Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[SpiritPsalmist]

You are being deliberately evasive. We all believe that, there is nothing there unique to HRM. Lets cut to the chase. "That God has not changed, that He's the same yesterday, today, and forever", refers to His unchanging nature. God is perfect in Himself and does not change because He has no need to change. What it does not mean is that God is limited to acting as He has always acted in the past. God does not change in who He is, but He certainly can and does change His modus operandi.

The Cross changed everything. Read Hebrews. It is all about the new and better things that God has brought into being through the Cross.

I am not being evasive. I answered the question the way I see it. If you don't like my answer then MOVE ON. If you too believe what I said, then you're arguing over nothing.

 

[Ken Rank]

"That God has not changed, that He's the same yesterday, today, and forever", refers to His unchanging nature. God is perfect in Himself and does not change because He has no need to change. What it does not mean is that God is limited to acting as He has always acted in the past. God does not change in who He is, but He certainly can and does change His modus operandi.

The context here is not talking about his nature... but about things He previously stated.

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

 

[Steeno7]

They're the same laws, they are just transferred from stone to heart.

Then why do you look to the stone, instead of to your heart?

 

[Ken Rank]

Then why do you look to the stone, instead of to your heart?

You're asking somebody else the same question but the answer will be the same. The prophecy that deals with the new covenant has as a sign of the covenant the law written on the mind and heart. But it ALSO SAYS that when this all happens, there will "no longer be a need to teach every man his brother, because all will know YHWH." But we do still need to teach and all don't know the Lord... so, the work is not complete.

So, we pick up our BIBLES ("Stone" is a metaphoric term for the physically written Word) and study. Are you suggesting that you can go by what your HEART says over Scripture? No... so you don't even believe what you are trying to teach.

 

[Steeno7]

They did not come out of Judaism. The book of Acts proves that...plus everything Paul wrote. People really do miss most of what they are reading in scripture. Sad.

What the Book of Acts shows is the historical transition from thinking of Christianity as a sect of the religion of Judaism to what it is; the new and Living way, of the new covenant, in the newness of life together with Christ. Acts shows the progressive revelation by the Holy Spirit of what it now meant to be new covenant Christians.

 

[Steeno7]

The context here is not talking about his nature... but about things He previously stated.

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

The context? The context IS the nature of God. Not the imposing of manmade limitations upon God, just to make a belief system work.

 

[Steeno7]

You're asking somebody else the same question but the answer will be the same. The prophecy that deals with the new covenant has as a sign of the covenant the law written on the mind and heart. But it ALSO SAYS that when this all happens, there will "no longer be a need to teach every man his brother, because all will know YHWH." But we do still need to teach and all don't know the Lord... so, the work is not complete.

So, we pick up our BIBLES ("Stone" is a metaphoric term for the physically written Word) and study. Are you suggesting that you can go by what your HEART says over Scripture? No... so you don't even believe what you are trying to teach.

It has already happened. We Christians do ALL know God.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

What the Book of Acts shows is the historical transition from thinking of Christianity as a sect of the religion of Judaism to what it is; the new and Living way, of the new covenant, in the newness of life together with Christ. It is the progressive revelation by the Holy Spirit of what it now meant to be new covenant Christians.

I disagree.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It has already happened. We Christians do ALL know God.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

Matt 5:19 "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven".

 

[eyupmiduk]

What's wrong with the Greek "face"?

I guess Paul wasn't actually so sold on the Gentile mindset. As he said on Ephesians 4:17-19 (NIV UK)

"So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more."

I would say that there is a definite difference between the Greek/Gentile mindset and the Hebraic. The Jews' whole culture was focussed on the things of God, even of they did distort it. The Gentile Christians had to learn a relationship with God from scratch so Paul had to guide them into it. The Jews had to learn their new standing with God but it was far less removed from their cultural background, but they would have had to unlearn a lot. It's like Jew and Gentile meet join the middle, and both have to move from where they are.

 

[Steeno7]

I guess Paul wasn't actually so sold on the Gentile mindset. As he said on Ephesians 4:17-19 (NIV UK)

"So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more."

I would say that there is a definite difference between the Greek/Gentile mindset and the Hebraic. The Jews' whole culture was focussed on the things of God, even of they did distort it. The Gentile Christians had to learn a relationship with God from scratch so Paul had to guide them into it. The Jews had to learn their new standing with God but it was far less removed from their cultural background, but they would have had to unlearn a lot. It's like Jew and Gentile meet join the middle, and both have to move from where they are.

I will say the same thing to you as I said to Ken Rank, you fail to delineate the difference between language and culture, and erroneously equate the Greek language with the Greek culture. You will never "get" NT realities by reverting to a Hebrew way of thinking. ALL of the NT writers were writing from within the context of the new covenant, and it can only be understood in that context.

