Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[SpiritPsalmist]

None of it is everlasting, because heaven and earth will pass away and we won't need them.

There is a difference between new testament and new covenant. What is the new testament? The written proof that Yeshua has come, and salvation is open to all.

Yeshua said, "Not one jot or tittle will pass away UNTIL heaven and earth pass away"

 

[jiminpa]

Jesus is the English spelling of the name of the Messiah but Yeshua is an invented spelling with no pedigree older than the 19th century. It is an invented spelling. But Jesus is a spelling based squarely on the Greek spelling of the name of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. The Greek spelling looks like this Ἰησοῦ which in the letters we use is Iesou and the title of his office as Messiah is in Greek Χριστοῦ and in our letters it is Christou. But there is no Yeshua in the Greek new testament anywhere. It is not a new testament word and has no special place in Christian faith. But the name of Jesus certainly has a special place (Acts 4:12) the most pre-eminent place for Christians (Philippians 2:10).

Your premise has already been refuted in this thread. Thanks for pressing the issue. I am now leaning toward a more "sacred name." stance.

 

[pat34lee]

Jesus is the English spelling of the name of the Messiah but Yeshua is an invented spelling with no pedigree older than the 19th century. It is an invented spelling. But Jesus is a spelling based squarely on the Greek spelling of the name of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. The Greek spelling looks like this Ἰησοῦ which in the letters we use is Iesou and the title of his office as Messiah is in Greek Χριστοῦ and in our letters it is Christou. But there is no Yeshua in the Greek new testament anywhere. It is not a new testament word and has no special place in Christian faith. But the name of Jesus certainly has a special place (Acts 4:12) the most pre-eminent place for Christians (Philippians 2:10).

You may want to check again. In Acts 7:45, some translations say Jesus, some say Joshua, but the person in question is the Joshua who entered the promised land after Moses died. They are both the same in Greek, which makes them the same in Hebrew.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sorry, but christ just means annointed and was used for every Greek god and demigod. Messiah is not the same, as it applies to only one. Lord is a title for anyone of nobility. Jesus is a translation of a transliteration. A no-no in languages.

As to the letter 'J', it didn't exist for another 1500 years or more. Before that, you had Iesus. The j sound came even later, as the early J only took the place of I to begin words, but had the same sound. A closer alternative today would be Joshua, which was the same name as Jesus in Hebrew, only correctly changed.

Yet Christ is the word used by the inspired and holy scriptures and even though your post dismisses it as associated with pagans and their gods and demigods the Holy Spirit saw fit to use it of the Son of God. It may seem clever to some to dismiss Christ as a mere word of no consequence and to disregard the name of the Lord Jesus as a Greek spelling of some other name from Hebrew or even from Aramaic but the Holy Spirit gave that name to the world in Greek and not in Aramaic nor in ancient Hebrew. So be careful about dismissing the Lord Jesus Christ's name because some say that another name is greater or better. None is.

By the way, the letter "j" came from middle high German some time between 1000 AD and 1300 AD. It was pronounced like i or y but in English it gained a different pronunciation some time around 1450 AD. Of course the development of the letter J is of no consequence. Yeshua is an invented word, no doubt it is intended to be a hebraic style representation of Joshua but the pronunciation Yeshua is every bit as new and speculative as Yahweh for the ancient Hebrew tetragrammaton.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your premise has already been refuted in this thread. Thanks for pressing the issue. I am now leaning toward a more "sacred name." stance.

Declaring your point of view victorious does not win the argument even if you wish it did.

 

[Frogster]

None of it is everlasting, because heaven and earth will pass away and we won't need them.

There is a difference between new testament and new covenant. What is the new testament? The written proof that Yeshua has come, and salvation is open to all.

but the point was, the new cov is in effect, that was the point, thanks!

 

[MoreCoffee]

You may want to check again. In Acts 7:45, some translations say Jesus, some say Joshua, but the person in question is the Joshua who entered the promised land after Moses died. They are both the same in Greek, which makes them the same in Hebrew.

The text of Acts 7:45 in Greek is ἣν καὶ εἰσήγαγον διαδεξάμενοι οἱ πατέρες ἡμῶν μετὰ Ἰησοῦ ἐν τῇ κατασχέσει τῶν ἐθνῶν ὧν ἐξῶσεν ὁ θεὸς ἀπὸ προσώπου τῶν πατέρων ἡμῶν ἕως τῶν ἡμερῶν Δαυίδ, The word in bold is, in English letters, Iesou and in English vocabulary it is Jesus. The reference in the verse is to Joshua the helper of Moses. Now can you tell me how that occurrence of "Jesus" establishes the rightness of using "Yeshua" as a replacement for the name of Jesus? This passage is in Greek not in Hebrew script not in the Hebrew language so inserting the comment "which makes them the same in Hebrew" has absolutely nothing to do with what is in the text of Acts 7:45. By the way, we are conducting the discussion in English and not in Hebrew so distinctively Hebrew pronunciations (which represent a system of pronunciation invented in recent centuries because the ancient pronunciation of Hebrew was lost when the language became a dead language) have no special significance for English speaking Christians. But for those who happen to be modern Hebrew speaking people (mainly the residents of the modern state of Israel) Yeshua may be how they say "Jesus" in their language.

