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Hebrew roots movement

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torahgrandma

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I was reading a thread over at MJ about how the Messianic movement was going to correct all of the error that has been taught by the church for the last two thousand years.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4894684-can-we-undo-2000-years-of-wrong-teaching.html

I admit that I had to smile, because I have watched the Hebrew roots/Messianic movement generate so much false teaching in the last ten years, that it would be a monumental task in itself just to correct that. I am not referring to the Messianic Jewish movement, although some of this false teaching have crept into there as well. Many have fled the church, only to embrace a different kind of error in the Hebrew roots movement.

What does the forum think?
 

torahgrandma

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Here are a few from a list of Hebrew roots myths from another forum:

1) Jesus is zeus or some female pagan deity.

2) Jesus is an agent of God, but not God in the flesh.

3) Jesus quoted from the talmud.

4) God is a pagan name.

5) YAHshua is the "true" name of Jesus.

6) Jesus followed the oral law.


7) Jesus quoted the oral law.

8) The "613" were given to Moses. (along with the Torah)

9) None of the apostles spoke any Greek. (because it was a pagan language)

10) Paul sacrificed animals at the temple.

11) The book of Hebrews is full of error, therefore not really canon.


12) The NT was originally written in Hebrew/Aramaic.

13)The bride of Messiah will only be those who are Torah obedient and/or have the correct "Hebraic" Name for God and Jesus.

14) Jesus and Paul used PaRDeS.


15) Paul practiced kabbalah.

16) Jesus quoted Hillel and Shammai.

17) Jesus wore a tallit with the fringe knots representing the 613 commands.


18) King James intentionally altered a Biblical name (Jakob) so that he could place his name (James) into the scriptures.

19) Jesus celebrated the passover seder as it is celebrated today.

21) It is a renewed covenant, not new.

22) The New Covenant is not here yet.

23) Hebrew will be the Holy language of Heaven.

24) It is not possible to curse in Hebrew.

25) It is impossible to understand the Bible unless one uses a "Hebraic" mindset.
 
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dcyates

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Here are a few from a list of Hebrew roots myths from another forum:

1) Jesus is zeus or some female pagan deity.

2) Jesus is an agent of God, but not God in the flesh.

3) Jesus quoted from the talmud.

4) God is a pagan name.

5) YAHshua is the "true" name of Jesus.

6) Jesus followed the oral law.

7) Jesus quoted the oral law.

8) The "613" were given to Moses. (along with the Torah)

9) None of the apostles spoke any Greek. (because it was a pagan language)

10) Paul sacrificed animals at the temple.

11) The book of Hebrews is full of error, therefore not really canon.

12) The NT was originally written in Hebrew/Aramaic.

13)The bride of Messiah will only be those who are Torah obedient and/or have the correct "Hebraic" Name for God and Jesus.

14) Jesus and Paul used PaRDeS.

15) Paul practiced kabbalah.

16) Jesus quoted Hillel and Shammai.

17) Jesus wore a tallit with the fringe knots representing the 613 commands.

18) King James intentionally altered a Biblical name (Jakob) so that he could place his name (James) into the scriptures.

19) Jesus celebrated the passover seder as it is celebrated today.

21) It is a renewed covenant, not new.

22) The New Covenant is not here yet.

23) Hebrew will be the Holy language of Heaven.

24) It is not possible to curse in Hebrew.

25) It is impossible to understand the Bible unless one uses a "Hebraic" mindset.
For my part, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that this is a list of the false teachings that adherents of the Hebrew Roots movement wish to correct? Or are you suggesting that this is a list of the false teachings espoused by those of the Hebrew Roots movement themselves?
 
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Robskiwarrior

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There are some great ones in there lol Although there are a few correct ones.

Yahshua / Yahushua was Jesus' real name -
transliterated it should actually be Joshua. Thats fact.

And Yakob / Jacob should actually be the name for the book of James, as thats what its called in the earlyest texts - what ever reason you want to give for the change is speculation, but it is very interesting that a King called James happend to be the person behind an english copy to do so.

Jesus did celebrate passover - he also celebrated the other feasts as you can see from the commentary in the Scriptures. In relation to how passover its celebrated today - dunno. lol

The rest is from what I can see is not really all there.

and as a disclaimer - im not a Hebrew roots movement thingy person :)

- Rob
 
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UBERROGO

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Here are a few from a list of Hebrew roots myths from another forum:

1) Jesus is zeus or some female pagan deity.

