Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[SpiritPsalmist]

Can God do a new thing?

I don't know what your comment is in ref to, but there is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc 1:9)

 

[Messy]

Can God do a new thing?

Yes Isaiah 43

 

[Steeno7]

I don't know what your comment is in ref to

Well, you brought in that, "God does not change", why? And what relevance do you think that has to the OP?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Well, you brought in that, "God does not change", why? And what relevance do you think that has to the OP?

The OP asked what we thought was right about the Hebrew Roots teaching and my reply was "that God is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever". Sounds pretty relevent to the OP to me. What about you trying to start an argument on the way people answer the OP question? How is that relevent to the OP?

 

[Ken Rank]

There's a movement afoot that goes by several names and covers several shades of meaning. The most descriptive name is Hebrew Roots. Some of you will be familiar with this movement, some may be members, some may be opposed. I am curious to find out more about it and about what is right or wrong about its teaching. Please offer your views and if you have backing from holy scripture please include it.

I am an elder in a congregation that would fall into this category. Like Christianity mainstream, there are many flavors of Hebrew Roots. Some to take things to an extreme... I tend to avoid them. With most you'll consistently find agreement on most everything you believe but there tends to be one sticking point, the Torah. (Law) While we do NOT believe that salvation comes from obedience at all, we also do not believe that Yeshua (Jesus) did away with it either. A verse like Matthew 5:17, for example, is literally contradicting itself if we force the word "fulfill" to mean "abolish." So, while we believe in salvation by grace, we also believe we are to do what Yeshua did, which is follow the law. 1 John 3:4 says that sin is the breaking of the law, living outside of the law, and if that is true, then perhaps there are other verses we have been interpreting out of context.

I would be happy to answer any questions about what I believe and why.... I won't debate because I don't care if you don't agree. I believe what I believe and you (anyone) can believe what you believe and we'll let God sort it out later. Peace!

 

[Ken Rank]

Hebrew Roots has nothing at all to do with being of Jewish decent. It is the recognition that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, and the realization that the Old Testament is as much scripture and valuable as the New Testament. Until Constantine, (the real first pope), founded the religion that was to become the Roman Catholic Church those who were called Christians were actually messianic believers,(Jews and Gentiles), who understood the foundation of Christianity. When Paul said that all scripture is God breathed the New Testament had not been compiled or even fully written, so he was referring to the Old Testament, and he called it profitable for doctrine, teaching and reproof. The lessons of the Old Testament pointed to the same God as New Testament, and the writers of the New Testament assumed an understanding of the scriptures in the writings that were to become the New Testament.

This is a good summation. Those that say, "I live only in the NT" are ignorant of the fact that of the 7967 NT verses, the OT is at least "referenced" 2606 times. I realize some websites claim only 250+ OT quotes in the NT, but that does not take into account partial quotes and inferences whose context is clearly drawing from an OT passage. So the "NT Christian" is really walking in the OT, unknowingly, 32.7% of the time. Numbers aside, the bottom line is simply that messiah was Hebraic as was the face of the faith until after the Bar Khokba revolt of 134AD. After that, when the remaining Jewish Christians who didn't leave when the Temple was destroyed, left, the faith quickly developed a Greek face and by 150, Sunday was the majority rule and decrees began to be passed to make the faith appear less "Jewish." Hebrew Roots is Christians looking to find their way back to that pre-Greek face... to consider the Scripture through the paradigm that the first century Christian might have used. And when you do that... the context does change. Yeshua is still messiah and salvation is still by grace... but a funny thing happens.... you learn to appreciate more deeply the things he did for us.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Winken]

Jesus did not come to abrogate or do away with or erase anything. He became everything. He embodied "all of the above." He, Himself, literally fulfilled in every aspect of His Being the imperatives of the Hebrew religion. No longer were religious imperatives in place. HE was the sole imperative. How do we acknowledge that? Romans 10:8-13.

 

[Steeno7]

The OP asked what we thought was right about the Hebrew Roots teaching and my reply was "that God is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever". Sounds pretty relevent to the OP to me.

How is it relevant to the OP?