 

[Steeno7]

For those seeking the truth about the Hebrew Roots Movement, this piece by Marshall Beeber, who is a Hebrew Christian, is spot on;

In Messianic congregations in the USA and abroad, doctrinal error due to explicit Torah observance appears to be wide spread. One must ask; Is it that hard to determine error from correct doctrine? What initially appeared to be a clear-cut issue of historical inaccuracy and miss-interpretation of Scripture twenty years ago, today appears to be a mute point among most Messianic brethren. Why so? Some of this lack of interest in historical and biblical accuracy is due to the human tendency to accept only the interpretation of scripture that fits one's doctrinal stand, no matter how absurd it may be. The other tendency is to believe false doctrine simply because it has not been rejected yet by its constituency. In either case, the reasons for accepting such doctrine are weak indeed.

In the 1980s some Messianic Jewish teachers came up with the idea that they could reshape Messianic believers perception of the "Gospel of Grace" and "Torah Observance" by simply re-inventing the persona of the Apostle Paul into "Torah Observant "Rav Shaul", all accepting of modern Messianic Jewish thought. In developing a deceptive historical portrait of Paul that would accept Torah Observant legalism, these Messianic Jewish teachers had to take an approach that would disregard the accurate history of Paul in his evolution from "Saul of Tarsus" persecutor of the Church in Israel and the Diaspora, to the "Apostle Paul", church founder, teacher and evangelist to both Jew and Gentile alike. They would have to sell to their flock the idea that "Rav Shaul" remained Torah observant, even while ministering to the Gentiles in the Greco/Roman provinces of Asia Minor. They also had to assert that the proselytes of Rav Shaul were Torah observant. The task of selling this "spin" was simple for most of the devoted believers within the Messianic Jewish movement, but much less so for those educated in Church history and New Covenant teachings. Today, most Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have accepted Anti-Pauline doctrine unknowingly by accepting a distorted historical portrait of Paul.

As previously mentioned, most Torah Observant Messianic believers today don't seem to be alarmed by the claim that their doctrine is filled with historic inaccuracies.

Erroneous motivations underlie most Torah Observant Messianic Jewish believer's acceptance of either the "Rav Shaul" or "Heretic Paul" historical scenarios. If you read between the lines in some of their statements, you will find that Torah Observant Messianic believers who know their history only give "lip service" supporting "Rav Shaul", and are actually Anti-Paul and consider his teachings heretical. In the USA, most Anti-Pauline Messianic Jewish believers hide behind the "Rav Shaul' history nonsense. In Israel though, most Anti-Paul MJs do not hide their sentiments concerning their opposition to Pauline doctrine. Most Messianic Jews that support the Rav Shaul or Heretic Paul historical scenario, do so for the sake of what they perceive to be a necessity. They truly believe that only by holding to an erroneous viewpoint that supports obligatory Torah Observance will they successfully evangelize the Jewish people. This concept adopts a "Social Darwinist" form of self deception which comes right out of David Stern's book, "Messianic Jewish Manifesto". Social Darwinists justify promoting the "big lie" if it serves to promote the continuity of their social cause. It may have been a 'Freudian slip" when Stern used the term "manifesto" in his revolutionary book. Stern's use of Marx missed the Biblical mark!

- See more at: http://www.messianicliterary.com/

 

[ToBeLoved]

That is different from what Paul says in Romans and Hebrews. Don't just read snippets read the whole thing together. Then only thing Paul refers to as new, over and over and over again, is there is a New High Priest. We are free from the law of sin and death. We are not free from the law that says "do not murder", we are not free from the law that says "do not lie", etc.. We are not saved by keeping the law but Yeshua DID say "IF you love Me you WILL keep my commandments".

I think Jesus covered all of the Law when He stated that to Love God with all your hearts, minds and soul and love your neighbor as yourself COVERED ALL of the Law.

I think I got what Jesus said. Thanks anyway.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Then why do you look to the stone, instead of to your heart?

Oh that's a cute little quip...but incorrect. Are you saying I'm not saved?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I think Jesus covered all of the Law when He stated that to Love God with all your hearts, minds and soul and love your neighbor as yourself COVERED ALL of the Law.

I think I got what Jesus said. Thanks anyway.

That is correct, however, those TWO encompassed all the others. Dividing the 10 commandments in half one half is in relation to God and the other is in relation to your neighbor. If we love God, we will do all the things that He has asked us to toward Him. If we love our neighbor we will do all the things toward our neighbor that God has asked us to. IOW if we love God, we will keep the Sabbath, we will have no other Gods before Him, etc.. If we love our neighbor we will not murder, we will not dishonor our parents, etc.. Eight commandments do not just disappear just because Yeshua bundled them down to two.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The more one sees about Hebrew Roots the more it shows itself to be in error.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Acts 21:20 in English says, "Many thousands of Jews believed and remained zealous for the Torah." However, "many thousands" is the word Murias, it is the word for 10,000 and it is in PLURAL form... which means a minimum of 20,000. The population of Jerusalem at that time was around 80,000 and 25% believed Yeshua was messiah AND remained keeping the Torah. The common dispensational teaching is that the Jews rejected him... some did, not all, by FAR. So in the first century the faith was Jewish, it believed on him AND kept the Torah. That answer a Revelation verse that for some seems out of place. It says, "They have the testimony of Yeshua AND keep the commandments." Just like the Jews in the first century.

