Heaven Or Hell

RileyG · Mar 3, 2025

I keep it simple heaven=union with God. Hell=separation from God. Yes, I believe in purgatory, but that's a different can of worms.

On the last day, all shall be raised again, some to eternal life, others to eternal damnation.

Right now, focus on your relationship with God and don't worry about the afterlife. No one, other than Jesus, had actually came back from the dead to report on the afterlife.

Peace.

CoreyD · Mar 3, 2025

Clare73 said:
The body and the immortal spirit together are the human being, the person.

No scripture?

Clare73 said:
The body dies, but the spirit does not, for it is immortal.
For believers, at death the spirit being unclothed (by the body) is with Jesus (Php 1:23).

That scripture doesn't say that.

Clare73 said:
Yes, the immortal spirits of the born again are with Christ at the death of the body, for to depart from the body (human death) is to be with Christ (Php 1:23); i.e., in heaven.
"(For the spirit) to be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord." (2 Co 5:6-8).

At the resurrection those immortal spirits are reunited with their glorified bodies.

You said the spirit goes to heaven to be with Christ when it departs the dead body.
How is it resurrected?

Clare73 said:
This is one of the eternal realities--a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, a solid structure--a work of God and, therefore, perfect and permanent--that are as yet unseen (2 Co 5:1).

What is the tent or house, in 2 Corinthians 5:1?

Clare73 said:
Well thought out. . .let's see if my response can approximate the same.

1 Co 15:35-57 deals with some objections regarding the resurrection:
1) What is the nature of the resurrection body? It is both similar and different from the former body (1 Co 15:35-44).
2) There is a natural (sinful) body and there is a spiritual (sinless) resurrection body (1 Co 15:44-49).
3) The natural (flesh and blood-perishable/mortal) body cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it must be changed to imperishable (sinless) and immortal (1 Co 15:35-55).
4) It was Adam's sin that brought his death and ultimately ours (Ro 5:12).
And it is the law of God that gives sin its power; i.e., it reveals our sin and condemns us because of our sin (1 Co 15:56-57).

What is resurrected, and what does God give a body?

Clare73 said:
1 Th 4:13-14 is responding to the believer's concern regarding the born again, who had already died, missing the catching up (rapture) when Jesus returned. Paul instructs them (1 Th 4:14-18) that those believers will be raised from the dead first, reunited with their immortal spirits and then likewise caught up with the living saints when Jesus returns .

How did their immortal spirit not depart to be with Christ, at the death of the body?
How does an immortal spirit that departed the body and lost it's way to heaven with Christ, reunited with their immortal spirit?

I'm not seeing any scripture for these statements.

Clare73 said:
Somewhat imprecise, but that is a description of a living human being, where
1) Paul refers to the human body as the earthly tent (2 Co 5:4) which clothes the immortal spirit,

Paul did not say any such thing, Clare.

Clare73 said:
2) and which, when this tent is destroyed, the immortal spirit is made naked (2 Co 5:3).

Paul does not say that.

Clare73 said:
In 2 Co 5:1-9, Paul presents
1) an earthy tent (human body), v.1

That is correct.

Clare73 said:
2) an as yet unseen eternal house in heaven, v.1,

A spirit body - the immortal one given by God. 1 Corinthians 15:35-49

Clare73 said:
3) a naked immortal spirit, unclothed with its human body by death, vv .2-3,

The dead are raised up and given a body. 1 Corinthians 15:35-49
According to the scriptures, they are sleeping in death. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

Clare73 said:
I am presenting 2 Co 5:1-9.

The OT is always understood in the light of the NT; e.g., the sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, etc.

The Bible is complete. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

CoreyD · Mar 3, 2025

RileyG said:
I keep it simple heaven=union with God. Hell=separation from God. Yes, I believe in purgatory, but that's a different can of worms.

On the last day, all shall be raised again, some to eternal life, others to eternal damnation.

Right now, focus on your relationship with God and don't worry about the afterlife. No one, other than Jesus, had actually came back from the dead to report on the afterlife.

Peace.

Many people believe they have a relationship with God, simply by believing in Jesus, but that is a sadly, misleading teaching, that has encompassed the entire scope of Christian denominations.
According to Jesus, it's not possible to have a relationship with God, if one does not know the truth. John 4:23, 24
One can work towards building a relationship with God, by getting to know the truth. Romans 10:2

We must remember the adversary. John 8:44-47
Our heart can deceive us also, and we can fool ourselves into believing that certain things aren't that important. 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-10; 2 Timothy 4:3

Aaron112 · Mar 3, 2025

CoreyD said:
our heart can deceive us also, and we can fool ourselves into believing that certain things aren't that important. 2 Thessalonians 2:11

Will you kindly print/post some /several/ of the translations of 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

None of the ones I can find on biblegateway show that someone's own heart deceives them,

nor that they are fooling themselves. The truth is more important than to go on believing what is false.

