Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[Ken Rank]

No. It was "considered" a sect of Judaism, for a while, by some....which was useful in protecting those early Christians.

Tell ya what... take 5 minutes out of your life and consider a new thought. To "prove all things" means to fairly and prayerfully consider all things. I just shared a short article with you that I wrote, it has sources and sound historical data. Instead of just commenting on the sentence that preceded my main reply to you... why not read the main reply and ask Father if there is anything for you? If we are just going to throw soundbites off each other, I won't waste the time. No offense, I just have too many other things to do anyway. Peace!

 

[Ken Rank]

Jesus made the clarification when HE said that He gives us a 'New Coventant'. Mosaic Law is the 'Old Covenant'. So, following Jesus teaching put's Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant into perspective, which is EXACTLY what I said.

Mosaic Law was good and needed during the Old Testament, but Jesus makes it clear that the New Covenant was needed because NO ONE COULD KEEP THE OLD COVENANT. We see time and time again how the Israelite's FAILED in keeping the Old Covenant. That is one of the many reasons why making too much of Mosaic Law is a PROBLEM. They could not keep it then, and no one can keep it now.

Well, study it for yourself... don't take my words or the words of others. Go to Hebrews 8:8 and see the words "new covenant." Look up the word "new" in Strong's and consider what it says. I think you'll find this isn't a new as in "never seen before" covenant.. it is renewed. God called the covenant EVERLASTING and God is not the author of confusion. If He called the covenant at Sinai everlasting, then that is it, period. Much of it deals with being in the land and we are not so much doesn't apply, but the covenant itself is everlasting "according to God." Therefore, the "new covenant" either has God repenting of calling it everlasting or is renewed as kainos in the Greek and chadashah in the Hebrew (Jer. 31:31) suggests!

 

[Ken Rank]

Then why do you still advocate for adherence to the law on stone?

I don't exactly, I advocate following God's commandments. The covenant to which we belong, is not fully in affect yet. See for yourself:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

We still need to teach... not all know the LORD and we are not all on the same page. Some have little knowledge, some much, some in the middle... there is clearly still a need to teach. And since there is a need to teach and since not all know the LORD, then the covenant is not fully in affect yet.

 

[Steeno7]

Tell ya what... take 5 minutes out of your life and consider a new thought. To "prove all things" means to fairly and prayerfully consider all things. I just shared a short article with you that I wrote, it has sources and sound historical data. Instead of just commenting on the sentence that preceded my main reply to you... why not read the main reply and ask Father if there is anything for you? If we are just going to throw soundbites off each other, I won't waste the time. No offense, I just have too many other things to do anyway. Peace!

Why don't you try responding to my post instead of trying to indoctrinate me into your belief system, eh?

 

[Steeno7]

I don't exactly, I advocate following God's commandments. The covenant to which we belong, is not fully in affect yet. See for yourself:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

We still need to teach... not all know the LORD and we are not all on the same page. Some have little knowledge, some much, some in the middle... there is clearly still a need to teach. And since there is a need to teach and since not all know the LORD, then the covenant is not fully in affect yet.

Is not what is written on stone Gods commandments? You said that was done away with by Jesus.

 

[Ken Rank]

One of the major problems with Hebrew Roots and Messianic Judaism is that they rely on books outside of the bible as part of their theology. This alone adds a layer to their beliefs that is non Christian.

Not at all. While I can't and won't speak for everyone, nobody I know walks outside of the idea that the bible is not the final authority in ALL spiritual matters. That doesn't mean I can't read a writing from that time to gain some insight into the paradigm of the inspired writers.... but the bible is still the final authority. Your comment is akin to me saying, "All Christian denominations practice and look exactly the same." Not true, you can't lump everyone into a neat little pile like that. There are some whacky people and whacky ideas in the Hebrew Roots Movement... and Messianic Judaism is nothing more than Jews for Jesus repackaged in a way that is more appealing to the Orthodox so they can evangelize them! But... there are some good people doing some quality study who love the Lord!

 

[Messy]

Romans 13
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Ken Rank]

Is not what is written on stone Gods commandments? You said that was done away with by Jesus.