Jesus Himself said that the Jews rejected Him. He came to His own and His own d

You were gentiles in the flesh but you are not now. You were an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel, but you are now a fellow citizen. That is what Paul shared in Ephesians 2.

Messiah's comments about not being sent BUT to the lost sheep means he went to the lost sheep. When he commissioned the 12 he said, DON'T go to the pagans (gentiles) but rather go to the lost sheep of Israel. His mission, he said, was to them... and the mission of the 12 was to them.

Peace to you.
Ken

Yes. And Jesus said that He came to His own and that His own rejected Him.

So, how does all this mesh back with Hebrew roots? It's interesting how people agree that Jesus changed things, yet Hebrew roots always points back to the Law and the Old Testament. It's always ..... yes, but.

That's why Christians need to know how to put the Old Testament and the Old Covenant in their place and realize that Jesus said that He brings a NEW and EVERLASTING COVENANT, The New Covenant. That all may be saved.

I love the word 'all' it's so inclusive. I believe 'all' means 'all', so EVERYONE can enjoy the New Covenant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That is correct, however, those TWO encompassed all the others. Dividing the 10 commandments in half one half is in relation to God and the other is in relation to your neighbor. If we love God, we will do all the things that He has asked us to toward Him. If we love our neighbor we will do all the things toward our neighbor that God has asked us to. IOW if we love God, we will keep the Sabbath, we will have no other Gods before Him, etc.. If we love our neighbor we will not murder, we will not dishonor our parents, etc.. Eight commandments do not just disappear just because Yeshua bundled them down to two.

I understand the pull that you are trying to bring forward, but in Jesus words He fulfilled the Law and He overcame sin. Jesus gave us His commandments and there were two. Jesus, being the Son of God I'm sure knew what He was doing, because the reason He had to come was because none of the Israelites could keep the Law.

Remember that as you stroll back to your blast from the past towards Mosaic Law. IF and I say IF mosaic law WAS SUFFICIENT, Jesus would not have had to come.

Jesus came because mosaic law was not enough to redeem us from sin. See what I mean?

The beauty of God is that He saw the problem with mosaic law and sent us better. He saw an Old Covenant that His people could not keep, and sent us Jesus and the New Covenant dependent only on His gift of grace that everyone could keep.

God is good!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I understand the pull that you are trying to bring forward, but in Jesus words He fulfilled the Law and He overcame sin. Jesus gave us His commandments and there were two. Jesus, being the Son of God I'm sure knew what He was doing, because the reason He had to come was because none of the Israelites could keep the Law.

Remember that as you stroll back to your blast from the past towards Mosaic Law. IF and I say IF mosaic law WAS SUFFICIENT, Jesus would not have had to come.

Jesus came because mosaic law was not enough to redeem us from sin. See what I mean?

The beauty of God is that He saw the problem with mosaic law and sent us better. He saw an Old Covenant that His people could not keep, and sent us Jesus and the New Covenant dependent only on His gift of grace that everyone could keep.

God is good!

Yes, God is good. I never said though that the Mosaic law given by GOD to Moses was sufficient to save us from our sins. It was not. Keeping them does not save us. His laws are now written on my heart, therefore, I want to keep them. It's a pleasure to me and according to God it's a pleasure to HIM too. If you don't want to do those things, then don't. It's between you and He.

 

[Messy]

I understand the pull that you are trying to bring forward, but in Jesus words He fulfilled the Law and He overcame sin. Jesus gave us His commandments and there were two. Jesus, being the Son of God I'm sure knew what He was doing, because the reason He had to come was because none of the Israelites could keep the Law.

Remember that as you stroll back to your blast from the past towards Mosaic Law. IF and I say IF mosaic law WAS SUFFICIENT, Jesus would not have had to come.

Jesus came because mosaic law was not enough to redeem us from sin. See what I mean?

The beauty of God is that He saw the problem with mosaic law and sent us better. He saw an Old Covenant that His people could not keep, and sent us Jesus and the New Covenant dependent only on His gift of grace that everyone could keep.

God is good!

I think that we are to fulfill the law and the law is good but some things were a shadow. We don't need to offer goats anymore since they can't do away sin. Not eating pork I think is that it was unclean just like the gentiles were unclean or something and Peter could just eat so the law of not eating saucages is not written on our heart. If Jews want to keep on not eating it that's okay, just as they shouldn't force us to stop eating it we shouldn't force them to eat it and go to church on sunday. We made our own laws. Sabbath, no, we came into His rest, that's nonsense to keep Sabbath, but then you get the teaching that you have to give 10 percent of your time and pray 2,5 hours a day. I heard some teach that and I was watching my clock, oh the 2, 5 hours are over, I can do something for myself.
If His law is written on your heart you want to give all your life and abide in Him, be it saturday, sunday or monday. Noone should force someone to keep Sabbath and noone should force someone to stop doing it. Suppose someone is raised as an atheist and converts and later finds out that he's Jewish ethnically should he all of a sudden start to keep all the food laws? But if someone has always kept those commands and finds Jesus he doesn't all of a sudden have to live like a converted gentile.