CoreyD · Mar 3, 2025

Aaron112 said:
Will you kindly print/post some /several/ of the translations of 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

None of the ones I can find on biblegateway show that someone's own heart deceives them,

nor that they are fooling themselves. The truth is more important than to go on believing what is false.

Thanks for checking the scriptures Aaron.... O wise one. I mean that. No sarcasm. ...and thanks for asking.

All the translations basically say the same...

God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie.

A delusion is a fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.

The heart is what deceives a person into believing what they want to believe. Jeremiah 17:9

“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

A delusion is a fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

The verse refers to persons that want to believe something other than the truth.

Remember Pharaoh. His heart was hardened, and God let it continue that way. God lets people be deluded into believing the lie.
Does that clear things up?

I made a correction. I meant to reference Romans 10:2.

CoreyD · Mar 3, 2025

RileyG said:
I keep it simple heaven=union with God. Hell=separation from God. Yes, I believe in purgatory, but that's a different can of worms.

There are those persons who do not, have not, and will not go to heaven.
Yet there were, and are righteous.

I referred to David as a starting point, because David was a righteous man, yet did not do to heaven.
So his is a good example to show that being righteous does not mean one is going to heaven.

All good people do not go to heaven, because that calling is not a reward for being good, or righteous.
That calling has one purpose - to serve as kings and priests, in God's kingdom. Revelation 5:9, 10

RileyG · Mar 3, 2025

CoreyD said:
There are those persons who do not, have not, and will not go to heaven.
Yet there were, and are righteous.

I referred to David as a starting point, because David was a righteous man, yet did not do to heaven.
So his is a good example to show that being righteous does not mean one is going to heaven.

All good people do not go to heaven, because that calling is not a reward for being good, or righteous.
That calling has one purpose - to serve as kings and priests, in God's kingdom. Revelation 5:9, 10

How do you know David is not in heaven?

Clare73 · Mar 3, 2025

CoreyD said:
No scripture?
That scripture doesn't say that.
You said the spirit goes to heaven to be with Christ when it departs the dead body.
How is it resurrected?

The human spirit is immortal, does not die, is not resurrected, but simply is re-united with its then-immortal resurrection body (1 Co 15:42).

CoreyD said:
What is the tent or house, in 2 Corinthians 5:1?

The tent or house is the human body which houses or "tents" our human spirit (1 Co 15:4) and which, while our spirit is in this tent (body), it groans and is burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed (spirit separated from our body by death) but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling provided by God.

CoreyD said:
What is resurrected, and what does God give a body?

Resurrection of the born again at the end of time is the return of life to the human body, and the reuniting of the immortal spirit with its now-immortal resurrection body (1 Co 15:42).
The departed spirit at the death of the born again is with Christ (1 Co 5:6-8).
At the resurrection at the end of time, that spirit is reunited with, returned to its now-immortal resurrected human body and is caught up in the air to go out and meet the incoming Christ at his second coming (1 Th 4:16-17), to descend with him back to earth (parousia), where they will assist Christ in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

CoreyD said:
How did their immortal spirit not depart to be with Christ, at the death of the body?

Who said it didn't?

CoreyD said:
How does an immortal spirit that departed the body and lost it's way to heaven with Christ, reunited with their immortal spirit?

How did it lose its way to heaven?

CoreyD said:
I'm not seeing any scripture for these statements.

Agreed. . .because they are not true.

CoreyD said:
Paul did not say any such thing, Clare.

Paul does not say that.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.
You do not understand what Paul is saying because of your personal theology.

CoreyD said:
That is correct.
A spirit body

Contradiction of terms. . .by definition, a spirit is non-material, non-physical, is not a body.