Yes and no.... the law is not on your mind and heart in full YET. Paul called the giving of the Spirit an earnest (down payment) in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. That means, "some down now, more to come later." The more to come is the full writing on the mind and heart but that hasn't happened because it happens when the covenant is fully in place and it is not. We all don't know the LORD and there is still a need to teach, which means, we are not there yet. (see Jer. 31:31-34)

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, study it for yourself... don't take my words or the words of others. Go to Hebrews 8:8 and see the words "new covenant." Look up the word "new" in Strong's and consider what it says. I think you'll find this isn't a new as in "never seen before" covenant.. it is renewed. God called the covenant EVERLASTING and God is not the author of confusion. If He called the covenant at Sinai everlasting, then that is it, period. Much of it deals with being in the land and we are not so much doesn't apply, but the covenant itself is everlasting "according to God." Therefore, the "new covenant" either has God repenting of calling it everlasting or is renewed as kainos in the Greek and chadashah in the Hebrew (Jer. 31:31) suggests!

The Old Covenant was not made to all peoples. The Old Covenant was between the Israelite's and God.

The New Covenant includes the gentiles.

You are right God does not author confusion. When we understand what the Old Covenant was and who was involved, and we read about the New Covenant and who was involved, than we see the full picture.

 

[Ken Rank]

Romans 13
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes, because if you love your neighbor you won't steal from him. If you love him you won't murder him nor take his wife or covet his John Deere lawn tractor. If we love God we won't take His name in vain or serve another. Love is the essence of the Law... it doesn't abrogate the law, it is the position from which we function in the law.

There are 613 +/- commandments, Messy. If you took two large nails and put them in the wall side by side, with one for "Love God" and the other for "Love neighbor," you can go through every commandment and file them on one or the other nail. The two sum up the 10, the 10 sum up the rest. Love is the underlying essence of the law.

 

[Steeno7]

Yes and no.... the law is not on your mind and heart in full YET. Paul called the giving of the Spirit an earnest (down payment) in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. That means, "some down now, more to come later." The more to come is the full writing on the mind and heart but that hasn't happened because it happens when the covenant is fully in place and it is not. We all don't know the LORD and there is still a need to teach, which means, we are not there yet. (see Jer. 31:31-34)

Oh, so the law is only "partially" written on our hearts. Got it.

Anytime you have to “modify” what Scripture says to make your belief system work, it is your belief system that needs to change, not Scripture.

 

[Ken Rank]

The Old Covenant was not made to all peoples. The Old Covenant was between the Israelite's and God.

The New Covenant includes the gentiles.

You are right God does not author confusion. When we understand what the Old Covenant was and who was involved, and we read about the New Covenant and who was involved, than we see the full picture.

Well, when I read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-11 I don't see gentiles mentioned, I see the House of Judah (Jews) and the House of Israel (whom I believe is you). The word gentile is not listed there, in fact... Paul said we WERE gentiles and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellow citizens. (Eph. 2).

The word gentile as used when the first English bibles were printed, meant "a pagan, a heathen, somebody who is not a Jew nor Christian." (Source - Webster's 1828 edition) The definition of that word has changed even though we continued using it as a translation of ethnos (Gr) and goyim (heb). Those two words are dealing with nations OUTSIDE of Israel and you will not find either of those two words associated with "new covenant" anywhere in the bible. It is a modern teaching using the modern definition of gentiles with no biblical support at all. The covenant is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (and their companions) and that's it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Oh, so the law is only "partially" written on our hearts. Got it.

Anytime you have to “modify” what Scripture says to make your belief system work, it is your belief system that needs to change, not Scripture.

 

[Ken Rank]

Oh, so the law is only "partially" written on our hearts. Got it.

Yes.... that is why Paul called it "arrhabōn," (G728) an earnest, a down payment (again, 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 - please go look them up). The text plainly states that I will make a covenant, I will write the law on the mind and heart, and it will happen WHEN?

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

But since we still need to teach, and not all know the Lord... then it hasn't happened yet. Cute emoticon but if we still need to teach and not all know the Lord, then only your desire to maintain your current beliefs can trump the text. You're welcome to that, I mean it... but don't waste your time trying to change my mind. I don't mind being wrong... but I am not on this. The verse is pasted above... not all know the Lord, we still need to teach, that clearly means it isn't fully in place, YET. That is work Yeshua will do when he returns. It is part of the perfection process...

No reason to get snarky.... I am just sharing some thoughts. If you don't agree, so be it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, when I read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-11 I don't see gentiles mentioned, I see the House of Judah (Jews) and the House of Israel (whom I believe is you). The word gentile is not listed there, in fact... Paul said we WERE gentiles and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellow citizens. (Eph. 2).

