Heaven or Hell?

[cvanwey]

Yahweh knows. Unless Yahweh reveals to someone, they don't know.

I see your perspective I guess....? Meaning, a smart lawyer could know judicial law inside and out, just like a 'smart' theist can know the Bible inside and out. But the lawyer may still not know the outcome of how the 'judge' may rule in one of his/her court cases, just like the theist may still not know the answer to the question in the OP. Is this correct???

However, in the case of the OP, believing a certain and specific judge even exists, prior to the outcome, may not appear to matter? Just like the lawyer might not even know a specific judge exists prior to trial.

Am I in the ballpark?

 

[cvanwey]

But if that person was convicted of sin and knew that he is guilty . God has ways to reveal himself to people through visions , dreams so he could be saved if he wanted to . He has to believe in Yahoshua to be saved there is no other way .

I know this appears to be an 'is verses ought' fallacy, but doesn't such a method appear cryptic? Meaning, from the get-go, Satan and all fallen angels knew of God's existence and choose to rebel anyways. So the assurance of every human's complete knowledge of existence does not appear to be the deciding factor between heaven and hell? Full knowledge of existence appears permitted and to still have 'freewill' to freely choose to follow or not to follow God.

Again, I'm not judging God's character, just observing the logic. Meaning, it appears 'visions' and 'dreams' are somewhat erroneous. Actually, very erroneous. Many are schizophrenic and even then still fully acknowledge many of their 'visions' are false reality. Many see things and later acknowledge it was false reality, through peer verification. People have many dreams of spirits, monsters, ghosts, gods, and the like, and fully realize that they are just dreams.

Seems more logical that 'common knowledge' of Yahweh specifically might be as concluded as humans acknowledgement of the sun or the moon.

So if an African tribesman dies at age 50, never hearing of Jesus Christ, you honestly think that individual would have had a dream, where Jesus Christ appears to that individual, and introduces Himself by name? And even if He did, you honestly think the tribesman would wake up and denounce his lifelong indoctrinated religious alternate god belief, because of the one of many 'spiritual' dreams he/she had? And what if the following month, he/she received another dream from another spirit, whom also introduces them self and stated they are the true and correct god? How might this African be able to associate the 'correct' claimed god from the false one?

 

[Chinchilla]

So if an African tribesman dies at age 50, never hearing of Jesus Christ, you honestly think that individual would have had a dream, where Jesus Christ appears to that individual, and introduces Himself by name? And even if He did, you honestly think the tribesman would wake up and denounce his lifelong indoctrinated religious alternate god belief, because of the one of many 'spiritual' dreams he/she had? And what if the following month, he/she received another dream from another spirit, whom also introduces them self and stated they are the true and correct god? How might this African be able to associate the 'correct' claimed god from the false one?

God would make sure that person understands . Let's take Saul for example . He was Jew who was persecuting Christians . He was boasting in fact that " he does favor to God" because of killing the ones who accoring to Saul were rejecting Yahweh . You can read his talk with Yahweh first thing he says is Who art thu LORD ?
Saul imidietly acknowledged that he had vision and Yahweh spoke to him and it was revealed to him that Yehoshua is Yahweh . He did not dispute nor was he he have dubts about that . These Christians even tho they bear the testimony it was not enought to change heart of person like Saul who was murdering them so Yehoshua had to literally appear himself to change him .

So yes it is possible for God to reveal himself through dreams or visions .
You can watch some testimony on yutube about people who had Jesus revealed to them in vision or in dream and preached this way .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No. Most smart lawyers and smart theists have no idea what is truth, especially concerning for here and now the OP.
Yahweh has hidden the truth , hidden salvation, from the educated ones,
and Yahweh has revealed everything concerning salvation to the infants
as Jesus says, for Yahweh is well pleased so to do.

Without faith, obviously, also, it is impossible to please Yahweh.
Without a pure heart, it is impossible to ever see heaven or His Kingdom.

