Heaven?

Hi all,

What is heaven to you?

Heaven sounds good to me but seems to have some problems, first of all it seems to good to be true, not that that it means it isn't real of course.

But another problem I find is that if heaven has time then as billions of years go by eventually you will remember your earthly life and any past events less and less almost as if you stop them being part of you. I say this not because of bad memory, but because you wont have the time to remember all the billion things in your past. Do you agree/ disagree?

Also wouldn't you want an end at some point? Not because of bordom, but just because infinite life is so unending, when I try to imagine it it seems I wouldn't want to want to be in pure joy for a billion billion years and yet be doing the same sort of thing unendingly forever.

Then if heaven is timeless it would mean that in some sense you existed 'before' you were born and that 2 of your exist right now.

So in a way I want heaven, yet I have problems with it.

Thanks

darknova said:

Then if heaven is timeless it would mean that in some sense you existed 'before' you were born and that 2 of your exist right now.

So in a way I want heaven, yet I have problems with it.

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"Problems," yes! We don't even really have much of an idea of what we will be like ... did you know the Bible never says we will "go to heaven?" I think far too much closure has been allowed to creep into Church teaching ...

razeontherock said:

"Problems," yes! We don't even really have much of an idea of what we will be like ... did you know the Bible never says we will "go to heaven?" I think far too much closure has been allowed to creep into Church teaching ...

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A new heaven and new earth then? It does seem to speak of some sort of existance beyond death don't you think?

Much more Biblical terms you're using now. Thanks! I find it interesting that some people take what we have in Scripture and make solid observations, while others make wild speculations. G-d has certainly shown me a lot of things, but nothing at all about the afterlife, next life, or however you might like to think of it.

darknova said:

Hi all,
What is heaven to you?

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Heaven is where those who seek God will eventually find Him. Heaven is less of a place, and more about presents (God's)

Heaven sounds good to me but seems to have some problems, first of all it seems to good to be true, not that that it means it isn't real of course.

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If it sounds to good to be true then chances are you are focusing on the wrong aspects of it.

But another problem I find is that if heaven has time then as billions of years go by eventually you will remember your earthly life and any past events less and less almost as if you stop them being part of you. I say this not because of bad memory, but because you wont have the time to remember all the billion things in your past. Do you agree/ disagree?

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If you lived into physical/physiological maturity, then you might be able to compare your experiences now with that of what Heaven might be. For example, How much time have you spent pinning over your first teddy bear? How many times have you revisited your first play date? Have you ever felt remorse for not being able to spend any more time in preschool? Why is that?? I would guess it is because as you get older and as you mature, life continues on, and your current life is not dictated by the "billions of things in your past." Your life may be directed by your past, but your past does not exclusively control your future. Not unless want it to. In other words you are (as are the rest of us) busy living life. The past has it's place, and it is in our past. Not controlling our future

Also wouldn't you want an end at some point? Not because of boredom, but just because infinite life is so unending, when I try to imagine it it seems I wouldn't want to want to be in pure joy for a billion billion years and yet be doing the same sort of thing unendingly forever.

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In the seventy or so years most of us think we are entitled to, how many view it as a prison sentence? How many willing choose to end their lives on any given day? I'm not say people don't, but more people choose life and hang on to every scrap we have been allotted, than choose to end their lives. Even in the worst living conditions.
Why do you think that is?
The next question in that if we choose life each and every day, then what makes you think we would choose death on a given day in heaven?

Then if heaven is timeless it would mean that in some sense you existed 'before' you were born and that 2 of your exist right now.

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Heaven is not timeless. God created Heaven when He created earth. Therefore you very much like the rest of creation has a born on date, and an expiration date. (This includes Heaven and The Earth.)

So in a way I want heaven, yet I have problems with it.

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Why do you want Heaven? is it because you fear Hell? Do you want Heaven Because you fear the unknown? Do you view it as your only option?

If so you will continue to find problems with heaven even if you were allowed in. Again if you view heaven as a place or some great reward then you will eventually find the disappointment that you have forecasted.

Do you love God? Do you want to be Jesus?
If you do then Heaven (No matter what it looks like) will be, just that. Heaven.

I often ask those trying to grasp the concept of Heaven, If the descriptions for Heaven and Hell were some how reversed back in time, and Heaven was a Fiery pit but God was there, and Hell is what we know to be paradise then would you still want to goto Heaven? (The fiery pit)

-Or-

Does Hell start looking a little bit better?

If you choose Heaven because it sounds like a nicer place to live than what we think of when Hell is described, then I would think that you will not be content there. Unless you learn to Love God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit, and Physical strength.

