Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[Ken Rank]

What's wrong with the Greek "face"?

The Hebraic mind is less detail oriented and seeks to be one "in function" whereas the Greek mindset is far more detailed and seeks to be more "form" centered. Regarding the detail.... the Hebrew will hear "1 foot" and consider the size of a man's foot. The Greek/Western mind will measure off 12 inches. Regarding form and function... the Hebrew knows he is but a piece in a larger picture and he understands that each piece doesn't need to look, act, or think alike... they just understand that being "one" is in regarding to the grand scheme of things, the larger picture. The Greek leans toward agreement in thought and appearance.... which is why there are 40,000+ denominations and sects. He runs into disagreement and can't handle it, so he divides the body over it. Jesus and the disciples were Jewish, who were raised in a Jewish culture, who used Jewish rules of exegesis (especially Paul), who used idioms and other abstract forms of speech that were unique to the Hebraic mind that we don't even weigh into the context today.

 

[Frogster]

Frogster: You suggest that Paul did not go to the temple for 17 years. Did you notice in Acts 20:16 Paul sailed past Ephesus and hurried to be at Jerusalem for the day of Pentecost. It does not say whether he made it that time, but that was Paul's intent. Paul said, " I am a pharisee of pharisees." Paul did not say he "was" a pharisee.

The 17 years were from conversion, your citation of Acts 20 was afterward.

Paul said he did not go to Jerusalem for 14 years, and that was after he first visited Peter in Jerusalem for 15 days, 3 years after Paul's conversion Gal 1;18, bringing it to 17 years of not going to the temple.


Gal 2:2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me.

 

[Ken Rank]

The commandments that Jesus asked the faithful to keep are the ones he gave; namely love one another as I have loved you and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. He wasn't asking the faithful to keep Torah. And he said those things to Jews; to the twelve apostles.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ...

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
(John 14:15-21; 15:12-14 KJV)​

The two Great Commandments were not new things my friend. He wasn't creating a new religion with new commandments, he was repeating existing commandments:


Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD (5) And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Peace!
Ken

 

[MoreCoffee]

The two Great Commandments were not new things my friend. He wasn't creating a new religion with new commandments, he was repeating existing commandments:


Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD (5) And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Peace!
Ken

Did you think that the passage I quoted was about the two great commandments of the old covenant? Look again and you will see it was not.

 

[Frogster]

1 Corinthians 9

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

Yes, and to become as those under the law, meant he was not under law, to become something, means you were not of it prior. Paul was smart, even the frog, if he met a Jewish person tomorrow, and I invited him to dinner in hopes of converting them, I would not serve pork, that is just good common sense, and being wise in evangelism.Good to see ya!

 

[Ken Rank]

Jesus is the same, but the Old cov is gone. Heb 10:9.

No, the problem here is God called the "old covenant" everlasting. (See Psalm 105:8-10 as one example) So how can God call it everlasting and then change it? What has changed, Frogster, is simply the placement of Torah. It was on stone... we had a stoney heart Ezekiel called it. And we are given a heart of flesh... the Law written on the mind and heart as part of the covenant. The law (on stone) acted as a schoolmaster testifying of and leading us to Messiah through whom we ultimately get what was on stone moved to the place we cannot keep it without God putting it there, the heart.

This is backed up in the Greek language. There are two words that are translated as "new" in the NT, nehos and kainos. If you look them up you will find that one means brand new or new in regards to AGE, and the other is new in regards to FRESHNESS. The "new covenant" is always kainos diatheke, which is renewed covenant. That makes sense if God first called it everlasting to begin with. When we go back to the Hebrew (Jeremiah 31:31) we see where Hebrews 8:8 is quoted from and there we see for new, chadasha. That is the adjective form of the word that means "to renew." This is a renewed covenant, not new. What is NEW is where the text of the covenant is place, the covenant itself is everlasting.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, and to become as those under the law, meant he was not under law, to become something, means you were not of it prior. Paul was smart, even the frog, if he met a Jewish person tomorrow, and I invited him to dinner in hopes of converting them, I would not serve pork, that is just good common sense, and being wise in evangelism.Good to see ya!