 

[cvanwey]

God would make sure that person understands . Let's take Saul for example . He was Jew who was persecuting Christians . He was boasting in fact that " he does favor to God" because of killing the ones who accoring to Saul were rejecting Yahweh . You can read his talk with Yahweh first thing he says is Who art thu LORD ?
Saul imidietly acknowledged that he had vision and Yahweh spoke to him and it was revealed to him that Yehoshua is Yahweh . He did not dispute nor was he he have dubts about that . These Christians even tho they bear the testimony it was not enought to change heart of person like Saul who was murdering them so Yehoshua had to literally appear himself to change him .

So yes it is possible for God to reveal himself through dreams or visions .
You can watch some testimony on yutube about people who had Jesus revealed to them in vision or in dream and preached this way .

I can also watch dreams and visionary testimony of others claiming to receive a response from alternate gods (in which they are completely assured they are right). Everyone thinks their visions are right, if not instead verified to be false through whatever means they conclude or deem necessary. My point is that many will take to their graves the steadfast conclusion of their belief in a god, which does not include Yahweh.

You do also understand that about half of the NT was written by Sal alone, correct? I state this specifically because it appears that Sal alone spread his visionary testimony to many (which arguably is one of the primary reasons Christianity exists today).

 

[ananda]

A remote group of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

Depends on their individual kamma.

 

[Chinchilla]

I can also watch dreams and visionary testimony of others claiming to receive a response from alternate gods (in which they are completely assured they are right). Everyone thinks their visions are right, if not instead verified to be false through whatever means they conclude or deem necessary. My point is that many will take to their graves the steadfast conclusion of their belief in a god, which does not include Yahweh.

You do also understand that about half of the NT was written by Sal alone, correct? I state this specifically because it appears that Sal alone spread his visionary testimony to many (which arguably is one of the primary reasons Christianity exists today).

Yes that's correct . Muslims took the concept of Paul and made Mahomet as thier prophet , so did others denominations like Last Day Saints ect.

What validates Paul is that he was not in Jerusalem with other apostles but was preaching to gentiles , and when All apostles met in Jerusalem Peter by Holy Spirit vallidate Paul and his writting as Scriptures , because even tho Paul was not witnessing Christ's death it was revealed to him with whole councel so he knew everything like the rest of Apostles did plus he did miracles just like they did in name of Christ .

There is no name under Heaven with which man can be saved other than Yah this is correct . That's why you should become missionary if you have such passion for dead people , because God said if they don't believe they are alredy dead .

John 3:18

There will be one moment in your life where gospel will be preached to you in one form or another , I can preach it to you if you desire and if you want to decide to accept or reject it .

 

[ViaCrucis]

Would it be safe to then say, if one is genuine in their faith, and hopes and wishes the best for others abroad, it may be safer not to proselytize Christianity to individuals whom have not heard of Jesus Christ?

Ignorance is not a guarantee for salvation. The point is that we can't know, but we can trust God--and God won't hold their ignorance against them.

The idea that Christians go to "Heaven" and non-Christians go to "Hell" really just isn't accurate of how the majority of Christians throughout history understand how things are. Instead the Christian confession is that salvation is found in Jesus, in what God has done in and through Jesus; which is why in Christ we confess we have salvation. The inverse would then mean that outside of Christ there is no salvation; but what we can't say is that simply not being a Christian in this life means a person is ultimately without Christ; just as we can't say that simply calling oneself a Christian in this life means a person is ultimately in Christ.

St. Augustine speaks of there being both wolves within and sheep without; that there are many who call themselves Christians but who are actually wolves, and that there may be many who we do not know today as brothers but who are, in fact, sheep.

I can know that here, in Christ's Church, there is salvation because it is here that God promises to deliver and apprehend for me the gifts of His grace through the preaching of the Gospel and the Sacraments; that here Christ is found and given and in Him I have salvation. Now is it possible that there are places where God is feeding people Christ outside of the Church, outside of the revealed means given to us? Sure--but I have no way of knowing one way or the other; but it is certainly possible. And I am hopeful that there are many who have never tasted of Christ from His Supper that, nevertheless, will have their rest in Him by the kindness of God. Whether we are talking of the unevangelized or even our next door neighbor who, perhaps having been spoiled against the word of Jesus through wicked preachers, would never even conceive of stepping foot into the door of a church. How should I know what things God is doing when He does not tell me, and who am I to question the Almighty's goodness?