CoreyD said:
- the immortal one given by God. 1 Corinthians 15:35-49
The dead are raised up and given a body. 1 Corinthians 15:35-49
According to the scriptures, they are sleeping in death. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

The Bible is complete. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

How does that apply to the OT sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, etc.?

fhansen · Mar 3, 2025

CoreyD said:
Have you considered that what is being overlooked by most people, is that we have been fed lies through church doctrine, which many were not privileged to see for themselves, until later when people opposed the church to their death, and made the Bible available in languages that people could read for themselves, and also hear preachers who were bold enough to challenge orthodoxy and cruel authority?
Papal supremacy and Opposition
Heresy and Those Who Fought It
Inquisition Statistics

So ingrained in people's mind are the doctrines of the church, that most people do not know what the Bible actually says.
Consider for example what you believe to be logical statement - "If good people go to hell, then God isn't good."

Where though, did the word "Hell" originate?
Why is it even in some translation of the Bible, and what does it mean to those who use it?
Consider some examples...

Genesis 37:35, 38
According to the Catholic Douay Version
35 And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father [Jacob] in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping,
38 But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell.

[35] "Into hell": That is, into limbo, the place where the souls of the just were received before the death of our Redeemer. For allowing that the word hell sometimes is taken for the grave, it cannot be so taken in this place; since Jacob did not believe his son to be in the grave, (whom he supposed to be devoured by a wild beast,) and therefore could not mean to go down to him thither: but certainly meant the place of rest where he believed his soul to be.

Here, they say "hell" is the place of limbo, where good souls go to rest.

Numbers 16:30, 33
According to the Catholic Douay Version
30 But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
33 And they went down alive into hell the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.

Here, they give no commentary, but this is a group of bad people, who go to the same "hell" (or are they two different "hells")?
People form their own interpretations and yes, some have come up with the idea of "hell" meaning different things.
Then there are those who have the idea that "hell" has two compartments - one for good people, and one for bad people, since both go the same place.
So, we get confusion.

Does rendering the word as "grave" cause confusion?
Many agree that this is not the case, but rather that that rendering agrees and harmonizes with scripture, as both good and bad people die, and are buried.
As the Bible says, they return to the dust. Genesis 3:19; Job 34:15; Psalm 104:29; Psalm 146:3, 4
All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. Ecclesiastes 3:20
That is what the Bible says.

So, if we use the word "hell", which many translations use... including the 16th century KJV, then we have to agree that both good and bad people go to "hell".
That would render your statement false, and against scripture, wouldn't it?
So, while it may sound logical, it would be unscriptural.

There are many other scriptures which translations render the Hebrew word Sheol, as "hell", but many other translations render Sheol as "grave".
What I find interesting, is that while the KJV uses the word "Hell", the New KJV (NKJV) uses "grave".

Interesting that they changed, isn't it.
Would it have anything to do with the fact that the use of the word "hell" was based on an earlier teaching of eternal torment in fire, which many are now seeing cannot be true, based on scripture, and so, the concept of "hell" has changed, over time.

One of those scriptures that probably had an impact, is one of my favorites, which says that people come out of "hell"... rendering the whole "eternal torment in hell fire" false.
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The Bible does say that only the righteous will go to heaven, but this does not refer to all righteous people, since those who go to heaven are chosen from among mankind for a special role as kings, judges, and priests. Please see this post, for scriptural references.

What are your thoughts on this?

Ok, I think I see where you're coming from now. The term "hell" has experienced a variety of applications and is a relatively modern western translation of certain biblical words pertaining to the afterlife in one way or another. But the concept of eternal punishment in any case is biblical enough.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt 25:41

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev 20:10

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." 2 Thess 1:9

The concept of hell really involves the absence of God at the end of the day. God is heaven, as some have put it, while His absence guarantees misery. We see this misery already present in this life which is sort of a half-way house between God and no God, heaven and hell, where both the goodness of His creation, His handiwork, along with the evil of sin make their marks and are literally known by us here. Jesus opened the door to heaven, so to speak, to God, to eating from the Tree of Life for all who turn to Him. If we prefer to remain in our pride, our cold isolated selfishness over the true goodness and love that we've been shown by Him, then we're already choosing hell, already more or less there and our lives will already be reflecting that state.

And this concept is not a novel one as the EO and others along with the ECFs believe similiarly, not to mention Reformers and many of their descendants going by Scripture alone, To that extent yours is just one more opinion among many. And most, BTW, have arguably been illiterate down through the majority of the Christian centuries, so either God abandoned His people for centuries or the church taught the basic faith more or less well regardless of whether or not members including leaders were always following that faith well. Many did, producing much good fruit while others did not, or did worse, producing bad fruit at various times. Either way, no one is impeccable in this life even if church people are called to a higher standard.