2) Jesus is an agent of God, but not God in the flesh.

3) Jesus quoted from the talmud.

4) God is a pagan name.

5) YAHshua is the "true" name of Jesus.

6) Jesus followed the oral law.


7) Jesus quoted the oral law.

8) The "613" were given to Moses. (along with the Torah)

9) None of the apostles spoke any Greek. (because it was a pagan language)

10) Paul sacrificed animals at the temple.

11) The book of Hebrews is full of error, therefore not really canon.


12) The NT was originally written in Hebrew/Aramaic.

13)The bride of Messiah will only be those who are Torah obedient and/or have the correct "Hebraic" Name for God and Jesus.

14) Jesus and Paul used PaRDeS.


15) Paul practiced kabbalah.

16) Jesus quoted Hillel and Shammai.

17) Jesus wore a tallit with the fringe knots representing the 613 commands.


18) King James intentionally altered a Biblical name (Jakob) so that he could place his name (James) into the scriptures.

19) Jesus celebrated the passover seder as it is celebrated today.

21) It is a renewed covenant, not new.

22) The New Covenant is not here yet.

23) Hebrew will be the Holy language of Heaven.

24) It is not possible to curse in Hebrew.

25) It is impossible to understand the Bible unless one uses a "Hebraic" mindset.

Are these things that the Hebrew roots think are right doctrine or wrong doctrine?
 
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Smilebomb

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Here are a few from a list of Hebrew roots myths from another forum:

1) Jesus is zeus or some female pagan deity.

2) Jesus is an agent of God, but not God in the flesh.

3) Jesus quoted from the talmud.

4) God is a pagan name.

5) YAHshua is the "true" name of Jesus.

6) Jesus followed the oral law.


7) Jesus quoted the oral law.

8) The "613" were given to Moses. (along with the Torah)

9) None of the apostles spoke any Greek. (because it was a pagan language)

10) Paul sacrificed animals at the temple.

11) The book of Hebrews is full of error, therefore not really canon.


12) The NT was originally written in Hebrew/Aramaic.

13)The bride of Messiah will only be those who are Torah obedient and/or have the correct "Hebraic" Name for God and Jesus.

14) Jesus and Paul used PaRDeS.


15) Paul practiced kabbalah.

16) Jesus quoted Hillel and Shammai.

17) Jesus wore a tallit with the fringe knots representing the 613 commands.


18) King James intentionally altered a Biblical name (Jakob) so that he could place his name (James) into the scriptures.

19) Jesus celebrated the passover seder as it is celebrated today.

21) It is a renewed covenant, not new.

22) The New Covenant is not here yet.

23) Hebrew will be the Holy language of Heaven.

24) It is not possible to curse in Hebrew.

25) It is impossible to understand the Bible unless one uses a "Hebraic" mindset.

Wow...

I don't know where you get your information from, but this is all crap. Certainly has nothing to do with the Messianic movement. While there might be some people who Messianic and teach these things (don't know, just guessing, but probably right) they don't have anything to do with the Messianic movement. Much in the same way that Jehovah's Witnesses really shouldn't be used to sum up Christianity.

As for the specifics...

Number 24, I've heard that there are no curse words, or swear words in Hebrew. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've at least definitely heard that one.

Number 25, well that's not true. However, there is a great deal to be missed if you don't study the "Hebraic roots" of Christianity as a whole: Yeshua, the Bible context, the patriarchs, and the Hebrew of the Old Testament.

Peace

P.S. - there is a great thread about Hebraic roots going on in the apologetics forum that discusses the wealth of information one learns from studying Hebraic roots.
 
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Charles YTK

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I would say that this list is intersting, but I see that most of it is taken out of context. I have been a Messainic since 1975 and I might agree with two or three items on this list if they were not so vague. The majority of what is listed I not believe and have not encountered in Messainc fellowships.

Individuals can say whatever they want and can say some pretty crazy things. That is not exclusive to the the MJ forum I assure you. But these things in no way represnt all or even a significant portion of MJ believers.

There is no official blanket statement of faith for the movement as far as I know and there is no spokesman who can make an official statement as to what MJ's believe as a group. Perhaps the closest one might come is that MJ's believe that Salvation comes only through faith in God's Mercy provided through Messiah Yeshua and that as children of God we have a desire to live accoding to his instructions given in both testaments of the holy word.

