ive heard a lot about how its necessary to have a hebraic mindset when studying the scriptures. would anyone care to tell me how this can be achieved?
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Hebraic mindset
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ChavaK
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I'm interested too, because I don't think a "Hebraic mindset" exists. It's seems to be something coined by the Messianic community.
I'm looking forward to the responses.
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Although the terminology is BS, it just simply means to understand the mind set of the prophets. The prophets were very much into parables and riddles. It is not a lost cause though, because the scriptures interpret themselves. It also helps to know about biblical history.
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yes you do lol to me it means knowing what different terms means or meant rather to the folks of that day...maybe we can give him some examples
when someone says the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed as Peter betrayed Jesus/Yeshua for instance
What was the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse](it wasnt a rooster as they were not to be found around the temple)
It was the Priest who woke at first light and announced the opening of the temple doors
how do we know well I dont have it right in front of me but others may, but there are no roosters or chickens anywhere near the temple as they could easily get inside and they are not clean animals and could bring their chicken do do mess into the temple with them,..... no the guy who called out that the temple is open did that everyday, that was his duty and he was doing that at the moment Peter said for the third time he didnt know Jesus
there are other examples too.....
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M
MikhaelDavid
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Ah I get it... It is what is said in my circles but without the same name. We either call it cultural contextualizing or "What did it mean to such and such in those days".
Example we would use (without getting into any debate on the subject on this thread), What did the word Hymn mean in the days of Paul and not what it means now. And How was the Psalter called thus by using a Triadic Expression of the Hebrew Culture, Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs" or another Triadic Expression such as "Sign, Wonders, and Miracles".. So thinking Hebraic Culturally for contextual interpretations of scriptures...
Michael
Example we would use (without getting into any debate on the subject on this thread), What did the word Hymn mean in the days of Paul and not what it means now. And How was the Psalter called thus by using a Triadic Expression of the Hebrew Culture, Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs" or another Triadic Expression such as "Sign, Wonders, and Miracles".. So thinking Hebraic Culturally for contextual interpretations of scriptures...
Michael
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
It can also be Western: I think therefore I am
Against the Eastern: I do therefore I am.
A "right mindset" needs both, one without the other is useless.
In fact, it should be "I hear, I understand, I think, and I do, therefore Ii am."
Missing any of those steps can spell disaster
Against the Eastern: I do therefore I am.
A "right mindset" needs both, one without the other is useless.
In fact, it should be "I hear, I understand, I think, and I do, therefore Ii am."
Missing any of those steps can spell disaster
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cyberlizard
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i think what you'll find is that people who talk about an Hebraic mindset as opposed to a Greek one, really mean something akin to the difference between abstract ideas (a typically philosophical way of thinking) used by many early church leaders which pulls much of its styles of thinking and interpreting the scriptures from an almost platonic line of reasoning, to that of an touchy feely, down to earth, this present age, not pie in the sky abstraction which as someone says is the route of the Prophets. More here and now, less pie in the sky.
Steve
p.s. some on here will say the Hebraic thinking vs Greek thinking idea is a lot of nonsense, but all you have to do is read the early church teachings after 200ce or so and you'll see what I mean. Its all about fitting God into a box so we can attempt to pigeon hole and understand something we will never understand.
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Technically it is simple, good exegesis. Faced with a text one needs to read it in context and cross reference it to other, related texts. Then the question that one needs to address is: why did that writer, at that time, feel it was so important to write that particular part of scripture, as opposed to all that other detail that is NOT recorded in scripture.
One needs to deal with these things in the light of some knowledge about Biblical Judaism, society as it was in the set time frame and, if you are able, some knowledge of Biblical Hebrew.
This applies, of course, just as much to Greek as it does to Hebrew. In fact, probably more so with Greek because the Hebrew has been translated into Greek and some of the meaning is lost in the translation (no it's not just the title of a film!). Now some will, no doubt, say that the latter testament was written in Greek but that is not necessarily so, as the vast majority of academics will tell you. Much of it was penned by scribes, though dictated by Paul, or Timothy or whatever, possibly in their native tongue, and so the scribe uses his Greek thought to translate it. This is really where having that 'Hebrew mindset' comes into play: it means that if, and only if, one has a good understanding of the earlier testament will one ever understand the latter testament in all its glory!
One cannot simple remove the earlier testament from the Bible and go just with the latter. That is what I call loose leaf believers - they tear out the pages they don't like and keep the rest or... it is like eating a toffee with the wrapper still firmly in place - you may get a sense of the flavour but you'll never know the whole flavour unless you unwrap it before eating it!
One needs to deal with these things in the light of some knowledge about Biblical Judaism, society as it was in the set time frame and, if you are able, some knowledge of Biblical Hebrew.