The article you referenced portayed the inquistion pretty accurately. Without defending the death penalties, whether related to the inquistion or to non-Catholics also defending society from heresy and perhaps more so from witchcraft in their case, Christianity was deeply interwoven into civil affairs during those times, times generally much harsher than ours, and the faith was seen and valued as the one moderating and stabilizing force between diverse states and cultures in the west, particularly after the fall of the Roman Empire. And before that time the faith was replacing the older polytheistic religions that worshipped whimsical gods who guaranteed or fostered no real justice, order, light, or life, of course.

For its part today, the Catholic Church officially opposes the death penalty altogether.

CoreyD · Mar 6, 2025

RileyG said:
How do you know David is not in heaven?

From the scriptures.

CoreyD · Mar 6, 2025

Clare73 said:
The human spirit is immortal, does not die,

No scriptures talk about an immortal human spirit.
The spirit given to man is not a living thing, but is spirit (life force) that keeps him alive.
Genesis 2:7; Psalm 104:29; Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 12:7

Please explain the above scriptures.

Clare73 said:
is not resurrected, but simply is re-united with its then-immortal resurrection body (1 Co 15:42).

The Bible does not refer to an .immortal resurrection body
1 Corinthians 15:42 does not refer to the body. That word was inserted, in place of the word nekros: Dead, deceased, which refers to the dead person.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said, "But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what body do they come?" You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that will be, but you sow a bare grain, if it may be of wheat, or of some of the rest. But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.
1 Corinthians 15:35-38

According to the scriptures, the person dies... is sown. They - the dead - are raised up (Not the body), and God gives what is raised up - the dead person - a body, according to his design.
That is what the scriptures say.

Clare73 said:
The tent or house is the human body which houses or "tents" our human spirit (1 Co 15:4) and which, while our spirit is in this tent (body), it groans and is burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed (spirit separated from our body by death) but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling provided by God.

That is not what the scripture says.
The scripture does not say the body is a tent for any human spirit, and Paul says we groan.
Paul does not say a human spirit groans.

Clare73 said:
Resurrection of the born again at the end of time is the return of life to the human body, and the reuniting of the immortal spirit with its now-immortal resurrection body (1 Co 15:42).

That's not what the scripture says.
Please consider using a proper translation. The NIV falls short of that.
You can also use a Greek interlinear, to be sure.

If, however, you prefer NIV, it would be beneficial to have other translations handy, so that you can compare.
I found NIV to paraphrase several passages to fit doctrinal views.

Clare73 said:
The departed spirit at the death of the born again is with Christ (1 Co 5:6-8).

1 Corinthians 5:6-8

Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Get rid of the old leaven, that you may be a new unleavened batch, as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with the old bread, leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and of truth.

Did you mean to reference another scripture?
This one does not say anything about any departed spirit being with Christ.
Perhaps you have loaves on your mind, Clare, because it's that time of the year.

Is there a scripture to support your view?

Clare73 said:
At the resurrection at the end of time, that spirit is reunited with, returned to its now-immortal resurrected human body and is caught up in the air to go out and meet the incoming Christ at his second coming (1 Th 4:16-17), to descend with him back to earth (parousia), where they will assist Christ in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

As shown above, there is no scriptural support for this view.
The dead in Christ, are dead... not living immortal spirits.

Clare73 said:
Who said it didn't?

The scriptures.
1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16

15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Those whom are sleeping until the Lord's call... where are "their immortal spirit"?
If "their immortal spirit" departed their dead body, and went with Christ, why are they now being raised up to meet the Lord in the air?

Clare73 said:
How did it lose its way to heaven?

The scriptures do not say they are in heaven with Christ, as you earlier said.
Please refer to the preceding.

Clare73 said:
Agreed. . .because they are not true.

Thank you for that.
Why then do you continue to say these things? Do you not believe them?

Clare73 said:
Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.
You do not understand what Paul is saying because of your personal theology.

That's easy to say Clare. Now, please demonstrate it.

Clare73 said:
Contradiction of terms. . .by definition, a spirit is non-material, non-physical, is not a body.

That's not what Paul said.
1 Corinthians 15:44-49

44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 Thus it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual.

47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.

49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.

There are properties of a different sort.
One is of a physical nature. The other is of a spiritual nature.
However, the Bible refers to bodies in both natures. 1 Corinthians 15:39-41

Clare73 said:
How does that apply to the OT sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, etc.?

Let's not get side tracked with a different topic.