The conclusion is not "it is better to say nothing because there is a better chance of salvation if we say nothing" but instead, "We know through the Gospel that God is the Savior and Friend of sinners and He comes to us here, let us be hopeful for the sake of our neighbor, trusting in the kindness and love of the God who saves us."

The Christian confession is not, "If you belong to our tribe then you are saved, and if you do not you are damned." The Christian confession is, "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation"

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tigger45]

Would it be safe to then say, if one is genuine in their faith, and hopes and wishes the best for others abroad, it may be safer not to proselytize Christianity to individuals whom have not heard of Jesus Christ?

No. Although the Creator is a merciful God, and that creation declares His existence psalm 19:1 its also a “fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Hebrews 10:31 the only guarantee is to have faith in the Savior. John 3:16

 

[Chinchilla]

No. Although the Creator is a merciful God, and that creation declares His existence psalm 19:1 its also a “fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Hebrews 10:31 the only guarantee is to have faith in the Savior. John 3:16

2 Corinthians 5:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Sanoy]

St. Augustine speaks of there being both wolves within and sheep without;

I like that, such a good metaphor. I always think back to that last book in the Chronicles of Narnia where someone that worshipped Tash gets into heaven. I think I was in middle school when I read it, and it really changed my view of things.

 

[cvanwey]

No. Most smart lawyers and smart theists have no idea what is truth, especially concerning for here and now the OP.

Without faith, obviously, also, it is impossible to please Yahweh.
Without a pure heart, it is impossible to ever see heaven or His Kingdom.

Would you mind defining your rendition of 'faith', and how it differs from others people's definition for faith, whom also apply 'faith' in their religions, beliefs, and hopes? Meaning, is faith really that useful and required for actual knowledge, depending on your definition?

Many people associate this word differently, (i.e.) simply restate what it says in the Bible, some apply a dictionary definition, others associate faith as being equal to hope and trust. I would like to know your take of the word 'faith'?

It also seems odd to state the following:

Yahweh has hidden the truth , hidden salvation, from the educated ones,
and Yahweh has revealed everything concerning salvation to the infants
as Jesus says, for Yahweh is well pleased so to do.

Can you please again elaborate?

 

[Dave RP]

A remote group of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

I ask my Christian friend a similar question, she tells me she believes that very young infants who are innocent will go to heaven so I give her the conundrum of a coach load of Muslims out on a day out, the coach crashes and 50 are killed. Amongst the dead are 3 babies, 3 infants under 3 and 3 women were pregnant. According to her beliefs 9 souls would be going to heaven, including the three fetus's in the womb, and 44 souls would be going to hell because they had rejected Jesus. It's dogma like that which persuades me against all organised religion.

I understand Islam teaches that it is deeds that count on judgement day, Christianity says it is faith and repentance. I personally feel that is there is a god and there is a judgement, it's more likely to be based on deeds in this life than who you happened to be taught about when you're young.

 

[cvanwey]

I ask my Christian friend a similar question, she tells me she believes that very young infants who are innocent will go to heaven so I give her the conundrum of a coach load of Muslims out on a day out, the coach crashes and 50 are killed. Amongst the dead are 3 babies, 3 infants under 3 and 3 women were pregnant. According to her beliefs 9 souls would be going to heaven, including the three fetus's in the womb, and 44 souls would be going to hell because they had rejected Jesus. It's dogma like that which persuades me against all organised religion.

I understand Islam teaches that it is deeds that count on judgement day, Christianity says it is faith and repentance. I personally feel that is there is a god and there is a judgement, it's more likely to be based on deeds in this life than who you happened to be taught about when you're young.

And to add another layer... Some/many will answer stating they do not know the answer, but that 'God' does, and that 'God' is just. This is one of the beauties of all religion. It is not falsifiable, and contains 'built-in' not falsifiable answers, regardless of the question.

 

[Hawkins]

A remote group of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

Jesus is all about a new covenant with God's Grace maximized. Salvation itself is a gift not earned by humans but by Christ. Thus God and Christ has the right to grant it to whoever. This is the bottom line. That being said. Never heard of Christ means they are all subject to the judgment of an older covenant. All covenant are signed with God's Grace by the blood of Christ.