"Under the law" is a reference to ones guilt, not whether or not they 'do not steal.' Being "under grace" means being forgiven, but it is not a license to sin which John defined as "the breaking of the Law." (1 John 3:4). How can sin be breaking a law that no longer exists? Because of Yeshua's work and nothing else, we are no longer under the law, no longer guilty, we are now under grace... forgiven... and part of the family of God!

 

[Ken Rank]

Did you think that the passage I quoted was about the two great commandments of the old covenant? Look again and you will see it was not.

I did just go back to look and thanks for drawing my attention to what I missed. My apologies. That said, if we are only to follow the words he spoke when here (and by the way, the end of John tells us he said so many other things that the world couldn't contain the books that would need to be written) then that explains why many churches are now ok with homosexuality. He didn't mention it... so it must be ok!

 

[Frogster]

No, the problem here is God called the "old covenant" everlasting. (See Psalm 105:8-10 as one example) So how can God call it everlasting and then change it? What has changed, Frogster, is simply the placement of Torah. It was on stone... we had a stoney heart Ezekiel called it. And we are given a heart of flesh... the Law written on the mind and heart as part of the covenant. The law (on stone) acted as a schoolmaster testifying of and leading us to Messiah through whom we ultimately get what was on stone moved to the place we cannot keep it without God putting it there, the heart.

This is backed up in the Greek language. There are two words that are translated as "new" in the NT, nehos and kainos. If you look them up you will find that one means brand new or new in regards to AGE, and the other is new in regards to FRESHNESS. The "new covenant" is always kainos diatheke, which is renewed covenant. That makes sense if God first called it everlasting to begin with. When we go back to the Hebrew (Jeremiah 31:31) we see where Hebrews 8:8 is quoted from and there we see for new, chadasha. That is the adjective form of the word that means "to renew." This is a renewed covenant, not new. What is NEW is where the text of the covenant is place, the covenant itself is everlasting.

Hebrews 13:20 says, the blood of the everlasting Cov, and it was the new cov, the old was abolished. too much NT hard evidence, proves your post wrong.








Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,


Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross

 

[Frogster]

No, the problem here is God called the "old covenant" everlasting. (See Psalm 105:8-10 as one example) So how can God call it everlasting and then change it? What has changed, Frogster, is simply the placement of Torah. It was on stone... we had a stoney heart Ezekiel called it. And we are given a heart of flesh... the Law written on the mind and heart as part of the covenant. The law (on stone) acted as a schoolmaster testifying of and leading us to Messiah through whom we ultimately get what was on stone moved to the place we cannot keep it without God putting it there, the heart.

This is backed up in the Greek language. There are two words that are translated as "new" in the NT, nehos and kainos. If you look them up you will find that one means brand new or new in regards to AGE, and the other is new in regards to FRESHNESS. The "new covenant" is always kainos diatheke, which is renewed covenant. That makes sense if God first called it everlasting to begin with. When we go back to the Hebrew (Jeremiah 31:31) we see where Hebrews 8:8 is quoted from and there we see for new, chadasha. That is the adjective form of the word that means "to renew." This is a renewed covenant, not new. What is NEW is where the text of the covenant is place, the covenant itself is everlasting.

No, the problem here is God called the "old covenant" everlasting. (See Psalm 105:8-10 as one example) So how can God call it everlasting and then change it? What has changed, Frogster, is simply the placement of Torah. It was on stone... we had a stoney heart Ezekiel called it. And we are given a heart of flesh... the Law written on the mind and heart as part of the covenant. The law (on stone) acted as a schoolmaster testifying of and leading us to Messiah through whom we ultimately get what was on stone moved to the place we cannot keep it without God putting it there, the heart.

