Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[MoreCoffee]

He knows more than I do and I haven't seen much christian teachers who could explain from the Old Testament the Trinity to rabbi's.
...

Talk about having a Pope!

Okay, he probably does know more than a lot of folk. Why does that make him reliable as a guide for faith and morals?

 

[Messy]

Talk about having a Pope!

Okay, he probably does know more than a lot of folk. Why does that make him reliable as a guide for faith and morals?

Lol
It's not that I don't test what he says and on morals he doesn't teach different than my pastor. It's just handy if you don't know things. I was on an atheist forum years ago and one atheist told me I had 3 Gods and was a polytheist and I thought: yeah you're right. So then I was totally confused because I didn't go to church at the time and when I did they never taught on it and I looked on Internet and discovered Michael Brown who explained it perfectly and the doubt was gone.

 

[Ken Rank]

Jesus, overcame sin. Let's also not forget that with Jesus overcoming sin, we are now reconciled back to God and have the Holy Spirit inside of us. The Holy Spirit is an integral part of any Christian's life.

Of course, but.... while he was born sinless and died without sin.... we still have the ability to sin, we have not been perfected, yet. The question is then, "What is sin?" And the answer, biblically, is 1 John 3:4.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course, but.... while he was born sinless and died without sin.... we still have the ability to sin, we have not been perfected, yet. The question is then, "What is sin?" And the answer, biblically, is 1 John 3:4.

Lawlessness?

 

[Steeno7]

To me Hebrew roots is when I have no clue anymore I just ask DrBrown, lol.

That's unfortunate and explains a lot.

 

[Steeno7]

He knows more than I do and I haven't seen much christian teachers who could explain from the Old Testament the Trinity to rabbi's.

Oh, he knows the law for sure, and it's good he can explain the Trinity, but he has little to no real understanding of God's grace, and has done much harm to the liberating good news of God's grace.

 

[Steeno7]

He knows more than I do and I haven't seen much christian teachers who could explain from the Old Testament the Trinity to rabbi's.


For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The key thing is the word telos (τέλος). Aside from the fact that it’s ludicrous to think that Paul would contradict himself within the very same letter of careful teaching to the Romans, we have to ask and what is that word telos mean?Telos can mean ‘end’, and telos can also mean ‘goal’.

We get the word telos in telescope and things like that. So what Paul is saying is not that Christ, the messiah, is the end of the law for everyone who believes, so once what you believe in him that terminates the law. No, rather the Messiah is the goal to which the torah is pointing so that everyone who believes in and can be justified.

He’s really saying the same thing in both of those places. By rightly understanding the role of the Torah, and by rightly understanding what the Torah teaches us about faith (being that it establishes the Torah), we see that the Messiah is ultimately the goal to which the Torah is pointing us. Once we take telos and instead of translating it ‘end’ we translate it with ‘goal’, the objection disappears.

By fulfilling the Law Jesus brings to full fruition all that the Law pointed to pictorially and custodially. The externality of conformity to the Law's demands is displaced and replaced by the internality of the presence of Jesus Himself, "the law written in our hearts". Genuine righteousness is not derived from conformity to the Law (Phil. 3:9), but only from God in Christ on the basis of the receptivity of faith.

Yes the Law points us to Jesus, it does not point us back to itself. It leads us to Him so that He can then lead us from within, it does not lead us back to itself. "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal. 3:24-25

 

[Netzari777]

Christians are not followers of Judaism and are not by definition a sect of Rabbinic Judaism.

That has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
For the first 10 to 15 years after the resurrection, virtually ALL of the followers of the Messiah were Jews.
Paul's first missionary journey did not happen before 40CE. Jews did not make a habit of interacting with non-Jews, especially, the more religious. (Acts 10:28)
Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism are not the same thing. However, most of the earliest members of the way would have been practitioners of one or the other. By definition, that would make them a sect. That sect grew. On Shavu'ot it grew by 3,000.

The people gathered there:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

 

[Frogster]

Yes how is that nailed to the cross those two tablets of stone? You can't nail stone to a cross.

If He blotted out His own law then He can't condemn the unrepentant mocker and murderer next to Him on the cross. If that law is now gone then what is testifying against that man that he's a sinner? Where's the rules to judge him with?
The law is still here. If I open my Bible I can still read it. It isn't blotted out. Maybe the tablets of stone are even still in the Ark somewhere.
After Jesus died the law of sin and death was still in Paul's flesh.

The law is spiritual, you can't just kill that.
Romans 8
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

That law of sin and death in his members sounds more like a rule, a natural law: I have to sin, I can't obey God. Flesh can't please God.