 

[jiminpa]

Declaring your point of view victorious does not win the argument even if you wish it did.

While that is true, my statement was also true. Your premise was already refuted. There was no way for a Jew to pronounce Jesus, and it would have been meaningless if he could have, but Yeshua, or even more so, Yashua actually means exactly what the Messiah was, "God's salvation." Keep going, you'll make a sacred namer out of me yet.

 

[MoreCoffee]

While that is true, my statement was also true. Your premise was already refuted. There was no way for a Jew to pronounce Jesus, and it would have been meaningless if he could have, but Yeshua, or even more so, Yashua actually means exactly what the Messiah was, "God's salvation." Keep going, you'll make a sacred namer out of me yet.

Any Jew who speaks English can say Jesus unless they have some sort of speech impediment that precludes uttering the letter J. And in ancient Israel or in the province of Judea in the time of Christ what the Jews said when addressing the Lord Jesus Christ is represented almost exclusively in the Greek letters Ἰησοῦ and not by "Yeshua" or a Greek equivalent. Jesus is far closer to the spelling and pronunciation of the name of the Lord as it is preserved for us in holy scripture than is Yeshua.

 

[Messy]

You won't find a NT command outlawing homosexuality. We do see Paul speaking on it in Romans 1.... but Yeshua said, "if you love me keep MY commandments." You seem to believe his commandments are different and only that which he said in the NT is applicable. Therefore, you have legalized homosexuality and caused the God who changes not to change because He called the Sinai covenant "everlasting." And if He changed His mind about THAT... He can change His mind about who the door is today!

Paul says those will not inherit the Kingdom. He doesn't say that about eating pork or not keeping the Sabbath.

 

[Messy]

Jesus is the English spelling of the name of the Messiah but Yeshua is an invented spelling with no pedigree older than the 19th century. It is an invented spelling. But Jesus is a spelling based squarely on the Greek spelling of the name of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. The Greek spelling looks like this Ἰησοῦ which in the letters we use is Iesou and the title of his office as Messiah is in Greek Χριστοῦ and in our letters it is Christou. But there is no Yeshua in the Greek new testament anywhere. It is not a new testament word and has no special place in Christian faith. But the name of Jesus certainly has a special place (Acts 4:12) the most pre-eminent place for Christians (Philippians 2:10).

So Jesus was a Greek and spoke Greek to the disciples and those Greek disciples called Him by His Greek Name? Then we should use the Greek. Why on earth translate a name to your own language anyway?
I know a couple from Holland, Henk and Betsie, but they immigrated to Canada and now everyone calls them Beth and Henry. Telling me I'm wrong that their real names are Betsie and Henk is just stupid. A Canadian telling me about a Dutch name as if they know better? That's like telling a Jew his Messiah has a Greek name.

 

[Messy]

 

[MoreCoffee]

So Jesus was a Greek and spoke Greek to the disciples and those Greek disciples called Him by His Greek Name? Then we should use the Greek. Why on earth translate a name to your own language anyway?

I know a couple from Holland, Henk and Betsie, but they immigranten to Canada and now everyone calls them Beth and Henry. Telling me I'm wrong that their real names are Betsie and Henk is just stupid. A Canadian telling me about a Dutch name as if they know better? That's like telling a Jew his Messiah has a Greek name.

Jesus was not a Greek and if he spoke Greek or Aramaic is not clear from the new testament scriptures. It is likely that he spoke Aramaic because that was the common language of Judea in his life time. But the Holy Spirit inspired the holy scriptures of the new testament to be written in Greek and the name of Jesus in the scriptures is Ἰησοῦ and so we (who speak English) spell his name as Jesus. But Yeshua is not Jesus name in either ancient Hebrew, first century AD Aramaic, or Koine Greek it is a modern synthetic pronunciation and spelling developed by the same methods as was Yahweh (as a pronunciation for the tetragrammaton). Yeshua is not a superior name, better and more accurate. Yeshua is just a hypothetical and theoretical pronunciation for the supposed name of the Lord Jesus Christ but what need have Christians for a supposed name for the Lord Jesus Christ when he have his actual name in the holy scriptures? He is Jesus Christ the son of the Living God and here is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

 

[MoreCoffee]

What a terrible and blasphemous subtitle that is.

