Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[ToBeLoved]

That isn't a very kind thing to say. I have been a Christian with Jesus as my Lord for over 20 years, and if he is your Lord, that makes us family. We need to act like it! Strife between brethren is something God HATES! (see Prov. 6:16-19)

That said, I asked for a verse, one verse... just one.... can you provide a verse that says the Law is currently written in your heart NOW? Yes or no... and if yes, provide the VERSE.

I stated Romans 2.

 

[Ken Rank]

It was not meant to be an insult. I am only saying that I am not going to spoon feed scripture into this entire conversation. I would only like you to reference the scriputre for yourself, maybe I didn't word that well.

I have been... I have cited Jer. 31:31-34 (Heb. 8:8-11) about 4 times now TO YOU... and if you won't go and read what it says, I can't help that. But my words were not mine... I was just repeating the prophesy. God will write His law in our hearts AND WHEN HE DOES we will no longer need to teach because all will know the LORD.

Do all know the LORD? No... do we still need to teach or do you shut down Sunday School? Obviously we still need to teach which means the work is not done.

 

[Ken Rank]

I stated Romans 2.

That is a chapter... please copy and paste a verse that says the law is currently on your heart. There has to be one, you made the statement. This is easy, go to Google, put in "Romans 2," and when you click on the link that has the whole chapter, find the verse, highlight it, right click and click "copy" and then come back and right click and click "paste" and then "post reply." Thanks!

 

[Steeno7]

You have just called the bible nonsense!

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: ; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts. (34) No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

It says God will put His law on their hearts and then NEXT IT SAYS.... "no more shall every man TEACH his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'know the LORD," for they all shall know me."

So, do ALL know the LORD? The answer is clearly "No." If the answer is no, the work is not done because the work is tied to all knowing the Lord.

No, I am saying your notion that His laws have yet to be written on our hearts and that the new covenant has yet to be fully enacted is nonsense.

Nobody has to teach me to know the Lord, I know Him. Better yet, I am known by Him.

 

[Ken Rank]

Romans 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Is it this one?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have been... I have cited Jer. 31:31-34 (Heb. 8:8-11) about 4 times now TO YOU... and if you won't go and read what it says, I can't help that. But my words were not mine... I was just repeating the prophesy. God will write His law in our hearts AND WHEN HE DOES we will no longer need to teach because all will know the LORD.

Do all know the LORD? No... do we still need to teach or do you shut down Sunday School? Obviously we still need to teach which means the work is not done.

I gave you the scripture twice. I can do no more than to answer your questions.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

And? It just shows even more that Jesus had all the information and still chose the direction He did for us with the New Covenant. And since He ONLY did the perfect will of the Father, we know that He has lead us in the right direction.

Jesus did the perfect will of the Father. The Holy Spirit only confirms Jesus.

Jesus did NOT change directions. His plan was in play from the beginning of time. It never changed.

 

[Ken Rank]

No, I am saying your notion that the His laws have yet to be written on our hearts and that the new covenant has yet to be fully enacted is nonsense.

Then you please also, copy and paste the verse that shows the law is on your heart now. If you believe this, surely there is a verse that supports your belief. Please, for the sake of good discussion... copy and paste the verse. Thanks!

 

[Rev Rafael]

Part of the incredible confusion that can easily result when trying to evaluate a movement, a Bible study or a teacher that hails that they are "Hebrew Roots" is that the term itself is VERY generic, encompassing and misleading. It can mean different things to different people, and decidedly unscrupulous people and false teachers use this vague and fluid term to their self-serving advantage.

Reexamining and even choosing to emphasize a Messianic perspective in one's faith in which the Hebrew aspects of ancient Christian faith are a focus is perfectly legitimate and up to the believer - Jew or Gentile - to embrace. I personally don't, but I see nothing in Scripture saying you can't draw a New Covenant parallel to Old Covenant customs, traditions and feasts to draw edification from.

The problem is that the old and primal, deadly error of Judaizing - the attempt to mingle faith in Christ with any kind of actual keeping of the Law of Moses relating to purification and sanctification by personal piety - is what is kept alive and well in those groups for whom the term "Hebrew Roots" has taken a very dogmatic and authoritarian tone. And there are PLENTY of those out there. They are all sects unto themselves and all hammer home in some subtle or direct manner that it is their interpretation of a Hebraic lifestyle that exclusively is the closest to "the truth." Their message often polarizes around recovery of "lost truth" that the Gentile Church supposedly is ignorant of (and gain a whole lot of traction with their claims that as a result, the Body of Christ has lost its ability to walk with God "properly", unless, of course you built tents in your backyard once a year, call "G-D" by His real name Yaohushua, etc.). When they go in those directions, outright and cultic manipulation is only a heart beat behind.