 

[Ruth Amy]

If you would like to hear a sermon on the Hebrew Roots movement, with lots of scripture, here is Pastor Mike Hoggard:

He has done several programmes on this subject. I'd be interested to hear what others think of his position.

 

[Ken Rank]

Jesus did not come to abrogate or do away with or erase anything. He became everything. He embodied "all of the above." He, Himself, literally fulfilled in every aspect of His Being the imperatives of the Hebrew religion. No longer were religious imperatives in place. HE was the sole imperative. How do we acknowledge that? Romans 10:8-13.

Thayer and Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicons provide an additional definition of pleroo (fulfill) which I paraphrase by saying it means "He came to walk it out in such a way that showed us all what God expects." Unparaphrased:

2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

If we are to force "fulfill" to mean that once a certain thing is "fulfilled" that we no longer have to do it, then we will quickly become a people who will recreate God in whatever image is tolerable to us. Oh, wait... many already are!

 

[Ken Rank]

If you would like to hear a sermon on the Hebrew Roots movement, with lots of scripture, here is Pastor Mike Hoggard:

He has done several programmes on this subject. I'd be interested to hear what others think of his position.

I have watched a few, and others like him... I believe him to be sincere and wanting to do for the Lord as he understands, but this pastor does not really know what a person like me believes. The assumption is always "works unto salvation" and that is just a doctrine I abhor. If we could work our way unto salvation, we wouldn't need Yeshua. That said, nothing I just said abrogates the commandments. He said himself, "If you love me keep my commandments" and the words he spoke, he said, were the Father's words! That is why John wrote, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." Just NOT unto salvation. We do not work to be saved.... but the saved are supposed to work! Blessings!

 

[eyupmiduk]

I first came across Hebrew Roots of Christianity in 1996 with Clifford Denton and Tishrei Ministries. I found what he had to say quite compelling. His major points were the truth of Scripture and understanding the New Testament with reference to the culture that produced it. From that viewpoint it can only deepen our knowledge of God's Word. However, "Gentile" Christians don't need to become like Jews to be more accepted into the family of God. "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus." Eph 3:6

 

[Anderseric]

Gosh, Paul did not even go to temple for 17 years.

Gal 4:12. right from Paul! he too was not living out 'Jewish roots"


New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to live as I do in freedom from these things, for I have become like you Gentiles--free from those laws. You did not mistreat me when I first preached to you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I beg you, brothers: Become like me, for I also became like you. You have not wronged me;

Amplified Bible
4:12 Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].

Frogster: You suggest that Paul did not go to the temple for 17 years. Did you notice in Acts 20:16 Paul sailed past Ephesus and hurried to be at Jerusalem for the day of Pentecost. It does not say whether he made it that time, but that was Paul's intent. Paul said, " I am a pharisee of pharisees." Paul did not say he "was" a pharisee.

 

[Steeno7]

This is a good summation. Those that say, "I live only in the NT" are ignorant of the fact that of the 7967 NT verses, the OT is at least "referenced" 2606 times. I realize some websites claim only 250+ OT quotes in the NT, but that does not take into account partial quotes and inferences whose context is clearly drawing from an OT passage. So the "NT Christian" is really walking in the OT, unknowingly, 32.7% of the time. Numbers aside, the bottom line is simply that messiah was Hebraic as was the face of the faith until after the Bar Khokba revolt of 134AD. After that, when the remaining Jewish Christians who didn't leave when the Temple was destroyed, left, the faith quickly developed a Greek face and by 150, Sunday was the majority rule and decrees began to be passed to make the faith appear less "Jewish." Hebrew Roots is Christians looking to find their way back to that pre-Greek face... to consider the Scripture through the paradigm that the first century Christian might have used. And when you do that... the context does change. Yeshua is still messiah and salvation is still by grace... but a funny thing happens.... you learn to appreciate more deeply the things he did for us.

Blessings.
Ken

What's wrong with the Greek "face"?

 

[Messy]

Gosh, Paul did not even go to temple for 17 years.

Gal 4:12. right from Paul! he too was not living out 'Jewish roots"


New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to live as I do in freedom from these things, for I have become like you Gentiles--free from those laws. You did not mistreat me when I first preached to you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I beg you, brothers: Become like me, for I also became like you. You have not wronged me;

Amplified Bible
4:12 Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].