How does one learn this?

We ask God to teach us like in Luke 11:

5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[e] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

We Ask through prayer, we seek in the bible and in places like church and this forum, we knock by repeating this process until we get what our hearts want.

drich0150 said:

If you lived into physical/physiological maturity, then you might be able to compare your experiences now with that of what Heaven might be. For example, How much time have you spent pinning over your first teddy bear? How many times have you revisited your first play date? Have you ever felt remorse for not being able to spend any more time in preschool? Why is that?? I would guess it is because as you get older and as you mature, life continues on, and your current life is not dictated by the "billions of things in your past." Your life may be directed by your past, but your past does not exclusively control your future. Not unless want it to. In other words you are (as are the rest of us) busy living life. The past has it's place, and it is in our past. Not controlling our future

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Makes sense

In the seventy or so years most of us think we are entitled to, how many view it as a prison sentence? How many willing choose to end their lives on any given day? I'm not say people don't, but more people choose life and hang on to every scrap we have been allotted, than choose to end their lives. Even in the worst living conditions.
Why do you think that is?
The next question in that if we choose life each and every day, then what makes you think we would choose death on a given day in heaven?

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Also a good point, but I don't know if I would want eternal life on earth, but longer then 70 years.

Why do you want Heaven? is it because you fear Hell? Do you want Heaven Because you fear the unknown? Do you view it as your only option?

If so you will continue to find problems with heaven even if you were allowed in. Again if you view heaven as a place or some great reward then you will eventually find the disappointment that you have forecasted.

Do you love God? Do you want to be Jesus?
If you do then Heaven (No matter what it looks like) will be, just that. Heaven.

I often ask those trying to grasp the concept of Heaven, If the descriptions for Heaven and Hell were some how reversed back in time, and Heaven was a Fiery pit but God was there, and Hell is what we know to be paradise then would you still want to goto Heaven? (The fiery pit)

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Easy question to ask, a little harder to answer. When I was a stonger Christian it would be because I loved God.

Also a good point, but I don't know if I would want eternal life on earth, but longer then 70 years.

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We have a fighting spirit within us that struggles for survival, even if our mind is telling us how cr*ppy situations appear. I would guess we would always have a sensibility that we could get through the next step.

In the past we have had to be resilient over unjust oppression, lack, violence... imagine if the threats were not there. I don't think endless joy is guaranteed, but people tend to describe heaven that way.

Look at the size of the earth, and how many places airplanes will land. There's so much space in between that is barely explored. Then look at Earth in relation to the solar system, and universe. There is probably more variety than it appears from a distance.

As for things to do, how many things can you think of to do during a day? We never have enough time to try all the things we'd like to learn. Imagine what the seemingly boundless universe holds.

Without being limited by a human body, the spirit's movement is probably more than walking through doors. There might be easy transport from planet to planet. Maybe even assignments to work on if we get restless, where individuals still in temporal realms need some help.

This isn't scriptural, but notice how researchers are finding pyramids remains with the same dimensions all over the globe. Some attribute it to aliens, but what if God had assignments like that for us in our eternal state? Delivering solutions to individuals who needed help. Just a thought, not documented.


I wouldn't want to want to be in pure joy for a billion billion years and yet be doing the same sort of thing unendingly forever.

Also a good point, but I don't know if I would want eternal life on earth, but longer then 70 years.

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If you make it to your target year, in good health ask yourself what month would you choose to die, what day, what hour, what min.. Once you are face to face with death, life will always seem to be the better choice. If this is true now, how much more so will it be true when we are face to face with the one we love with all of our being?

We count time because we are bound to it. When we are with God time will have little meaning. That why we are compared to a vapor, here one minute and gone the next. To us a vapor's existence is short and brief when compared to our life span. The same holds true when you compare your life span to eternity. This life has one purpose, and that is to prove to yourself in whom you love more. God or whatever self serving philosophy one wants to worship. The actual business of living doesn't happen till after this life is over.

Easy question to ask, a little harder to answer. When I was a stronger Christian it would be because I loved God.

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We are told in 1Co 13 that love is many different things none of which indicates that our love (True scriptural love) can be simply turned off.


4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Your 10 points or arguments would indicate to me that there wasn't any scriptural love in your previous relationship. Because as Paul indicated Love Never Fails, but "knowledge" will indeed pass away. Which again to me is what seems to have happened to your faith.