This is backed up in the Greek language. There are two words that are translated as "new" in the NT, nehos and kainos. If you look them up you will find that one means brand new or new in regards to AGE, and the other is new in regards to FRESHNESS. The "new covenant" is always kainos diatheke, which is renewed covenant. That makes sense if God first called it everlasting to begin with. When we go back to the Hebrew (Jeremiah 31:31) we see where Hebrews 8:8 is quoted from and there we see for new, chadasha. That is the adjective form of the word that means "to renew." This is a renewed covenant, not new. What is NEW is where the text of the covenant is place, the covenant itself is everlasting.

NOT, like the old...

heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I did just go back to look and thanks for drawing my attention to what I missed. My apologies. That said, if we are only to follow the words he spoke when here (and by the way, the end of John tells us he said so many other things that the world couldn't contain the books that would need to be written) then that explains why many churches are now ok with homosexuality. He didn't mention it... so it must be ok!

We all believe that the words of the old covenant are given by God and can make a man wise but they are the words of an old covenant that has vanished to be replaced by a better covenant that is new made in the blood of Christ.

 

[Frogster]

"Under the law" is a reference to ones guilt, not whether or not they 'do not steal.' Being "under grace" means being forgiven, but it is not a license to sin which John defined as "the breaking of the Law." (1 John 3:4). How can sin be breaking a law that no longer exists? Because of Yeshua's work and nothing else, we are no longer under the law, no longer guilty, we are now under grace... forgiven... and part of the family of God!

Roman 6, not under law, and Gal 5:18, not under law, are about the sin law dynamic principle, there is more to law than just guilt. We are not under guilt, it's jurisdiction, or power, the power of sin is the law, 1 Cor 15:56.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hebrews 13:20 says, the blood of the everlasting Cov, and it was the new cov, the old was abolished. too much NT hard evidence, proves your post wrong.


Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,


Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross

Honestly Frogster.... do I go one by one and show you an alternative view that remains consistent and in harmony with ALL of the bible? I can... but you are making it clear that you have no desire to fairly weigh out any answers I give and quite frankly, I don't have much time in the day for posting like this. I mean, if the written code that is canceled is a reference to the Torah, then you just legalized homosexuality because Yeshua doesn't give a command relating to it. So if you really want to hear and weigh some things out against what you have been taught, I will spend as much time sharing what I have come to understand as I can and if we don't agree, so be it. But I won't allow strife to be caused between brethren and I won't waste time trying to convince you or anyone else. You don't need to believe as I do... you follow your convictions and when we stand before Messiah, one or both of us will be corrected and I have no problem being corrected. Peace to you!

Ken

 

[Frogster]

No, the problem here is God called the "old covenant" everlasting. (See Psalm 105:8-10 as one example) So how can God call it everlasting and then change it? What has changed, Frogster, is simply the placement of Torah. It was on stone... we had a stoney heart Ezekiel called it. And we are given a heart of flesh... the Law written on the mind and heart as part of the covenant. The law (on stone) acted as a schoolmaster testifying of and leading us to Messiah through whom we ultimately get what was on stone moved to the place we cannot keep it without God putting it there, the heart.

This is backed up in the Greek language. There are two words that are translated as "new" in the NT, nehos and kainos. If you look them up you will find that one means brand new or new in regards to AGE, and the other is new in regards to FRESHNESS. The "new covenant" is always kainos diatheke, which is renewed covenant. That makes sense if God first called it everlasting to begin with. When we go back to the Hebrew (Jeremiah 31:31) we see where Hebrews 8:8 is quoted from and there we see for new, chadasha. That is the adjective form of the word that means "to renew." This is a renewed covenant, not new. What is NEW is where the text of the covenant is place, the covenant itself is everlasting.

If it were a renewed cov, that would bind the church to all of the laws, and the council meeting of Acts 15, where Peter called the law a yoke the fathers could not bear, and where James said not to trouble the church with law said no circumcision. So it is not "renewed", or the council would have ordered the church to be circumcised, and keep the Old Cov laws. Gal 5:3, if circumcised, one had to keep the law.

