Hi mdith4him,
I agree they are "saved" people. I have one question for you...

Can you show what they (the believers in Hebrews) would be renewed unto?

 

[FreeinChrist]

I read through Hebrews while ago, and there was this one passage that totally confused me. I've heard it's a much debated passagein scripture, so I was wondering what you guys' thoughts on it were. I talked to myself about it for nearly half an hour and just got frustrated! haha...so here's the passage:

Hebrews 6:4-6
"4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

So at first I was like, 'ok, whatever' Then I went back and reread it and that's when the debate with myself began. I started in v. 4. It says "those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift..." I assume that to mean they are Christians and have accepted salvation (the "heavenly gift"). It also says these people "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit." That means they have access to the power of the Spirit, right? So that has to be a believer because the H.S. doesn't help non-Christians. Then in v. 6 it says for those "enlightened" people who fall away from the faith, they can never gain repentance again. So I was thinking the person in vs. 4-5 being described was a Christian, a true-in-his-heart believer who, for some reason or another, decides to leave the faith and (for example) join a different religion. So that guy can never come back to Christ and essentially loses his salvation. This poses three questions in my mind:

1) Isn't salvation available to everyone?,
2) Does this dissident believer actually lose his salvation? and
3) Doesn't Christ denying someone salvation go against everything the rest of the Bible says about His love and forgiveness?

So I was confused. Then I realized that I had been talking to myself for half an hour and I felt kinda weird cuz I think I was getting kinda loud. So anywho, care to share any enlightening thoughts with me?

Thanks!!

~M-dith~

I don't beleive that they were saved, but that they heard the gospel (were enlightened), 'tasted the heavenly gift (initially responded), partook in the Holy Spirit (saw the gifts of the Holy Spirit in corporate worship) but rejected Christianity and went back to Judaism. By refusing the sacrifice of Christ, they were again crucifiying the Lord. There is no 'renewing to repentence' for there is no furthur sacrifice for sin - if they reject Christ, there is no hope for their salvation, no other method of salvation.


So, if they accept the sacrifice of Christ, they can be saved. Once saved, I do not believe it can be lost because it is God who does the saving and He knows what He is doing.

 

[Theophorus]

St. John Chrysostom, one of the greatest theologins who lived in the 4th century said it was the "laver" that was impossible to to do again.

An over simplification of his position is that the carnal minded babes he was addressing having fallen away could not continue to be rebaptized for it made a mockery of Christ's death, that when a person was baptized they crucified the old man, partaking in Christ's death and resurrection. Their legalistic and imature thinking being that they could just start over with a fresh "laver" and thereby putting Christ to open shame, or again, mockery.

He says this is the "unto repentance" or as he states it "by repentance".

He later says it is still possible to repent if you have fallen even deep into wickedness, however he later warns of continuing down that path. when looking at the passages that follow, he adds this caveat; that those that produce thorns are nigh unto cursing, but not cursed, just near to it at which he rejoices saying, "how great the consolation of this word" and emphasizes the hope we have in Christ, unless we continue to produce thorns to the very end. (versus 7-8)

containing comments on versus 1-6
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240209.htm

containing versus 7-8
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240210.htm