The Sacred Name Movement is a major component of the erroneous side of those who call themselves involved with "Hebrew Roots." One Messianic pastor could have easily been speaking of this subculture of error and said it well when he wrote:

>>But people other than yourself who consider themselves to be part of this so-called Sacred Name Movement or are very adamant and overzealous about this subject are likely lone-rangers, and do not attend a recognized fellowship or congregation. These people are therefore without accountability in the Body of Messiah, and do not share your Messianic vision of seeing the Jewish people come to know their Jewish Messiah while retaining and regaining an authentic Jewish lifestyle. Their religion is self-seeking and does not edify the whole Body of Believers.<<

The other aspects of the subcultures that arose around the Hebrew Roots concept can involve anything from liturgical dance, whether to eat pork, keep a Sabbath, etc. are things that can be taken to an extreme in the same vein by anyone.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Can we please distringuish between the Jewish race and the Jewish religion. I fill like these two things are thrown together intermittenly and often and it is most confusing.

What difference does it make? In my opinion, NONE.

 

[Ken Rank]

I gave you the scripture twice. I can do no more than to answer your questions.

So you don't have a verse? Thanks... just save me the time in the future and say "no." If there is a verse that says the law is in your heart now... and you send me to Romans 2 which doesn't have a verse that says that, why can't you just tell me which verse says it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Romans 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Is it this one?

No.

Romans 2:14-15
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,"

 

[ToBeLoved]

So you don't have a verse? Thanks... just save me the time in the future and say "no." If there is a verse that says the law is in your heart now... and you send me to Romans 2 which doesn't have a verse that says that, why can't you just tell me which verse says it?

Excuse me, you are being rude. If I do not reply to your liking within 10 minutes it is because I have said no?

 

[Steeno7]

Then you please also, copy and paste the verse that shows the law is on your heart now. If you believe this, surely there is a verse that supports your belief. Please, for the sake of good discussion... copy and paste the verse. Thanks!

Funny. Why don't you just look at that whole passage from Jeremiah that you consistently pluck out of its context?

 

[Messy]

You're just showing you don't understand what we are saying. We are NOT SAYING God cares if somebody is Jewish or not... NOT SAYING that! All that is being said is that, in the first century, most were Jewish and the believers still went to synagogue on Sabbath... the book of Acts says this! We don't need to be Jewish... but the faith as practiced and was understood in the first century BY Yeshua and those who followed him.... LOOKED more Jewish IN PRACTICE than not. That is from the bible, not from man!

Isn't that just what Paul said was his goal that he hadn't attained yet, be like Him and know Him totally without looking through a mirror, but still he also said he died with Christ and didn't live anymore and John said to the baby's that they knew Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
...

It is completely on topic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I never heard anyone try to go against Col 2:14, with that reason before, have you? I doubt it, that was something I never heard anyone say before, that it can't be the law, because they did not nail the tablets to the cross.

I can't recall an incident myself but I am sure it's been said by somebody somewhere before.

 

[MoreCoffee]

"Christianity" is a Greek term that applies to people who claim to follow Yeshua.
...

The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26) not so long after saint Stephen was murdered at the instigation of the Sanhedrin (Acts 6:12-15; 7:54-60). The Jewish authorities could hardly have created a worse example and so they gained a bad reputation for themselves.

 

[Netzari777]

That is an interesting position. Let me remind you that most Christians believe that the bible (in it's entirety) is the inspired Word of God. Most Christians indeed have read and studied the Old Testament in detail. To put forward a premise that we do not understand or study the first 70% of the bible is quite off base and is not at all accurate.

To make such assumptions is indeed quite presumptuous and shows that you understand Christianity much less than you think you do.

Such error in judgement of another's belief makes it hard to continue to hold a conversation with you or others who are under the same presumptions about millions of people devoted to God and Jesus Christ.

It is quite a stretch to say "most Christians" have read and studied the Old Testament in detail. If that were true, they would know that any prophet who said not to keep the Commandments should be stoned to death. Yet, they insist that Jesus did just that.

If it were true, they would know that erecting and decorating a tree in honor of their God is strictly forbidden. Yet, most do.

If it were true, they would know that the Sabbath is a sign of acknowledging that YHWH is the Creator. Yet, almost none observe it.

If it were true, they would know that all the feasts of YHWH are HIS feasts, and that they outline the works of the Messiah. Yet, most refer to them as "Jewish," which they are not.

If it were true, they would know that YHWH does not change, and that his covenants are everlasting. Most assert that he has changed and that his covenants have ended.

If it were true, they would realize that all strangers who accepted the Elohim of Israel were expected to observe the same laws as the children of Israel.

Yeshua said. "Follow me." If He were sinless, then He was perfectly Torah observant. Following Him would be following His example of keeping the Commandments. 1 John 3:4, Matthew 5:19

 

[Netzari777]

The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26) not so long after saint Stephen was murdered at the instigation of the Sanhedrin (Acts 6:12-15; 7:54-60). The Jewish authorities could hardly have created a worse example and so they gained a bad reputation for themselves.

To begin, they were called Christians in Greek. In Hebrew, they were Netzarim. What modern Christianity has become is a far cry from what it was in the first century.