For myself I would say that I try to live according to the instructions of God as provided within the New Covenant, written on the heart and expounded upon by Yeshua, the disciples or taught by the Prophets who spoke of the Kingdom of God that would come under Messiahs reign. My choice is to live according to the teachings of Messiah Yeshua which are the correct and full application of the principles laid down by Moshe long before. I am not subject to the specifics of the Torah that do not apply to me or which apply only to the Levites, the Temple system or the administration of the nation of Israel in their land.
 
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ContraMundum

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This list is ridiculous because it presents the Hebrew Roots movement as some kind of doctrinally united and organised group, which it is far from.

Teachings and teachers within theological trends should be judged on their individual merits, not by making rash generalisations.

What is the "Hebrew Roots" movement anyway, really?

What about the sound teachers who have sought to find out the truth about the Bible by studying the Hebrew roots of Christian doctrine? Are they to be labelled among the whackos?

..and some of the points of contention in the list would need a lot of qualification before one could discuss them. I think the list is probably a little exaggerated.
 
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torahgrandma

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There are some great ones in there lol Although there are a few correct ones.

Yahshua / Yahushua was Jesus' real name -
transliterated it should actually be Joshua. Thats fact.

Actually, it is not factual. Here is an article that discusses this error:

http://www.seekgod.ca/htwhatsinaname.htm

And Yakob / Jacob should actually be the name for the book of James, as thats what its called in the earlyest texts - what ever reason you want to give for the change is speculation, but it is very interesting that a King called James happend to be the person behind an english copy to do so.
The book was titled James in translations that were done almost two hundred years before King James lived.
 
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torahgrandma

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Are these things that the Hebrew roots think are right doctrine or wrong doctrine?

These concepts are taught as fact, and can be read on many so called Messianic and Hebrew roots websites, and in the publications of the authors. I have actually set in Messianic Jewish synagogues, and heard some of these fallicies discussed as fact. This occurs because people join these "cyber" congregations where they absorb this stuff, and then they go to a real MJ synagogue to fellowship, and are anxious to show everyone what "facts" they know.
 
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torahgrandma

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Many in the Hebrew roots movement teach that Jesus went to the temple to "celebrate" Hanukkah. Here is something that was sent to me outlining some of the background of the Maccabbee family:

Judah Maccabee’s father, Mathathias murdered a man on the altar

1Mac 2:23
Now when he had left speaking these words, there came one of
the Jews in the sight of all to sacrifice on the altar which was
at Modin, according to the king's commandment.
1Mac 2:24
Which thing when Mattathias saw, he was inflamed with zeal,
and his reins trembled, neither could he forbear to shew his
anger according to judgment: wherefore he ran, and slew him upon
the altar.

Mattathais desecrated the Sabbath by warring.

1Mac 2:32
They pursued after them a great number, and having overtaken
them, they camped against them, and made war against them on the
sabbath day.
1Mac 2:33
And they said unto them, Let that which ye have done hitherto
suffice; come forth, and do according to the commandment of the
king, and ye shall live.
1Mac 2:34
But they said, We will not come forth, neither will we do the
king's commandment, to profane the sabbath day.
1Mac 2:35
So then they gave them the battle with all speed.
1Mac 2:36
Howbeit they answered them not, neither cast they a stone at
them, nor stopped the places where they lay hid;
1Mac 2:37
But said, Let us die all in our innocency: heaven and earth
will testify for us, that ye put us to death wrongfully.
1Mac 2:38
So they rose up against them in battle on the sabbath, and
they slew them, with their wives and children and their cattle,
to the number of a thousand people.
1Mac 2:39
Now when Mattathias and his friends understood hereof, they
mourned for them right sore.
1Mac 2:40
And one of them said to another, If we all do as our brethren
have done, and fight not for our lives and laws against the
heathen, they will now quickly root us out of the earth.
1Mac 2:41
At that time therefore they decreed, saying, Whosoever shall
come to make battle with us on the sabbath day, we will fight
against him; neither will we die all, as our brethren that were
murdered im the secret places.



Judah was a warrior – many escapades of his bloody battles are recounted in 1 & 2 Maccabees.