This applies, of course, just as much to Greek as it does to Hebrew. In fact, probably more so with Greek because the Hebrew has been translated into Greek and some of the meaning is lost in the translation (no it's not just the title of a film!). Now some will, no doubt, say that the latter testament was written in Greek but that is not necessarily so, as the vast majority of academics will tell you. Much of it was penned by scribes, though dictated by Paul, or Timothy or whatever, possibly in their native tongue, and so the scribe uses his Greek thought to translate it. This is really where having that 'Hebrew mindset' comes into play: it means that if, and only if, one has a good understanding of the earlier testament will one ever understand the latter testament in all its glory!
One cannot simple remove the earlier testament from the Bible and go just with the latter. That is what I call loose leaf believers - they tear out the pages they don't like and keep the rest or... it is like eating a toffee with the wrapper still firmly in place - you may get a sense of the flavour but you'll never know the whole flavour unless you unwrap it before eating it!
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
That's right!! There is sooo much to be learned in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Just as a for instance: churchianities' views on the adulterous woman, what happened to Annias and Sapphira, the water and the blood flowing from Yeshua all line up beautifully to Torah teachings. Instead, the traditional Christian is given really bad teachings on these things.
They are busy building a house with no sure foundation. Rather than do the work, they lead people to believe the MJ's are leaning on their "works" and they couldn't be further from the reality of the truth. It IS the grace of Hashem that allows us to even delve into that daunting Book!! Without the faith which comes by grace we Gentiles wouldn't have the first idea that the Temple we are even has a foundation already laid and waiting, and the Jews wouldn't have a clue that the Temple rebuilding has begun on that old, sturdy, sure foundation!!
Just as a for instance: churchianities' views on the adulterous woman, what happened to Annias and Sapphira, the water and the blood flowing from Yeshua all line up beautifully to Torah teachings. Instead, the traditional Christian is given really bad teachings on these things.
They are busy building a house with no sure foundation. Rather than do the work, they lead people to believe the MJ's are leaning on their "works" and they couldn't be further from the reality of the truth. It IS the grace of Hashem that allows us to even delve into that daunting Book!! Without the faith which comes by grace we Gentiles wouldn't have the first idea that the Temple we are even has a foundation already laid and waiting, and the Jews wouldn't have a clue that the Temple rebuilding has begun on that old, sturdy, sure foundation!!
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dvd_holc
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hebraic mindset?
The bible is a cultural conditioned book. When you read it, you have to understand the setting it is within. You have to understand the people; their worldview, how it functioned, what were the expectations, etc...
Moreover,there are two distinct ways of thinking that people use to process life; western and eastern world views. A person is not restrained from using either viewpoint or limited to ability to comprehend just one viewpoint; however, a person will lean toward expressing and processing data to a particular style.
Western thinking is heavily influenced through the Greeks. Greek thinking is in words, ideas, or logical definitions that abstract the object of concern from its environment to determine what an object is and how/why the object functions. A western thinker compiles lists of truth an outline form: A1) B1) C1) C2) C3). The western thought process would say that something is true because of truth 1, truth 2, truth 3, etc.
To the western thinker, it is the rational part of their thinking that is important. Consequently, the rational part of the thinking will be abstracted from emotions so that logic will not be hindered. The western viewpoint would describe God in attributes such as Perfect, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience. If a person tried to image the definitions (Perfect, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience) a person would have trouble seeing the definition. This can be summed in the question to ask is how does this work?
On the other hand, eastern thinking would express truth in word-picture, story, or metaphor which would keep the object of concern in relationship with its environment. The effect is that the concept would not only provoke rational thought but also would provoke imagery that can be physically seen, touch, taste, smelled, and heard to develop an emotional/spiritual bond. So then, the eastern viewpoint would describe an object in such a way that empathizes what is the identity an object of concern, what an object does, and what is the relationship of the object with its environment.
Now, the eastern viewpoint would describe God as Eagle’s Wings, Honey, Rock, Living Water, Shepherd, Bread, Shade, Fortress, Father, etc. So then, Living Water would provoke the images of a river, stream, or rain, and a person can experience Living Water. Another example: On a hot day, a man worked hard in the field and became thirsty. When the man went to a well to get a drink, a teacher spoke to the man and said, “God is Living Water that restores your life.” The man would not only know something about God but he is developing an emotional bond with God. This can be summed up in the questions, “Who are you and what are you doing here?”
To the Greek, he would list truth in prose. To the Hebrew, he would speak in poetry.
To the western mindset, truth is fixed and static, and it never will change. To the eastern mindset, truth develops like a child is created, born, and matures into adult then marriage then a parent then elder.