The word gentile as used when the first English bibles were printed, meant "a pagan, a heathen, somebody who is not a Jew nor Christian." (Source - Webster's 1828 edition) The definition of that word has changed even though we continued using it as a translation of ethnos (Gr) and goyim (heb). Those two words are dealing with nations OUTSIDE of Israel and you will not find either of those two words associated with "new covenant" anywhere in the bible. It is a modern teaching using the modern definition of gentiles with no biblical support at all. The covenant is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (and their companions) and that's it.

You made my point.

You reference Ephesians 2. Exactly, in the New Testament, under the New Covenant is where gentiles come in.

I think you can see why the New Testament and the New Covenant is so important. It is the covenant of the blood of the Only Begotten Son of the Father. God with us. Jesus did that. The Old Covenant was NOT God with us. The Old Covenant was not communion with God and did not give us the Holy Spirit.

 

[Netzari777]

IMHO it is nothing more than the latest flavor of the continuing attempt to judaize Christianity that has been going on since the inception of Christianity, and which so much of the NT was written to guard against.

Luke 24:44 If you want to know what the Messiah is doing, study the Law the prophets and the writings. He said that is where the answer lies.

 

[Ken Rank]

You made my point.

You reference Ephesians 2. Exactly, in the New Testament, under the New Covenant is where gentiles come in.

Israel was scattered into the nations, among gentiles. This is first prophesied in Deut. 30:1-6 but we see it throughout, try all of Hosea 1. Anyway... Yeshua said, and these are HIS WORDS so take this up with him and don't argue with me... "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." The House of Israel, the ones sent into the nations as prophesied who were ALSO prophesied to be called back. So, they were gentiles "in the flesh" and Paul said you WERE GENTILES, you are NOT NOW gentiles, you WERE GENTILES, WERE ALIENS of the commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellowcitizens.

The strangers who came out of Egypt with Israel, attaching themselves to the God of Israel were to be treated as "native born" God said. He also gave the Torah to Israel "and the stranger with them." And lastly, they were to "assimilate into the tribes they traveled with." They became grafted in... no longer strangers, no longer aliens, no longer gentiles.... they were as much "Israel" as the native born. And such is the case with you. Paul saying you WERE a gentile means you are NOT ONE NOW.

Sorry, I didn't make your point.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Luke 24:44 If you want to know what the Messiah is doing, study the Law the prophets and the writings. He said that is where the answer lies.

That is not what Luke 24:44 says.

Luke 22:44
"And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground."

It seems the Messiah was in prayer to the Father.

 

[Ken Rank]

Why don't you try responding to my post instead of trying to indoctrinate me into your belief system, eh?

I am not trying to do that. I was asked a question, then... you made a point that is not supported by history nor scripture. So, I shared an excerpt from an article I wrote. It explains when and why Christianity ceased being a sect of Judaism. If you choose to just believe whatever you believe, that is fine. If you choose not to read the post, that is fine. I shared it and it is there if you want to read it. If not, fine. But I am not trying to get you to believe anything... I am answering questions and a few accusations.

Folks... I have no axe to grind and consider you all brothers and sisters. We don't need to see eye to eye... what we do need to to is not cause strife among brethren, God HATES that (see Prov. 6:16-19). So, either this becomes an edifying conversation where we can share and glean with and from each other, or I am done.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Israel was scattered into the nations, among gentiles. This is first prophesied in Deut. 30:1-6 but we see it throughout, try all of Hosea 1. Anyway... Yeshua said, and these are HIS WORDS so take this up with him and don't argue with me... "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." The House of Israel, the ones sent into the nations as prophesied who were ALSO prophesied to be called back. So, they were gentiles "in the flesh" and Paul said you WERE GENTILES, you are NOT NOW gentiles, you WERE GENTILES, WERE ALIENS of the commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellowcitizens.

The strangers who came out of Egypt with Israel, attaching themselves to the God of Israel were to be treated as "native born" God said. He also gave the Torah to Israel "and the stranger with them." And lastly, they were to "assimilate into the tribes they traveled with." They became grafted in... no longer strangers, no longer aliens, no longer gentiles.... they were as much "Israel" as the native born. And such is the case with you. Paul saying you WERE a gentile means you are NOT ONE NOW.

Sorry, I didn't make your point.

Of course Jesus said that "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.". Because He was the Salvation for all the world. See how much greater the New Covenant is. You so make my point. We are all fellow citizens in the New Covenant. Praise Jesus!