To understand what Paul speaks of when he says love, you must understand that the broad term that we use in English actually describes 4 types or kinds of "love." Agape, Eros, Philia, Storge. When Paul speak of God/love He is not referring to an emotion or a warm fuzzy experience (Eros.) Paul specifically out lined this gift of love and how to identify it in the passage I left you. You should know this type of love is not a product of our own efforts. It is a a gift of the Holy Spirit. If you wish to love like that then Ask, Seek, and knock for the Spirit. As the previous passage I left for you in Luke directs us to do.

I think living forever does sound like it would get boring, and actually it might even be a fate like being in hell, if there was really nothing to do forever and ever but you had to exist. (I am thinking that that's what hell is, but that's a topic for another thread).

I think that boredom, not having an absolute sense of peace and rest, discontent and so on might be a consequence of humanity's separation from God just as much as evil and (worse forms of) suffering are. So, if that's true, we have never experienced what it's like not to be separated from God, and that's why we think that heaven will be boring. So we think heaven will be boring because we have never experienced what it's like to not be separated from God in the 'boredom-lack-of-peace-discontent' area. Here are some good verses on the topic:

1 Cor 2:9: "However, as it is written: 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him'"

Romans 14:17: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit".

Psalm 16:11: "You will make clear to me the way of life; where you are joy is complete; in your right hand there are pleasures for ever and ever."

Psalm 36:7-8: "How precious is your unfailing love, O God! All humanity finds shelter in the shadow of your wings. You feed them from the abundance of your own house, letting them drink from your river of delights. For you are the fountain of life, the light by which we see."

Rom 8:18: "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us."

darknova said:

So in a way I want heaven, yet I have problems with it.

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Why would you want to spend an eternity worshipping and serving somebody you've spent your entire life rebelling against?

Thanks for your replies everyone

Bro_Sam said:

Why would you want to spend an eternity worshipping and serving somebody you've spent your entire life rebelling against?

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Probably because I havn't because I was a strong Christian for most of my life.

darknova said:

Thanks for your replies everyone



Probably because I haven't because I was a strong Christian for most of my life.

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...Again maybe this is why you have been left to wander on your proclaimed "strength." (Maybe this is why your "strong" faith has failed you.) To show you:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

Where we see strength God only sees weakness and failing. It is through our weakness that our faith is strong in God. In other words the more fervently you proclaim strength in your "Christianity" the further you place yourself from the God of the bible. God, in-turn Christianity is not about strength, and pride, but meekness and Humility.

If you want to know God humble yourself before Him and allow Him to lift you up. If you wish to continue to put distance between yourself and God then stand proudly before Him and proclaim your great faith, again and again.

drich0150 said:

Where we see strength God only sees weakness and failing. It is through our weakness that our faith is strong in God. In other words the more fervently you proclaim strength in your "Christianity" the further you place yourself from the God of the bible. God, in-turn Christianity is not about strength, and pride, but meekness and Humility.

If you want to know God humble yourself before Him and allow Him to lift you up. If you wish to continue to put distance between yourself and God then stand proudly before Him and proclaim your great faith, again and again.

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Its interesting how you assume this more negative definition of how I use the word strong. When I say strong Christian I don't mean to say that I am a strong person or that I have amazing person or that I am better than most others, because this is not what I mean.

I used the word strong to help show other here like you that I know the basics of faith, such as no one being righteous and to be humble and love the Lord with all our being. I used the word not to boast, such would show I wasn't a strong Christian, but so that you knew I wasn't some Sunday Christian who doesn't know what it is really like to live with God.

darknova said:

Thanks for your replies everyone



Probably because I havn't because I was a strong Christian for most of my life.

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What happened to your faith? The denomination icon says you are a "seeker." What is that exactly? What are you seeking spiritually?

darknova said:

Its interesting how you assume this more negative definition of how I use the word strong. When I say strong Christian I don't mean to say that I am a strong person or that I have amazing person or that I am better than most others, because this is not what I mean.

I used the word strong to help show other here like you that I know the basics of faith, such as no one being righteous and to be humble and love the Lord with all our being. I used the word not to boast, such would show I wasn't a strong Christian, but so that you knew I wasn't some Sunday Christian who doesn't know what it is really like to live with God.

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In my experience the less I am willing to admit I know about christianity, the stronger others see me to be. This is also what Paul tells us about or faith as well.

I honestly get why you posted what you said about your faith. You were looking to skip over all of the elementary or pre-bible school answers that would have you look at yourself from the beginning. The problem I am trying to point out with that is, If you are not willing to humbly shake yourself down (or walk through elementary examination of your faith) and honestly look at your short comings then you are not the person the person who you think yourself to be. (Before God anyway.)