 

[Messy]

Jesus was not a Greek and if he spoke Greek or Aramaic is not clear from the new testament scriptures. It is likely that he spoke Aramaic because that was the common language of Judea in his life time. But the Holy Spirit inspired the holy scriptures of the new testament to be written in Greek and the name of Jesus in the scriptures is Ἰησοῦ and so we (who speak English) spell his name as Jesus. But Yeshua is not Jesus name in either ancient Hebrew, first century AD Aramaic, or Koine Greek it is a modern synthetic pronunciation and spelling developed by the same methods as was Yahweh (as a pronunciation for the tetragrammaton). Yeshua is not a superior name, better and more accurate. Yeshua is just a hypothetical and theoretical pronunciation for the supposed name of the Lord Jesus Christ but what need have Christians for a supposed name for the Lord Jesus Christ when he have his actual name in the holy scriptures? He is Jesus Christ the son of the Living God and here is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

Okay, now I get your reasoning, the Holy Spirit inspired them to write it in Greek. I didn't know they spoke Aramic, wonder what His Name is in Aramic, but in fact even if they spoke Greek I just can't imagine the angel telling a Jewish Mary and Joseph waiting for a Jewish Messiah that they must give Him a Greek Name. What's also weird is that they left YHWH out of the Bible and replaced it with 'the Lord', which is no name.
By the way didn't the angel say Emmanuel? Whatever.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay, now I get your reasoning, the Holy Spirit inspired them to write in in Greek. I didn't know they spoke Aramic, wonder what His Name is in Aramic, but in fact even if they spoke Greek I just can't imagine the angel telling a Jewish Mary and Joseph waiting for a Jewish Messiah that they must give Him a Greek Name. What's also weird is that they left JHWH out of the Bible and replaced it with 'the Lord', which is no name.

No one needs to imagine what was said because the scriptures tell us and they tell us in Greek the language in which the Holy Spirit gave the scriptures of the new testament. The name that the angel said the Lord would be called is Jesus (not Yeshua).

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
(Luke 1:30-31 KJV)

​

 

[Messy]

As Shakespeare said, “That which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet”

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Yeshua-Jesus.html#ixzz3c4qv6DNu

 

[MoreCoffee]

As Shakespeare said, “That which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet”

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Yeshua-Jesus.html#ixzz3c4qv6DNu

While it is true that Calling the Lord Jesus Christ by a different name does not diminish him, because he is God and no name that a man or a woman can pronounce can make him greater or less, it is also true that the Holy Spirit gave the faithful one name and no other; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(Acts 4:10-12 KJV)

 

[AnnekeCr]

I actually attend a 'Jewish roots' or 'Messianic' congregation.

It's very interesting, because the people who go there are from many different denominations. I am probably more pentecostal, but there are anglicans, baptists, even a catholic priest who attends! And also of course jewish people who are still coming to grips with the whole grace / law thing.

The teaching is very focused on what does the Bible say, instead of interpretations etc. so the messages are very non-denominational and aren't anything new or contrary to what is preached in "normal" churches (haha whatever that is ). So I see it as less of a theological movement, and more of a cultural movement if that makes sense? We celebrate the traditional jewish festivals that Jesus and the early church celebrated as well. I find these festivals particularly fascinating and enjoyable because of the prophetic meaning hidden in all of them (spoiler alert - they all point to Jesus and the Holy Spirit!).

Also, understanding some of the Jewish practices and traditions helps you to understand some of the strange habits and practices in the Bible and also a lot of the parables that Jesus said. For instance why did the lady get healed by touching the hem of Jesus's garment? That's pretty interesting to look at from a Jewish perspective... Also the church in large today is not really reading or teaching from the Old Testament and generally has a large lack of understanding in this area (speaking from personal experience here). This is something that the Messianic movement focuses on correcting by having a deepened understanding of Jewish culture etc. Personally I mostly read from the NT because there is so much life in it, but I also think it is important to at least understand the OT. And there is also a lot of beauty in it, especially when looking at all the prophecies about Jesus in the OT. (Ruth and Boaz is one example - a type or metaphor for Jesus redeeming the gentile church.)

Having an understanding from this Jewish perspective, makes it not only meaningful for yourself, but it also enables you to share the gospel with Jewish people.

The whole Bible, but also the New Testament makes it very clear that God is not abandoning His Jewish people and that He is not done with them yet. We as gentiles have the privilege to 'provoke them to jealousy.' Romans 11:11 - "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

Sadly I have seen a lot of people in the Messianic movement that have adopted some unhealthy beliefs (we have to become Jews ourselves, follow the law etc.) which is not good or true, but in general I see the movement as something positive! Finding our roots again which gives meaning to today! And understanding God's purposes for Israel and their future.

P.S. Some churches see God's love for Israel as: CHURCH vs. ISRAEL. And the Messianic movement is very focused on restoring that view. God doesn't love exclusively, He is love! But there are specific prophecies for Israel and the Jewish people that do not apply to the church. And then there are specific prophecies and blessings for the church that does not include Israel.

(Not wanting to debate on here. Just thought I would shed some light on the movement since I am in it!)

 

[Tony Conrad]

I can't understand what the argument is here. Obviously the new testament writings do not want christians to be Jews. Nevertheless it is true that we have been grafted into their olive tree and some of them have been broken off due to blindness, but God has not cast them away.

However there are lots of scriptures that tell us to bless Israel (which was in Abraham's loins) and pray for the peace of Jerusalem. God still has purposes and destinies for the present Israel. The scriptures are full of them. Christ is coming back to Jerusalem and Jesus is still called the Lion of Judah, even in heaven. The foundation of the New Jerusalem the bride of Christ is the twelve tribes of Israel. See revelation. These things are hard to understand but we write off the Jews at our peril.