 

[Ken Rank]

We all believe that the words of the old covenant are given by God and can make a man wise but they are the words of an old covenant that has vanished to be replaced by a better covenant that is new made in the blood of Christ.

The text is the same, what makes it better is it is being moved from stone to the heart.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

That is what makes it better... the text is no longer to be on stone but rather written on the heart as part of the perfection process that happens when messiah returns.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Frogster]

Honestly Frogster.... do I go one by one and show you an alternative view that remains consistent and in harmony with ALL of the bible? I can... but you are making it clear that you have no desire to fairly weigh out any answers I give and quite frankly, I don't have much time in the day for posting like this. I mean, if the written code that is canceled is a reference to the Torah, then you just legalized homosexuality because Yeshua doesn't give a command relating to it. So if you really want to hear and weigh some things out against what you have been taught, I will spend as much time sharing what I have come to understand as I can and if we don't agree, so be it. But I won't allow strife to be caused between brethren and I won't waste time trying to convince you or anyone else. You don't need to believe as I do... you follow your convictions and when we stand before Messiah, one or both of us will be corrected and I have no problem being corrected. Peace to you!

Ken

Oh come on, Paul used law for the unsaved Rom 1, fine for them, we are not under law, we died to the with Christ rom 7:4, Gal 2:19-20, via the cross, the world did not, they are under judgment.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The text is the same, what makes it better is it is being moved from stone to the heart.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

That is what makes it better... the text is no longer to be on stone but rather written on the heart as part of the perfection process that happens when messiah returns.

Blessings.
Ken

The words are different and the promises are better and this new covenant is everlasting because it will never end.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them*, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(Hebrews 8:7-9 KJV)​

* them being the people of Israel who failed to keep the covenant

 

[Ken Rank]

If it were a renewed cov, that would bind the church to all of the laws, and the council meeting of Acts 15, where Peter called the law a yoke the fathers could not bear, and where James said not to trouble the church with law said no circumcision. So it is not "renewed", or the council would have ordered the church to be circumcised, and keep the Old Cov laws. Gal 5:3, if circumcised, one had to keep the law.

Do you want to hear an different explanation to the Acts 15 letter or are you content with what you currently know? Paul said, "for NOW we see through a glass darkly." NOW, present tense and post resurrection... God tinted the glass, did you ever wonder what might be behind it? If we think we already have every answer, we cannot learn and won't ever see what doesn't fit in our current paradigm.

 

[Steeno7]

The Hebraic mind is less detail oriented and seeks to be one "in function" whereas the Greek mindset is far more detailed and seeks to be more "form" centered. Regarding the detail.... the Hebrew will hear "1 foot" and consider the size of a man's foot. The Greek/Western mind will measure off 12 inches. Regarding form and function... the Hebrew knows he is but a piece in a larger picture and he understands that each piece doesn't need to look, act, or think alike... they just understand that being "one" is in regarding to the grand scheme of things, the larger picture. The Greek leans toward agreement in thought and appearance.... which is why there are 40,000+ denominations and sects. He runs into disagreement and can't handle it, so he divides the body over it. Jesus and the disciples were Jewish, who were raised in a Jewish culture, who used Jewish rules of exegesis (especially Paul), who used idioms and other abstract forms of speech that were unique to the Hebraic mind that we don't even weigh into the context today.

The NT was written primarily, if not completely, in Koine or common Greek, not Hebrew. You fail to delineate the difference between language and culture, and erroneously equate the Greek language with the Greek culture.

 

[Ken Rank]

The words are different and the promises are better and this new covenant is everlasting because it will never end.

Yeshua spoke the words of the Father... the unchanging God.... the words were not new what he did when here was show the spirit behind the letter. Was it enough that we can't sleep with someone who is not our spouse? No... to even LOOK upon a woman in lust is adultery in his eyes. That isn't easier, but that is reality. As for everlasting, I already told you the covenant at Sinai was everlasting. I am willing to discuss anything with anyone, but lets be good students and address valid points.


Psa 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Psa 105:9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
Psa 105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: