Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[jiminpa]

I am wondering if maybe some of the impetus for "Torah observant christianity" has come, at least in part, from the split of the Worldwide Church of God that Herbert W Armstrong started back in the early 20th century and that split not too long after his death (of old age) in 1986. His religion taught seventh day sabbath observance, keeping the ancient Israelite feasts, and various other things that have become a catch cry among the "Torah observant" movement. Maybe some of the churches advocating "Torah observance" are connected in some way, either through pastors or core members, to the Herbert W Armstrong religion?

Or maybe we just read our Bibles.

 

[jiminpa]

Messiah has come already and will come again. Perhaps your post meant to speak of the coming again promised in holy scripture? (John 14:3)

Messiah is still here in the very active form of His Spirit, (the Holy Spirit) who is both distinct and inseperable from Him.

 

[jiminpa]

I see that your post relies on the oft repeated myth of Constantine changing the Law of God and other things too. What is the basis for your post's fanciful claim and can you document it from credible sources?

Not a myth. The myth is that the followers of constantine's religion are somehow the orthodoxy of the true God.

 

[jiminpa]

I didn't say anything about Adam and Eve. Do you think they spoke Latin? LOL

Come on now, everyone knows they spoke King James, just like Jesus and the disciples.

 

[Ken Rank]

Lawlessness?

That is what is says, the Greek is anomia which literally is "outside of" or "without" ... law. It isn't speaking of civil law because the concerns of the Kingdom are not what happens within the confines of a secular government.

Have a great weekend.
Ken

 

[Steeno7]

That has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
For the first 10 to 15 years after the resurrection, virtually ALL of the followers of the Messiah were Jews.
Paul's first missionary journey did not happen before 40CE. Jews did not make a habit of interacting with non-Jews, especially, the more religious. (Acts 10:28)
Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism are not the same thing. However, most of the earliest members of the way would have been practitioners of one or the other. By definition, that would make them a sect. That sect grew. On Shavu'ot it grew by 3,000.

The people gathered there:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

You don't seem to understand the difference between the religion of Judaism and a person being ethnically a Jew.

 

[Steeno7]

...for the most part, yes.

Christianity has ignored the first 70% of the Bible. The first 70% is necessary to understand the last 30%.
You can't start watching a play at Act III and know what is going on.

Christianity teaches the doctrine of the Nicolaitans and the doctrine of Balaam. (Revelation, chapter 2)
If Jesus hates them, it would be a good idea to know what they are. Until you do, you will not see the error.

Thanks for verifying what many of us have been saying about HRM.

 

[Steeno7]

Messiah is still here in the very active form of His Spirit, (the Holy Spirit) who is both distinct and inseperable from Him.

Yes. Jesus has not left us alone.

 

[Ken Rank]

You don't seem to understand the difference between the religion of Judaism and a person being ethnically a Jew.

He does understand... it just isn't an easy concept to convey when we have 2000 years of looking at a certain people through a particular lens. He is saying that Judaism WITHOUT rabbinic/Pharisaical influence is pure... it is what was given at Sinai, it is simply God's people walking according to God's instructions. Once man begins to chime in and pass decrees and create fences around commandments, SOME things are still in order and some things are not. Yeshua stood against the things that were not, he was NOT against all things within Judaism. If you think that, respectfully, you're wrong. We can show him doing things that appear in the Talmud and not in the bible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thanks for verifying what many of us have been saying about HRM.

I would also like to add that there is a Messianic Judaism section of this forum. Even though we are not allowed to participate (because it is a safe-house, as this forum is) you can get an understanding of their beliefs and see much for yourself which areas of the bible that they have 'difficulty' with and the extra-biblical sources that are part of their belief systems.

For the Christian, it opens ones eyes to the other books and teachings that are blended into their beliefs as well as the very real Jewish customs that are adhered to whether by birth or by the ones that feel grafted in.

 

[Ken Rank]

By fulfilling the Law Jesus brings to full fruition all that the Law pointed to pictorially and custodially. The externality of conformity to the Law's demands is displaced and replaced by the internality of the presence of Jesus Himself, "the law written in our hearts".

Agreed, the only problem is, the law isn't written on your heart, yet. If it were you couldn't sin, if it were there would be no need to teach, if it were all would know YHWH. But all don't know YHWH, there is still a need to teach, and you can sin. That is why Paul (not me, Paul) called what we do have in 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 an EARNEST, a down payment.... which by definition means, "there is more to come." The more to come is the completion of the law on our hearts... a work that has begun but is by FAR nor completed yet. So you are looking inside for something that isn't fully there, yet.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would also like to add that there is a Messianic Judaism section of this forum. Even though we are not allowed to participate (because it is a safe-house, as this forum is) you can get an understanding of their beliefs and see much for yourself which areas of the bible that they have 'difficulty' with and the extra-biblical sources that are part of their belief systems.