Having biblical faith, and knowing the tenements of religion any religion including christianity, are two very different things.

Christ Himself outlines this principle in His dealings of the Pharisees. They knew of their religion well, but they knew nothing of God. So you see it is possible to be strong christian Steeped in religion, and still know nothing of God.

So being a "strong christian" doesn't make you a strong Christian.

darknova said:

Thanks for your replies everyone



Probably because I havn't because I was a strong Christian for most of my life.

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If you were a strong Christian, then that would be reflected in your words and your beliefs.

sacerdote said:

What happened to your faith? The denomination icon says you are a "seeker." What is that exactly? What are you seeking spiritually?

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Intellectual doubt got in and made me wonder if it was all in my head. I would compare it to falling and having nothing to grab on to though trying to.

By seeker I suppose it means I want God to be real and Jesus to be the full expression of Him. As I lost faith I saw more and more the great potential of Christianity as I was freed from my conservative background and assumptions, and so if I can be convinced that Jesus died and rose again I would be very very happy because i would return to my good friend.

drich0150 said:

In my experience the less I am willing to admit I know about christianity, the stronger others see me to be. This is also what Paul tells us about or faith as well.

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It seems to me the more I learn the less I know.

I honestly get why you posted what you said about your faith. You were looking to skip over all of the elementary or pre-bible school answers that would have you look at yourself from the beginning. The problem I am trying to point out with that is, If you are not willing to humbly shake yourself down (or walk through elementary examination of your faith) and honestly look at your short comings then you are not the person the person who you think yourself to be. (Before God anyway.)

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If I examine the foundation of my faith it is a deep and not a shallow thing and that I have no problem with.

Having biblical faith, and knowing the tenements of religion any religion including christianity, are two very different things.

So being a "strong christian" doesn't make you a strong Christian.

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I agree. I'm not simply saying I knew alot, because I didn't and still don't, but I can genuinely say I loved and followed God.

Bro_Sam said:

If you were a strong Christian, then that would be reflected in your words and your beliefs.

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It would indeed and it did. Are you just making that statement or saying that from my current words and beliefs you don't think I was a strong Christian?

darknova said:

It would indeed and it did. Are you just making that statement or saying that from my current words and beliefs you don't think I was a strong Christian?

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I'm saying that your claim is illogical and cannot be reconciled with scripture.

Bro_Sam said:

I'm saying that your claim is illogical and cannot be reconciled with scripture.

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I don't think it goes against logic but I see how it could go against your interpretation, TULIP, Perseverance of Saints I assume?

darknova said:

It seems to me the more I learn the less I know.

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This is an example of humility. If you would only believe it, then you could tap into faith. Just how much do you think a person can learn in his short lifetime compared to the knowledge God possesses, creates, defines, and even allocates to us in perfect portion? Don't overlook what drich said, the pharisees spent their entire lifetime studying God, yet they couldn't hear what God was saying. Jesus was not soft in telling them this.

John 3 - Passage Lookup - New Living Translation - BibleGateway.com

Notably this:

"(read the chapter if you don't know the story)
10 Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. 12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"

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Now, being a member of the Sanhedrin, I'm sure this would have been a pretty heavy conviction!

Then consider Luke 10:25-37 - Passage Lookup - New Living Translation - BibleGateway.com

25 One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: “Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?”

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This man is an expert in law, being an expert his pride causes him to test the teacher whose teachings differ from his understanding.

26 Jesus replied, “What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?”

27 The man answered, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”[a]

28 “Right!” Jesus told him. “Do this and you will live!”

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So this man already knew the answer - why would he bother asking in the first place? Answer: because he had some sin to conceal. The reason someone challenges the truth is because they don't like being told they are wrong, they would rather believe a lie and be content in their sin. Here's the proof:

29 The man wanted to justify his actions, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

[Jesus tells the story of the good Samaritan]

36 “Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?” Jesus asked.

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At this point, the man has a choice to make. He is confronted with the truth, is made aware of the dishonest nature of his heart and has to decide whether he will continue to sin willfully or repent.

37 The man replied, “The one who showed him mercy.”

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A wise man! One who is an expert in law, who is willing to learn from a carpenter!

Then Jesus said, “Yes, now go and do the same.”

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See, if you have a problem and you ask Jesus for the answer, His answer will be the truth. You then have a decision whether to accept it or contest it. I would prompt you to ask yourself just whether you believe you think you are a greater authority on matters of God than Jesus or any of His apostles are, and if you decide no, then why would you consider that they are either lying or mistaken in their claims?