1Mac 3:1
Then his son Judas, called Maccabeus, rose up in his stead.
1Mac 3:2
And all his brethren helped him, and so did all they that
held with his father, and they fought with cheerfulness the
battle of Israel.
1Mac 3:3
So he gat his people great honour, and put on a breastplate
as a giant, and girt his warlike harness about him, and he made
battles, protecting the host with his sword.
1Mac 3:4
In his acts he was like a lion, and like a lion's whelp
roaring for his prey.
1Mac 3:5
For He pursued the wicked, and sought them out, and burnt up
those that vexed his people.
1Mac 3:6
Wherefore the wicked shrunk for fear of him, and all the
workers of iniquity were troubled, because salvation prospered
in his hand.
1Mac 3:7

Judah took it upon himself to cleanse and re dedicate the Temple, which he had no jurisdiction over. He was a man of war and God had told David that a man of war had unclean hands and therefore could not build His Holy Temple.

1 Chron 28:3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou [hast been] a man of war, and hast shed blood.

When Hezekiah had the Temple rededicated he properly called for the Levitical priesthood to cleanse the Temple:

2 Chron 29:5 And said unto them, Hear me, ye Levites, sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the LORD God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy [place].

Judah implemented priests of his choosing. They tore down the altar and rebuilt it according to what was right in their own eyes.


1Mac 4:42
So he chose priests of blameless conversation, such as had
pleasure in the law:
1Mac 4:43
Who cleansed the sanctuary, and bare out the defiled stones
into an unclean place.
1Mac 4:44
And when as they consulted what to do with the altar of burnt
offerings, which was profaned;
1Mac 4:45
They thought it best to pull it down, lest it should be a
reproach to them, because the heathen had defiled it: wherefore
they pulled it down,
1Mac 4:46
And laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a
convenient place, until there should come a prophet to shew what
should be done with them.
1Mac 4:47
Then they took whole stones according to the law, and built a
new altar according to the former;
1Mac 4:48
And made up the sanctuary, and the things that were within
the temple, and hallowed the courts.
1Mac 4:49
They made also new holy vessels, and into the temple they
brought the candlestick, and the altar of burnt offerings, and
of incense, and the table.
1Mac 4:50
And upon the altar they burned incense, and the lamps that
were upon the candlestick they lighted, that they might give
light in the temple.
1Mac 4:51
Furthermore they set the loaves upon the table, and spread
out the veils, and finished all the works which they had begun
to make.
1Mac 4:52
Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which
is called the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and eighth
year, they rose up betimes in the morning,
1Mac 4:53
And offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar
of burnt offerings, which they had made.
1Mac 4:54
Look, at what time and what day the heathen had profaned it,
even in that was it dedicated with songs, and citherns, and
harps, and cymbals.
1Mac 4:57
They decked also the forefront of the temple with crowns of
gold, and with shields; and the gates and the chambers they
renewed, and hanged doors upon them.


This sounds all too familiar, for when David sought to move the Ark of the Covenant without consulting God’s instructions, tragedy struck and Uzza was killed [1 Chron 13:10]

The end of Judah and his brothers was death by the sword, each one killed in a bloody battle.

Judahalso instructed that Sukkot [Feast of Tabernacles] be observed on chislev 25. He had no authority to so, rendering that feast of Lord unclean as well. Note that Hanukkah was originally known as “the Feast of Fire” [based on a legend concerning Nehemiah – 1 Mac 1:19-32].


1 Mac 4:59
Moreover Judas and his brethren with the whole congregation of Israel ordained, that the days of the dedication of the altar should be kept in their season from year to year by the space of eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, with mirth and gladness.

2 Mac 1:9 We are now reminding you to celebrate the feast of Booths in the month of Chislev.
18 We shall be celebrating the purification of the temple on the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev, so we thought it right to inform you, that you too may celebrate the feast of Booths and of the fire that appeared when Nehemiah, the rebuilder of the temple and the altar, offered sacrifices.

2 Mac 10
5 On the anniversary of the day on which the temple had been profaned by the Gentiles, that is, the twenty-fifth of the same month Chislev, the purification of the temple took place.
6 The Jews celebrated joyfully for eight days as on the feast of Booths, remembering how, a little while before, they had spent the feast of Booths living like wild animals in caves on the mountains.
7 Carrying rods entwined with leaves, green branches and palms, they sang hymns of grateful praise to him who had brought about the purification of his own Place.
8 By public edict and decree they prescribed that the whole Jewish nation should celebrate these days every year.