To the western mindset, numbers are quantities. To the eastern mindset, numbers are symbols or symbolic.
To the Greek, faith is intelligential; whereas, to the Hebrew, faith being relational.
The height of Greek education is for a student to know what the teacher knows. The height of a Hebrew education is for a student to become what the teacher is.
In Greek thought, it is what you think that is wrong. In Hebrew thought, it is what you do that is wrong.
The Greek focuses on the individual. The Hebrew focuses upon the community or group.
Now, there are some definitions or word-pictures that can be used as both relational and be used to describe attributes. For instance, God is Love verses God loves us. Both can be seen in concrete actions in life, but one is how He acts and what God is verse another being the relationship of God to mankind.
The authors of the bible were rooted in the Hebraic culture which was an eastern culture and had an eastern mindset. This did not prevent the message of the faithful from meeting the needs of the audience; however, this places the bible in the viewpoint of concrete imagery to describe relational biblical truths. When the followers of Jesus were sent into the world, they articulated their eastern viewpoints to a multicultural audience. Neither viewpoint is wrong, but the challenge is to understand and do each viewpoint effectively.
The bible is a cultural conditioned book. When you read it, you have to understand the setting it is within. You have to understand the people; their worldview, how it functioned, what were the expectations, etc...
Moreover,there are two distinct ways of thinking that people use to process life; western and eastern world views. A person is not restrained from using either viewpoint or limited to ability to comprehend just one viewpoint; however, a person will lean toward expressing and processing data to a particular style.
Western thinking is heavily influenced through the Greeks. Greek thinking is in words, ideas, or logical definitions that abstract the object of concern from its environment to determine what an object is and how/why the object functions. A western thinker compiles lists of truth an outline form: A1) B1) C1) C2) C3). The western thought process would say that something is true because of truth 1, truth 2, truth 3, etc.
To the western thinker, it is the rational part of their thinking that is important. Consequently, the rational part of the thinking will be abstracted from emotions so that logic will not be hindered. The western viewpoint would describe God in attributes such as Perfect, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience. If a person tried to image the definitions (Perfect, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience) a person would have trouble seeing the definition. This can be summed in the question to ask is how does this work?
On the other hand, eastern thinking would express truth in word-picture, story, or metaphor which would keep the object of concern in relationship with its environment. The effect is that the concept would not only provoke rational thought but also would provoke imagery that can be physically seen, touch, taste, smelled, and heard to develop an emotional/spiritual bond. So then, the eastern viewpoint would describe an object in such a way that empathizes what is the identity an object of concern, what an object does, and what is the relationship of the object with its environment.
Now, the eastern viewpoint would describe God as Eagle’s Wings, Honey, Rock, Living Water, Shepherd, Bread, Shade, Fortress, Father, etc. So then, Living Water would provoke the images of a river, stream, or rain, and a person can experience Living Water. Another example: On a hot day, a man worked hard in the field and became thirsty. When the man went to a well to get a drink, a teacher spoke to the man and said, “God is Living Water that restores your life.” The man would not only know something about God but he is developing an emotional bond with God. This can be summed up in the questions, “Who are you and what are you doing here?”
To the Greek, he would list truth in prose. To the Hebrew, he would speak in poetry.
To the western mindset, truth is fixed and static, and it never will change. To the eastern mindset, truth develops like a child is created, born, and matures into adult then marriage then a parent then elder.
To the western mindset, numbers are quantities. To the eastern mindset, numbers are symbols or symbolic.
To the Greek, faith is intelligential; whereas, to the Hebrew, faith being relational.
The height of Greek education is for a student to know what the teacher knows. The height of a Hebrew education is for a student to become what the teacher is.
In Greek thought, it is what you think that is wrong. In Hebrew thought, it is what you do that is wrong.
The Greek focuses on the individual. The Hebrew focuses upon the community or group.
Now, there are some definitions or word-pictures that can be used as both relational and be used to describe attributes. For instance, God is Love verses God loves us. Both can be seen in concrete actions in life, but one is how He acts and what God is verse another being the relationship of God to mankind.
The authors of the bible were rooted in the Hebraic culture which was an eastern culture and had an eastern mindset. This did not prevent the message of the faithful from meeting the needs of the audience; however, this places the bible in the viewpoint of concrete imagery to describe relational biblical truths. When the followers of Jesus were sent into the world, they articulated their eastern viewpoints to a multicultural audience. Neither viewpoint is wrong, but the challenge is to understand and do each viewpoint effectively.