1 Corinthians 9

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

 

[Winken]

If we are to force "fulfill" to mean that once a certain thing is "fulfilled" that we no longer have to do it, then we will quickly become a people who will recreate God in whatever image is tolerable to us. Oh, wait... many already are!

The word "fulfill" is complete in and of itself. It isn't forced. It can't be. The fulfillment is Jesus, embodying everything necessary for one to become saved and secure for eternity. We who are saved and secure don't have to "do" anything. HE has done it. HE has completed everything that was/is Spiritually completed. There is nothing for us to recreate. Those who are not saved and secure need to get that way, not by works, not by human effort, not by intellectual acquiesence, but through Romans 10:8-13. The "study materials" for that are found in John 3:3, John 3:16-17, John 5:24, John 14:6.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thayer and Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicons provide an additional definition of pleroo (fulfill) which I paraphrase by saying it means "He came to walk it out in such a way that showed us all what God expects." Unparaphrased:

2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

If we are to force "fulfill" to mean that once a certain thing is "fulfilled" that we no longer have to do it, then we will quickly become a people who will recreate God in whatever image is tolerable to us. Oh, wait... many already are!

So what part of the Jewish-Roots movement do you think that Jim Staley of Passion For Truth ministries occupies?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have watched a few, and others like him... I believe him to be sincere and wanting to do for the Lord as he understands, but this pastor does not really know what a person like me believes. The assumption is always "works unto salvation" and that is just a doctrine I abhor. If we could work our way unto salvation, we wouldn't need Yeshua. That said, nothing I just said abrogates the commandments. He said himself, "If you love me keep my commandments" and the words he spoke, he said, were the Father's words! That is why John wrote, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." Just NOT unto salvation. We do not work to be saved.... but the saved are supposed to work! Blessings!

The commandments that Jesus asked the faithful to keep are the ones he gave; namely love one another as I have loved you and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. He wasn't asking the faithful to keep Torah. And he said those things to Jews; to the twelve apostles.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ...

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
(John 14:15-21; 15:12-14 KJV)​

​

 

[Frogster]

Hebrew Roots has nothing at all to do with being of Jewish decent. It is the recognition that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, and the realization that the Old Testament is as much scripture and valuable as the New Testament. Until Constantine, (the real first pope), founded the religion that was to become the Roman Catholic Church those who were called Christians were actually messianic believers,(Jews and Gentiles), who understood the foundation of Christianity. When Paul said that all scripture is God breathed the New Testament had not been compiled or even fully written, so he was referring to the Old Testament, and he called it profitable for doctrine, teaching and reproof. The lessons of the Old Testament pointed to the same God as New Testament, and the writers of the New Testament assumed an understanding of the scriptures in the writings that were to become the New Testament.

But Paul used the OT, to promote Christ, and faith, not law or Judaism.


Habakkuk 2:4 quoted 3 times in the NT. Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith."

And in Acts 13 and 28 Paul used the OT to rebuke the unbelieving Jews as Stephen did in Acts. So indeed we need perspective from the OT on this so called "Hebrew Roots".

And Jesus, Peter and Paul both used the OT to talk about the stumbling block, the chief cornerstone that was rejected etc, when people try to come to Christ by law, again, sorry but it was directed at Jewish people, Matt 21, Rom 9, and 1 Peter 2. So the church is not about "Hebrew "Roots". We are of Abraham, before circumcision, Rom 4, Gal 3-4, Rom 9.


Also, the OT does not have the revelation that the NT has, Paul said there were things hidden in several passages, and Heb 1:1 shows that they did not know what we do.


Heb 1:1 WHEN IN FORMER TIMES God spoke to our forefathers, he spoke in fragmentary and varied fashion through the prophets.

 

[Frogster]

The OP asked what we thought was right about the Hebrew Roots teaching and my reply was "that God is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever". Sounds pretty relevent to the OP to me. What about you trying to start an argument on the way people answer the OP question? How is that relevent to the OP?

Jesus is the same, but the Old cov is gone. Heb 10:9.