CoreyD · Mar 6, 2025

fhansen said:
Ok, I think I see where you're coming from now. The term "hell" has experienced a variety of applications and is a relatively modern western translation of certain biblical words pertaining to the afterlife in one way or another. But the concept of eternal punishment in any case is biblical enough.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt 25:41

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev 20:10

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." 2 Thess 1:9

The concept of hell really involves the absence of God at the end of the day. God is heaven, as some have put it, while His absence guarantees misery. We see this misery already present in this life which is sort of a half-way house between God and no God, heaven and hell, where both the goodness of His creation, His handiwork, along with the evil of sin make their marks and are literally known by us here. Jesus opened the door to heaven, so to speak, to God, to eating from the Tree of Life for all who turn to Him. If we prefer to remain in our pride, our cold isolated selfishness over the true goodness and love that we've been shown by Him, then we're already choosing hell, already more or less there and our lives will already be reflecting that state.

And this concept is not a novel one as the EO and others along with the ECFs believe similiarly, not to mention Reformers and many of their descendants going by Scripture alone, To that extent yours is just one more opinion among many. And most, BTW, have arguably been illiterate down through the majority of the Christian centuries, so either God abandoned His people for centuries or the church taught the basic faith more or less well regardless of whether or not members including leaders were always following that faith well. Many did, producing much good fruit while others did not, or did worse, producing bad fruit at various times. Either way, no one is impeccable in this life even if church people are called to a higher standard.

The article you referenced portayed the inquistion pretty accurately. Without defending the death penalties, whether related to the inquistion or to non-Catholics also defending society from heresy and perhaps more so from witchcraft in their case, Christianity was deeply interwoven into civil affairs during those times, times generally much harsher than ours, and the faith was seen and valued as the one moderating and stabilizing force between diverse states and cultures in the west, particularly after the fall of the Roman Empire. And before that time the faith was replacing the older polytheistic religions that worshipped whimsical gods who guaranteed or fostered no real justice, order, light, or life, of course.

For its part today, the Catholic Church officially opposes the death penalty altogether.

You presented a couple different ideas here, so perhaps we can look at them one at a time.
Do you believe people literally burn in a fiery "hell" forever?

fhansen · Mar 6, 2025

CoreyD said:
You presented a couple different ideas here, so perhaps we can look at them one at a time.
Do you believe people literally burn in a fiery "hell" forever?

I believe that humans were created to exist forever, and that they can ultimately choose to exist apart from God and that this separation, itself, is the cause of all the pain and suffering already experienced in this world. This world is not hell, but certainly not heaven, either.

RileyG · Mar 6, 2025

CoreyD said:
From the scriptures.

It didn’t directly say he went to hell.

CoreyD · Mar 6, 2025

RileyG said:
It didn’t directly say he went to hell.

Why do you believe it's either heaven and hell.
When anyone dies they go where the Bible says they go.
Psalm 146:4; Psalm 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20; Ecclesiastes 12:7

We know it as six feet under.
Why are gravestones marked RIP?
Tombstones in Catholic cemeteries often feature the abbreviation "RIP," which stands for "Requiescat in pace" in Latin, meaning "Rest in peace." This abbreviation comes from an eighth-century Latin prayer for the dead, which in its entirety is: "Requiem æternam dona ei, Domine. Et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescat in pace. Amen." This translates to "Grant him eternal rest, O Lord. And let perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen."

Hmm. Then they tell you guys the person is in heaven,, basking in glory, or hell, roasting in agony.
The Bible tells us the truth. Why don't we believe that instead of what the church tells us?

David went to his place of rest - his grave... until God remembers his, and brings him back to life - resurrects him. John 5:27, 28; Acts 24:15

Where?
Not in heaven.

Why?
Christ did not call David to be one of the Saints, who will rule with him, and be priests and judges, during the 1,000 year reign. Luke 12:32; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 7:1-4; Revelation 14:1-5; Revelation 20:6;

David will be resurrected to the earth, where millions will live under God's kingdom. Revelation 21:1-5; Psalm 37:11; Matthew 5:5; Matthew 6:10; Ephesians 1:10

CoreyD · Mar 6, 2025

fhansen said:
I believe that humans were created to exist forever, and that they can ultimately choose to exist apart from God and that this separation, itself, is the cause of all the pain and suffering already experienced in this world.

So, do you believe Adam did not die?
You do not believe humans literally die physically?

fhansen said:
This world is not hell, but certainly not heaven, either.

Do you believe in a literal heaven?

fhansen · Mar 6, 2025

CoreyD said:
So, do you believe Adam did not die?
You do not believe humans literally die physically?

Yes, all humans die physically now.