Judah and his brothers, one after another placed themselves in the position of High Priest. Simon not only elevated himself as High Priest, but made himself king, thereby replacing the kingship of David which was instituted by God.

1Mac 14:30
(For after that Jonathan, having gathered his nation
together, and been their high priest, was added to his people,
1Mac 14:35
The people therefore sang the acts of Simon, and unto what
glory he thought to bring his nation, made him their governor
and chief priest, because he had done all these things, and for
the justice and faith which he kept to his nation, and for that
he sought by all means to exalt his people.
1Mac 14:41
Also that the Jews and priests were well pleased that Simon
should be their governor and high priest for ever, until there
should arise a faithful prophet;
1Mac 14:42
Moreover that he should be their captain, and should take
charge of the sanctuary, to set them over their works, and over
the country, and over the armour, and over the fortresses, that,
I say, he should take charge of the sanctuary;
1Mac 14:43
Beside this, that he should be obeyed of every man, and that
all the writings in the country should be made in his name, and
that he should be clothed in purple, and wear gold:

1Mac 16:9
At that time was Judas John's brother wounded; but John still
followed after them, until he came to Cedron, which Cendebeus
had built.
1Mac 16:23
As concerning the rest of the acts of John, and his wars, and
worthy deeds which he did, and the building of the walls which
he made, and his doings,
1Mac 16:24
Behold, these are written in the chronicles of his
priesthood, from the time he was made high priest after his
father.
 
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ContraMundum

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Um, what's your point grannie? They were human? They were soldiers? (Hey- didn't Moses murder someone too, and David?) In other words, what have the personal sins and foibles of these men have to do with the Feast of Dedication? By such logic, one would discount the Torah because of Moses's sins, one would discard the Psalms because of David's and one would throw away much of the NT because of Paul's.

Incidentaly, you do realise your trying to prove something you think to be "unscriptural" by using something you consider "unscriptural", and thus, you have no real chance of proving anything with anything you yourself would accept as authorative. Just thought I would point out the irony.
 
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torahgrandma

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Um, what's your point grannie? They were human? They were soldiers? (Hey- didn't Moses murder someone too, and David?) In other words, what have the personal sins and foibles of these men have to do with the Feast of Dedication? By such logic, one would discount the Torah because of Moses's sins, one would discard the Psalms because of David's and one would throw away much of the NT because of Paul's.

Incidentaly, you do realise your trying to prove something you think to be "unscriptural" by using something you consider "unscriptural", and thus, you have no real chance of proving anything with anything you yourself would accept as authorative. Just thought I would point out the irony.
Those are not my words. They were just thrown in there as a fire starter so to speak.
 
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Those are not my words. They were just thrown in there as a fire starter so to speak.

OK...thanks for clarifying that.

But....what is your point?

Really....why all the anti-Jewish foundations threads?

What do you believe about this? Do you reject the whole idea behind the "Hebrew Roots" movement or just some of the things they say or is there another way you think this should be taught and dealt with?

I mean, so what if Jesus kept Hanukkah? 99% of Christians don't. Is there some kind of problem here that will end Christendom that we should know about?
 
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torahgrandma

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Did Jesus celebrate Chanukkah?

Would Jesus be concerned about the temple knowing that:

The king (Herod) was appointed by Rome, an Edomite brought in through forced conversion and not a valid King by Torah standards.

Deu 17:15 You shall surely set him king over you, whom the LORD your God shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set king over you: you may not set a stranger over you, who is not your brother.

The priesthood and the scribes/teachers were not valid according to Torah, or at the very least questionable. John the Baptist (a Levite) knew. He declined to serve in the priesthood (his father was Zacharias Luke 1:5), and instead chose to prepare the way in the wilderness, and then offered them stern correction when the pharisees and saducees appeared there where he was Baptizing people for the REMISSION OF SINS (unheard of).

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jesus also knew:

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not according to their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost places at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But you be not called Rabbi: for one is your Teacher, even Christ; and all you are brothers.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you travel on sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

The house of prayer had become a den of thieves.

Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you have made it a den of thieves.

Because He had come through the tribe of Judah as prophesied, the Levitic line would now be broken, because of Him now becoming the Great High Priest. (Cohen Ha Gadol)

Heb 4:14 Then having a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession.