Whether they wind up in Heaven and Hell is by the judgment of the covenant they are subject to.

 

[cvanwey]

Jesus is all about a new covenant with God's Grace maximized. Salvation itself is a gift not earned by humans but by Christ. Thus God and Christ has the right to grant it to whoever. This is the bottom line. That being said. Never heard of Christ means they are all subject to the judgment of an older covenant. All covenant are signed with God's Grace by the blood of Christ.

Whether they wind up in Heaven and Hell is by the judgment of the covenant they are subject to.

Would you mind providing the Bible verse(s) for the lines of demarcation, between the old covenant and new covenant conclusions you speak of?

 

[Par5]

I think I am correct in saying that those who consider themselves "saved" believe they will enjoy eternal life in heaven, but I also think that those who believe the rest of us poor suckers will suffer eternal pain and suffering in a place called hell have got it wrong, if the bible is to be believed that is.
Romans 6:23 New International Version (NIV). "23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Several other bible verses give the same message, no talk of eternal torture in any of them, just eternal life or death.
So the bible is saying that the godly get eternal bliss while the godless simply die, the latter being exactly what I believe will happen, not just to me, but to everyone!

 

[HTacianas]

A remote group of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

To answer your question:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Every man has a conscience, and every man will be judged based on that conscience. Those who by nature do good will be rewarded. Those who do wrong will be punished. One of the difficulties those face is that by habit and custom they have learned to do wrong instead of right. Those suffer from "...having their conscience seared with a hot iron".

Evangelization is not merely to tell people about Jesus, but to encourage them to repentance.

 

[devolved]

A remote group of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

I think the context is largely that of "reincarnation" as a part of the choices one consciously made than it is of "punishment or rewards" for these choices.

I'll draw up a couple things to think about:

1) The punishments for immoral living is "hell on Earth" so to speak. There are consequences for immorality that result in worst possible being for everyone in context where people murder, lie, cheat and steal from each other. It's an extremely miserable existence.

On the other hand, the rewards of moral living is the best possible existence for everyone in context of collective moral support of certain structures that people build for our collective benefits.

Thus, heaven or hell concepts are predominately "here and now" rather than sometimes after death IMO. If there is some "after death" continuum, I wouldn't imagine that it would automatically result in discontinuity from "here and now" moral choices that one makes.

Christianity isn't about some ritualistic "belief" to gain a ticket to heaven. Christianity is a mindset that when executed results in maintaining heaven. Certain mindsets will ruin heaven for everyone, and would actually be very unhappy in context of heaven... either here and now, or if heaven existed as some continuum of after-death existence.

Thus, if you want to see whether any given individual is "fit for heaven", just look at how closely they resemble the character of what Christianity is all about - embodiment of God's ideals in a person of Christ.

 

[cvanwey]

I think the context is largely that of "reincarnation" as a part of the choices one consciously made than it is of "punishment or rewards" for these choices.

I'll draw up a couple things to think about:

1) The punishments for immoral living is "hell on Earth" so to speak. There are consequences for immorality that result in worst possible being for everyone in context where people murder, lie, cheat and steal from each other. It's an extremely miserable existence.

On the other hand, the rewards of moral living is the best possible existence for everyone in context of collective moral support of certain structures that people build for our collective benefits.

Thus, heaven or hell concepts are predominately "here and now" rather than sometimes after death IMO. If there is some "after death" continuum, I wouldn't imagine that it would automatically result in discontinuity from "here and now" moral choices that one makes.

Christianity isn't about some ritualistic "belief" to gain a ticket to heaven. Christianity is a mindset that when executed results in maintaining heaven. Certain mindsets will ruin heaven for everyone, and would actually be very unhappy in context of heaven... either here and now, or if heaven existed as some continuum of after-death existence.

Thus, if you want to see whether any given individual is "fit for heaven", just look at how closely they resemble the character of what Christianity is all about - embodiment of God's ideals in a person of Christ.

Thank you for this response. However, it does not appear to answer the axiomatic question posed?

A tribe is exterminated, and never heard of Jesus. According to the 'correct' translations of scripture, do they go to heaven or hell - (regardless of what your personal concept of 'hell' might actually be)?