CoreyD said:
Do you believe in a literal heaven?

Yes, heaven is where God is, not necessarily a physical place or existing in time and space. Beyond my pay grade at this point.

RileyG · Mar 6, 2025

CoreyD said:
Why do you believe it's either heaven and hell.
When anyone dies they go where the Bible says they go.
Psalm 146:4; Psalm 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20; Ecclesiastes 12:7

We know it as six feet under.
Why are gravestones marked RIP?
Tombstones in Catholic cemeteries often feature the abbreviation "RIP," which stands for "Requiescat in pace" in Latin, meaning "Rest in peace." This abbreviation comes from an eighth-century Latin prayer for the dead, which in its entirety is: "Requiem æternam dona ei, Domine. Et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescat in pace. Amen." This translates to "Grant him eternal rest, O Lord. And let perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen."

Hmm. Then they tell you guys the person is in heaven,, basking in glory, or hell, roasting in agony.
The Bible tells us the truth. Why don't we believe that instead of what the church tells us?

David went to his place of rest - his grave... until God remembers his, and brings him back to life - resurrects him. John 5:27, 28; Acts 24:15

Where?
Not in heaven.

Why?
Christ did not call David to be one of the Saints, who will rule with him, and be priests and judges, during the 1,000 year reign. Luke 12:32; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 7:1-4; Revelation 14:1-5; Revelation 20:6;

David will be resurrected to the earth, where millions will live under God's kingdom. Revelation 21:1-5; Psalm 37:11; Matthew 5:5; Matthew 6:10; Ephesians 1:10

No. Soul sleep is not biblical for Christians. Generally only SDA and JW believe it.

Those who are righteous are in heaven awaiting for the resurrection.

Remember the transfiguration? What about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

They sound conscious to me!

RileyG · Mar 6, 2025

fhansen said:
Yes, all humans die physically now.

Yes, heaven is where God is, not necessarily a physical place or existing in time and space. Beyond my pay grade at this point.

Exactly!

RileyG · Mar 6, 2025

CoreyD said:
No scriptures talk about an immortal human spirit.
The spirit given to man is not a living thing, but is spirit (life force) that keeps him alive.
Genesis 2:7; Psalm 104:29; Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 12:7

Please explain the above scriptures.

The Bible does not refer to an .immortal resurrection body
1 Corinthians 15:42 does not refer to the body. That word was inserted, in place of the word nekros: Dead, deceased, which refers to the dead person.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said, "But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what body do they come?" You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that will be, but you sow a bare grain, if it may be of wheat, or of some of the rest. But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.
1 Corinthians 15:35-38

According to the scriptures, the person dies... is sown. They - the dead - are raised up (Not the body), and God gives what is raised up - the dead person - a body, according to his design.
That is what the scriptures say.

That is not what the scripture says.
The scripture does not say the body is a tent for any human spirit, and Paul says we groan.
Paul does not say a human spirit groans.

That's not what the scripture says.
Please consider using a proper translation. The NIV falls short of that.
You can also use a Greek interlinear, to be sure.

If, however, you prefer NIV, it would be beneficial to have other translations handy, so that you can compare.
I found NIV to paraphrase several passages to fit doctrinal views.

1 Corinthians 5:6-8

Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
Get rid of the old leaven, that you may be a new unleavened batch, as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with the old bread, leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and of truth.

Did you mean to reference another scripture?
This one does not say anything about any departed spirit being with Christ.
Perhaps you have loaves on your mind, Clare, because it's that time of the year.

Is there a scripture to support your view?

As shown above, there is no scriptural support for this view.
The dead in Christ, are dead... not living immortal spirits.

The scriptures.
1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16

15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Those whom are sleeping until the Lord's call... where are "their immortal spirit"?
If "their immortal spirit" departed their dead body, and went with Christ, why are they now being raised up to meet the Lord in the air?

The scriptures do not say they are in heaven with Christ, as you earlier said.
Please refer to the preceding.

Thank you for that.
Why then do you continue to say these things? Do you not believe them?

That's easy to say Clare. Now, please demonstrate it.

That's not what Paul said.
1 Corinthians 15:44-49

44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.

There are properties of a different sort.
One is of a physical nature. The other is of a spiritual nature.
However, the Bible refers to bodies in both natures. 1 Corinthians 15:39-41

Let's not get side tracked with a different topic.

Soul sleep didn’t become popular among Christians until after the Reformation. Luther may have flirted with the idea, but he certainly didn’t believe in it!

Your quotations of Scripture are just proof text.

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