I think here's that written thing testifying against us that had to be blotted out:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

no one is saying the actual stones were nailed to the cross, or the actual book of the law.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
For the first 10 to 15 years after the resurrection, virtually ALL of the followers of the Messiah were Jews.
Paul's first missionary journey did not happen before 40CE. Jews did not make a habit of interacting with non-Jews, especially, the more religious. (Acts 10:28)
Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism are not the same thing. However, most of the earliest members of the way would have been practitioners of one or the other. By definition, that would make them a sect. That sect grew. On Shavu'ot it grew by 3,000.

The people gathered there:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

What is the point though? We all have read the bible, so we know who the apostles reached out to. Jesus did say first to the Jew, then to the gentile. I made the point earlier that it didn't matter to me that we were not the first.

 

[Frogster]

So your post is asking how the ministration of death and the ministration of condemnation written on stone can be nailed to the cross because it is stone?

I never heard anyone try to go against Col 2:14, with that reason before, have you? I doubt it, that was something I never heard anyone say before, that it can't be the law, because they did not nail the tablets to the cross.

 

[Frogster]

He knows more than I do and I haven't seen much christian teachers who could explain from the Old Testament the Trinity to rabbi's.


For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The key thing is the word telos (τέλος). Aside from the fact that it’s ludicrous to think that Paul would contradict himself within the very same letter of careful teaching to the Romans, we have to ask and what is that word telos mean?Telos can mean ‘end’, and telos can also mean ‘goal’.

We get the word telos in telescope and things like that. So what Paul is saying is not that Christ, the messiah, is the end of the law for everyone who believes, so once what you believe in him that terminates the law. No, rather the Messiah is the goal to which the torah is pointing so that everyone who believes in and can be justified.

He’s really saying the same thing in both of those places. By rightly understanding the role of the Torah, and by rightly understanding what the Torah teaches us about faith (being that it establishes the Torah), we see that the Messiah is ultimately the goal to which the Torah is pointing us. Once we take telos and instead of translating it ‘end’ we translate it with ‘goal’, the objection disappears.

but the goal was the end, same thing. Once a person hits the goal, the event is over, please mull that over, my dear sis.
The law was UNTIL Christ, Gal 3:19.

 

[Frogster]

Yes that too, sorry I tend to visualise things and take it literal and then it makes no sense. Moses threw them on the ground so they broke but he couldn't red rid of the law that way. It's spiritual.
The 10 commandments still count otherwise all killers that keep rejecting Jesus have nothing to be judged by if there is no law anymore.
And you can't say that only counts for those who accept His offer because if you do and keep living in wilfull sin Paul says you won't inherit the Kingdom.

And we still have some written law that we have to obey.
Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

Paul later said eat everything in the Corinth meat market, that was idol meat, unclean stuff, and pork.

But no, I personally don't want to partake of the cultic union practices of that day, in which a lot of the wordage is about.

 

[Frogster]

That has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
For the first 10 to 15 years after the resurrection, virtually ALL of the followers of the Messiah were Jews.
Paul's first missionary journey did not happen before 40CE. Jews did not make a habit of interacting with non-Jews, especially, the more religious. (Acts 10:28)
Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism are not the same thing. However, most of the earliest members of the way would have been practitioners of one or the other. By definition, that would make them a sect. That sect grew. On Shavu'ot it grew by 3,000.

The people gathered there:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Red above, Acts 10, was not 15 years later, when gentiles came in.

 

[Frogster]

people were talking about how somehow the old cov is forever, but the text says grace is for all ages, and through the church, not Israel, not an old abolished cov, that lost it's glory, the glory is in the church forever.


Eoh 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


Eph 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen

 

[Frogster]

So in your opinion Christianity has the bible all wrong?

I believe you got it right! On target! That is a belief in the MJ movement with plenty of it's members.

 

[Netzari777]

What is the point though? We all have read the bible, so we know who the apostles reached out to. Jesus did say first to the Jew, then to the gentile. I made the point earlier that it didn't matter to me that we were not the first.

You're missing the whole point of the conversation. Perhaps you should read some more of the posts.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You're missing the whole point of the conversation. Perhaps you should read some more of the posts.

I've been reading these posts all along, but thank you for your concern.

 

[Netzari777]

I've been reading these posts all along, but thank you for your concern.

It's not a concern. You said you didn't get it.

The followers of the Messiah were almost all Jews.

By definition, that is a sect of Judaism.

Yeshua said He was the prophet from the Torah.

Without knowing the Torah, how would someone be able to confirm or deny that fact?

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's not a concern. You said you didn't get it.

The followers of the Messiah were almost all Jews.

By definition, that is a sect of Judaism.

Yeshua said He was the prophet from the Torah.

Without knowing the Torah, how would someone be able to confirm or deny that fact?

Since the Torah is the first 5 books of the bible, I think that Christians indeed understand and have studied the Torah as you call it.

I hope that this puts into perspective for you what most Christians do in fact know and understand. If you have further questions about Christianity, feel free to ask us and not make statements that assume a lack of knowledge.