That after His crucifixion, the veil would be torn by an unseen hand (God) and that the acceptance of sacrifice would now cease, even according to Jewish writings.

Mat 27:51 And, behold! The veil of the temple was torn into two from above as far as below. And the earth quaked, and the rocks were sheared!

That the destruction of the temple was to be fullfilled in the near future. (70 ce)

Mat 24:2 But Jesus said to them, Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, There will not at all be left one stone on a stone which in no way will not be thrown down.

Not only the temple, but the parts of city as well:

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Jesus made this statement:

Mat 12:6 But I say to you, One greater than the temple is here.

It should be noted that Jesus was on Solomons porch, a place where gentiles congregated (outer court).The Temple built by Solomon did not have a court of the Gentiles. The great court/porch referred to in 2 Chronicles was for the Israelites to worship God, and surrounded the inner court. This is not the same porch that is mentioned in John 10.

When Jesus walked Solomon's Porch as written in John 10, He was not there to celebrate the Feast of Dedication, but was walking in the court of the Gentiles that was built by Herod which was also called "Solomon's Porch". It was built so that non-Jews [Greeks and other international visitors] could have a view of the Temple without defiling the Temple proper, which had warning signs of imminent death upon entering by any non-Jewish person. Solomon's Porch was also where the money changers were located, as well as the animals and birds that were sold for sacrifices. These were the tables that Jesus overthrew.

Was Jesus celebrating with the same Pharisees and Sadducees and other who were plotting to kill Him when He was there as it is written?



John 10
22 And the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus was walking in the temple, in Solomon's Porch.
24 Then the Jews encircled Him, and said to Him, Until when do You lift up our soul? If You are the Christ, tell us publicly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you did not believe. The works which I do in the name of My Father, these bear witness about Me.
26 But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of My Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are One!
31 Then again the Jews took up stones, that they might stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, I showed you many good works from My Father. For which work of them do you stone Me?
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Has it not been written in your Law, "I said, you are gods"?
35 If He called those gods with whom the Word of God was, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am Son of God?
37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me.
38 But if I do, even if you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may perceive and may believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.
39 Then again they sought to seize Him. And He went forth from their hand.
40 And He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John was at first baptizing and remained there.

According to the Scriptural account, He went to the temple to set the record straight. He never even went to where the Jews congregate, as the Pharisees and Sadducees sought to kill him, and then again to seize Him, and then He left.

And then there is this passage and the statement that Jesus made before He went to the temple:

John 4
20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where it is necessary to worship.
21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me that an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him.
24 God is a spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Does anyone her believe that Jesus had a chanukkiah (nine branch) which was devised by men, and not commanded by God (seven branch menorah). The miracle of the oil is merely a fable. Just ask any rabbi.
 
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torahgrandma

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OK...thanks for clarifying that.

But....what is your point?

Really....why all the anti-Jewish foundations threads?

What do you believe about this? Do you reject the whole idea behind the "Hebrew Roots" movement or just some of the things they say or is there another way you think this should be taught and dealt with?

I mean, so what if Jesus kept Hanukkah? 99% of Christians don't. Is there some kind of problem here that will end Christendom that we should know about?

If the Hebrew roots teachers are going to try and guilt people into keeping Hannukah because "Jesus" did, then that claim needs to be examined according to Scripture to see if it is so. This is my only standard.
 
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jgonz

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If the Hebrew roots teachers are going to try and guilt people into keeping Hannukah because "Jesus" did, then that claim needs to be examined according to Scripture to see if it is so. This is my only standard.
I have Never seen anyone "guilted" into keeping Hanukkah. That's, well, ridiculous. I suppose it may happen in random congregations, but as a whole? No way. I agree with the other poster~ why all the anti-Jewish foundation threads?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Christ clearly celebrated the Jewish festivals, including Channukah. All of John 9 takes place in the context of him going to Jerusalem to celebrate the Festival of Lights.

Also, in regards to the list in post #2, Jesus did quote from the Talmud/oral law (3, 7) and Hillel (16), his real name was Y'shua, the 613 mitzvot are simply extrapolated from the legal codes in the Torah (8), Paul probably did sacrifice at the temple, especially before his conversion (10), Jesus, as a rabbi, probably did wear a prayer shawl with the tallitim (17), Jesus probably did celebrate the Passover seder in a manner similar to today (19), and it is truly impossible to understand the Scriptures if one does not approach them with their Hebraic context in mind (25). It is also partially true that 'New Covenant' has connotations of renewed... through traditional Christian orthodoxy understands this as the Abrahamic covenant, not the Mosaic.