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David Ben Yosef
Foundation In Torah
Although some very good points have been made thus far, there's still much more to it. A person who has been raised in an Orthodox Jewish community thinks completely different from one who has been raised in an Christian environment. I suggested in another thread where this issue was brought up, to read a paper authored by Timm Hegg to get a good grasp on the difference between an Hebraic mindset, and a Greek mindset. There are two pages to the articles, so here's both of the links:
MY BIG FAT GREEK MINDSET - PART ONE
MY BIG FAT GREEK MINDSET - PART TWO
Enjoy!
Shalom
MY BIG FAT GREEK MINDSET - PART ONE
MY BIG FAT GREEK MINDSET - PART TWO
Enjoy!
Shalom
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Although some very good points have been made thus far, there's still much more to it. A person who has been raised in an Orthodox Jewish community thinks completely different from one who has been raised in an Christian environment. I suggested in another thread where this issue was brought up, to read a paper authored by Timm Hegg to get a good grasp on the difference between an Hebraic mindset, and a Greek mindset. There are two pages to the articles, so here's both of the links:
MY BIG FAT GREEK MINDSET - PART ONE
MY BIG FAT GREEK MINDSET - PART TWO
Enjoy!
Shalom
I just finished this paper of Hegg's. I really enjoy his articles and agree with most of what he has to say.
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The hebraic thinking is that all things work on a cyclical nature and greek or humanistic thinks on a linear time. When the Psalms says lead me in your paths, paths can be shown as cycles, we may not get it the first time around or even the third but eventually we see what we are supposed to see or taught. Just another way to see it.
Heres a series of articles that seem to help some understand the differences.
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David Ben Yosef
Foundation In Torah
Yeah, Tim did a pretty good job in this instance. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It really is imperative to change our worldview in order to properly interpret the NT writings.
I've just begun a study of Hebrew idioms [or Hebraisms...whichever you prefer]. I want to compile an exhaustive list.
Shalom
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Yeah, Tim did a pretty good job in this instance. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It really is imperative to change our worldview in order to properly interpret the NT writings.
I've just begun a study of Hebrew idioms [or Hebraisms...whichever you prefer]. I want to compile an exhaustive list.
Shalom
That will be interesting. Hope you share it.
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cyberlizard
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I've got that book... Tim gave me a PDF version so I did not have to write notes on the pages... thanks Tim.
Steve
p.s. I prefer that book over and above the books on Paul by Tom Wright.
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The Greeks and other Gentile nations also believed in cyclical thought. There is evidence to suggest that they may have even believed it first!
Moreover:
"[SIZE=-1]The cyclic view of history, both cosmic and human, has been prevalent among the Hindus and the pre-Christian Greeks, the Chinese, and the Aztecs. More recently, [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]the cyclic view has gained adherents in modern Western society, although this civilization was originally Christian--that is, was nurtured on a religion that sees time as a one-way flow and not as a cyclic one.[/SIZE][SIZE=+2][/SIZE]" From here.
Even a Wiki mentions this:
"Most ancient cultures held a mythical conception of history and time that was not linear. They believed that history was cyclical with alternating Dark and Golden Ages. Plato called this the Great Year, and other Greeks called it an aeon or eon. Examples are the ancient doctrine of eternal return, which existed in Ancient Egypt, the Indian religions, or the GreekPythagoreans' and the Stoics' conceptions. In The Works and Days, HesiodAges of Man: the Gold Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, the Heroic Age and the Iron Age, which began with the Dorian invasion. Other scholars suggest there were just four ages, corresponding to the four metals, and the Heroic age was a description of the Bronze Age. A four age count would be in line with the Vedic or Hindu ages known as the Kali, Dwapara, Treta and Satya yugas. The Greeks believed that just as mankind went through four stages of character during each rise and fall of history so did government. They considered democracy and monarchy as the healthy regimes of the higher ages; and oligarchy and tyranny as corrupted regimes common to the lower ages. described five In the East cyclical theories of history were developed in China (as a theory of dynastic cycle) and in the Islamic world by Ibn Khaldun."
From here.
I'm sure Heber can confirm this, as he would have had to study philosophy in seminary too.
This is why I have never been able to accept the recent trend of teaching that says there is a "Hebrew mindset" that is the opposite of the so-called "Greek mindset".
However, I am interested in designing and marketing a "Hebraic Mind-set". I think they could be put on the shelves of stores for around $299 or thereabouts, near the Meccano sets and train sets. We will need to work on the technology side a little more though. Maybe by next Christmas.
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Whilst I could never agree to using Wiki for academic debate and discussions (what would my students think?), the general direction of CM's comments I can agree with. Most of the philosophy I did at College was Philosophy of Religion (and Sociology of Religion), as such. My daughter studied philosophy as a pure subject for her A levels, and leaves me behind when she gets deep into it; it was a long time ago that I first sat in a Theolog College!
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