For the Christian, it opens ones eyes to the other books and teachings that are blended into their beliefs as well as the very real Jewish customs that are adhered to whether by birth or by the ones that feel grafted in, not as a gentile as we percieve it, but in a different sense.

 

[Steeno7]

He does understand... it just isn't an easy concept to convey when we have 2000 years of looking at a certain people through a particular lens. He is saying that Judaism WITHOUT rabbinic/Pharisaical influence is pure... it is what was given at Sinai, it is simply God's people walking according to God's instructions. Once man begins to chime in and pass decrees and create fences around commandments, SOME things are still in order and some things are not. Yeshua stood against the things that were not, he was NOT against all things within Judaism. If you think that, respectfully, you're wrong. We can show him doing things that appear in the Talmud and not in the bible.

No, he doesn't. If he did he wouldn't keep thinking of the ethnic Jews who came out of Judaism as still being a part of it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Agreed, the only problem is, the law isn't written on your heart, yet. If it were you couldn't sin, if it were there would be no need to teach, if it were all would know YHWH. But all don't know YHWH, there is still a need to teach, and you can sin. That is why Paul (not me, Paul) called what we do have in 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 an EARNEST, a down payment.... which by definition means, "there is more to come." The more to come is the completion of the law on our hearts... a work that has begun but is by FAR nor completed yet. So you are looking inside for something that isn't fully there, yet.

It is a well known fact through reading the Word that ones sin nature and the ability to sin has not been removed in any way.

Our down payment to our inheritance is the Holy Spirit. That is our guarantee of our inheritance in Christ.

The Word being written on our hearts has already happened at salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

He does understand... it just isn't an easy concept to convey when we have 2000 years of looking at a certain people through a particular lens. He is saying that Judaism WITHOUT rabbinic/Pharisaical influence is pure... it is what was given at Sinai, it is simply God's people walking according to God's instructions. Once man begins to chime in and pass decrees and create fences around commandments, SOME things are still in order and some things are not. Yeshua stood against the things that were not, he was NOT against all things within Judaism. If you think that, respectfully, you're wrong. We can show him doing things that appear in the Talmud and not in the bible.

That is a MAJOR problem with the teaching. It is the reliance on extra-biblical sources (ie.. books) and the oral understanding.

That is why many do not understand Christian teaching, because we do not base our faith on these other sources. The Talmud is not part of the bible as you have rightfully told us.

 

[Steeno7]

Agreed, the only problem is, the law isn't written on your heart, yet.

Do not assume that what is true for you is true for me. That the law isn't yet written on your heart is a problem for you, not me.

 

[Ken Rank]

No, he doesn't. If he did he wouldn't keep thinking of the ethnic Jews who came out of Judaism as still being a part of it.

The point is, for the first decade almost ALL of the "Christians" were Jews. And the faith remained predominately Jewish until 134AD when most of the remaining Jewish believers left the area when Bar Khokba was falsely named Messiah by Rabbi Akiva in an effort to rally the Jews against the Romans in what was their "last stand." Then, after that time, the faith quickly became majority Greek and whether you realize it now or not... Greek philosophy became to permeate the doctrinal view. But, that is a long study. Be well.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, he doesn't. If he did he wouldn't keep thinking of the ethnic Jews who came out of Judaism as still being a part of it.

Exactly! Peter is a wonderful example of this. After receiving visions from the Lord, Peter realized that God was not worried in the New Covenant as to whether certain meats were considered clean or unclean. Peter grew in his understanding of what Jesus had really done under the New Covenant and how it had moved away from traditional Judaism.

 

[Ken Rank]

Do not assume that what is true for you is true for me. That the law isn't yet written on your heart is a problem for you, not me.

It is the same for all.... if GOD SAID that when the law is written on the heart that there will no longer be a need to teach because all will know HIM.... and at this time not all know Him and there is still a need to teach... then that requirement is not met. And that has nothing to do with you, me, or anyone else. The fact remains, if not all know the Lord and there is still a need to teach... the work isn't done in ANYONE alive today!

 

[Ken Rank]

Exactly! Peter is a wonderful example of this. After receiving visions from the Lord, Peter realized that God was not worried in the New Covenant as to whether certain meets were considered clean or unclean. Peter grew in his understanding of what Jesus had really done under the New Covenant and how it had moved away from traditional Judaism.

You're just showing you don't understand what we are saying. We are NOT SAYING God cares if somebody is Jewish or not... NOT SAYING that! All that is being said is that, in the first century, most were Jewish and the believers still went to synagogue on Sabbath... the book of Acts says this! We don't need to be Jewish... but the faith as practiced and was understood in the first century BY Yeshua and those who followed him.... LOOKED more Jewish IN PRACTICE than not. That is from the bible, not from man!