Moreover, I have never heard Messianic Jews claim that Jesus is a pagan female diety (1), that God is a pagan name (4), that Paul practiced kabbalah (15- especially odd since rabbinic Judaism, out of which mishnaic Messianics spring, and kabbalah don't have a friendly history), and that it is not possible to curse in Hebrew (24- trust me, my Messianic Israeli friend taught me to curse in Hebrew...).

That said...

I have encountered Messianics (not all) who wrongly claim that Jesus is a translation based on Zeus (1), that Jesus was an agent of God and not God in the flesh (2), that Hebrews is full of error and therefore not canon (11), that the New Testament was written in Hebrew or Aramaic (12), that the true bride of Christ are Torah-observant and confined to practitioners of Hebrew Christianity (13), that the New Covenant has not arrived and will postponed until the Messianic Age/Millennial Kingdom (22- exactly as dispensationalists believe, might I add), and that Hebrew is the holy language of heaven (24).

It is the emphasis on Torah-observance (13) and the rejection of the present reality of the New Covenant and the Messianic Age/Millennial Kingdom (22) that I find particurally eggregious about Messianic Judaism- the reason I left the movement. I can't even touch on the blasphemy denying that Christ was God in the flesh...

Christ has come and fulfilled Israel's vocation to be a blessing to the world in his own person. In doing so, the cultural laws have been aborgated, because those laws that formerly served as national demarcation lines to identify the people of God no longer serve any purpose. Cultural symbols like circumcision, shabbat, and such that identified the righteous (those in the covenant) are irrelevant in the new order, because we are made righteous (justified = made righteous in Greek), that is, part of the covenant, by faith in Jesus Christ, and identified as such by that faith- not Jewish cultural symbols.

Moreover, in fulfilling ethic Israel's vocation to be a blessing to the world in his own person, Christ has forever accomplished what the Jewish festivals sought to commemorate and continue. Two of the most central Mosaic festivals- Passover and Yom Kippur- are clearly interpreted by the New Testament as becoming finally actualized in the person of Christ. The events of eschatological salvation (Passover) and atonement (Yom Kippur) take place in the person of Christ. And without a temple in Jerusalem, the rabbinic model of their commemoration is a farce. The only way a person can actually celebrate these temple-pilgrimage feasts is by participating in the person of Christ, most truly found in Holy Communion.

I am not entirely opposed to the celebration of Jewish cultural symbols and feasts- Passover, Yom Kippur, and Shabbat are all quite beautiful things. I continue to hold the Shabbat apart from my campus' messianic community. What I find most terrible is that they are celebrated to the exclusion of Sunday morning worship, where the body of Christ has gathered since the apostolic age to celebrate the dawn of the new creation in Word and Sacrament. Messianic Judaism divides the body of Christ by discouraging participation in the church's historic liturgical action, where we find the true culmination of eschatological salvation (Passover), atonement (Yom Kippur), and rest (Shabbat). It favors the shadows and types over the reality of the Antitype- Christ himself in his body and blood.
 
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torahgrandma

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I have Never seen anyone "guilted" into keeping Hanukkah. That's, well, ridiculous.

Really? so you have never heard the argument that Christmas is pagan, and therefore people need to do what Jesus did? I have heard it countless times.

I agree with the other poster~ why all the anti-Jewish foundation threads?
The question should not be whether I am anti Jewish (which I am not).

A better question would be why are all of these people, many of them non-Jews practicing these things without checking the Scriptures to see if it is so.

The standard for believers should be, if it goes against Christ then immediately avoid it at all cost, if it doesn't go against Him, then check the Scriptures to see if it is so.
 
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torahgrandma

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A few of these are easily answered, and since there are good resources out there, I am not going to re invent the "wheel":

1) Jesus is zeus or some female pagan deity.

5) YAHshua is the "true" name of Jesus.

9) None of the apostles spoke any Greek. (because it was a pagan language)

http://www.seekgod.ca/htwhatsinaname.htm


4) God is a pagan name.

http://www.seekgod.ca/htname.htm




 
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