Heaven or Hell?

[cvanwey]

A remote group of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

 

[TuxAme]

It depends. Their ignorance of Christ may allow them to be saved. However, there's more to attaining salvation than believing in Jesus. To the best of their ability, they would have had to seek God with a sincere heart and obey the natural (moral) law, which is written on the hearts of all people.

 

[AvgJoe]

A good article on the subject~~~> https://www.josh.org/answer/never-heard-jesus/

 

[cvanwey]

A good article on the subject~~~> https://www.josh.org/answer/never-heard-jesus/

Though I appreciate the article, I had to stop reading right about here:

'Even though we may not know how He is going to deal with these people specifically, we know that His judgment is going to be fair. Just this fact alone should satisfy anyone who wonders how God is going to deal with people who have never heard of Jesus Christ.'

Most of it, before this point, was not much more informative; but was instead filled with presupposition.

What is your take on the matter? I would assume you have read the Bible. What's your interpretation? Heaven or hell?

 

[cvanwey]

It depends. Their ignorance of Christ may allow them to be saved. However, there's more to attaining salvation than believing in Jesus. To the best of their ability, they would have had to seek God with a sincere heart and obey the natural (moral) law, which is written on the hearts of all people.

Okay, they worshiped the God they were taught, and thought they were actually preying to, never being taught of Jesus Christ, but just so happened to adhered to many moral values which also align with many Biblical principles (i.e.) no murder, no adultery, no theft, no trespassing, the 'golden rule', etc.. But of course they could not adhere to the first commandment, because they would not know any better (as they genuinely never heard of Jesus before).

Heaven or hell?

 

[Dirk1540]

A remote tribe of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

I believe in 'Heart' belief not 'Head' belief. I've seen too many sincere people intellectually reject Christianity to believe that one's gift of immortality would come down to how they decipher the field of historiography. I also am currently in a study of philosophy and getting more familiar with how slippery words can be like 'Believe' 'Faith' etc. Let alone a 2,000 year culture gap (I personally think the gap can be bridged, however it does make it more of a challenge). I worked with a girl once where I could literally see sweat forming on her forehead trying to grasp something that I was saying to her, but just couldn't buy it intellectually. I worked with this girl for YEARS and she let me give her my best attempts. And she was one of the most generous and caring people that I've ever known.

I also believe in extended moments at the time of a person's death where 3 seconds can last for an extremely long time, with true revelation from God at that time. Time space relativity confirms this. Also, I am a very active dreamer, and several times I have hit a 10 minute snooze button, and had what seemed like an hour long dream.

I believe that Jesus owns the only boat that takes you to the island of Heaven. 'BELIEF' in Jesus is much more spiritually discerned than intellectually discerned. This is a belief beyond verbal articulation. So...suppose you think that the name of this God connection that you feel inside of you is called Buddha? I have a hard time believing that true revelation at the time of death does not straighten a lot of SINCERE misinformed people out at the hour of their death.

Now, does this mean that my attitude is 'Whatever, pick whatever belief you want!' No, for 2 reasons. #1 a respect thing. It would kind of feel like me not caring about giving respect to my dad, like not caring about people saying that my dad was not a good dad. And #2 I believe that there is a force in the world where Christianity (not fake Christians) has a positive domino effect on everything, where the more it is practiced the better the chain reaction is on the world...and the more it is violated (starting with hypocrite Christians) the more of a bad chain reaction that takes place.

 

[cvanwey]

I believe in 'Heart' belief not 'Head' belief. I've seen too many sincere people intellectually reject Christianity to believe that one's gift of immortality would come down to how they decipher the field of historiography. I also am currently in a study of philosophy and getting more familiar with how slippery words can be like 'Believe' 'Faith' etc. Let alone a 2,000 year culture gap (I personally think the gap can be bridged, however it does make it more of a challenge). I worked with a girl once where I could literally see sweat forming on her forehead trying to grasp something that I was saying to her, but just couldn't buy it intellectually. I worked with this girl for YEARS and she let me give her my best attempts. And she was one of the most generous and caring people that I've ever known.

I also believe in extended moments at the time of a person's death where 3 seconds can last for an extremely long time, with true revelation from God at that time. Time space relativity confirms this. Also, I am a very active dreamer, and several times I have hit a 10 minute snooze button, and had what seemed like an hour long dream.

I believe that Jesus owns the only boat that takes you to the island of Heaven. 'BELIEF' in Jesus is much more spiritually discerned than intellectually discerned. This is a belief beyond verbal articulation. So...suppose you think that the name of this God connection that you feel inside of you is called Buddha? I have a hard time believing that true revelation at the time of death does not straighten a lot of SINCERE misinformed people out at the hour of their death.

Now, does this mean that my attitude is 'Whatever, pick whatever belief you want!' No, for 2 reasons. #1 a respect thing. It would kind of feel like me not caring about giving respect to my dad, like not caring about people saying that my dad was not a good dad. And #2 I believe that there is a force in the world where Christianity (not fake Christians) has a positive domino effect on everything, where the more it is practiced the better the chain reaction is on the world...and the more it is violated (starting with hypocrite Christians) the more of a bad chain reaction that takes place.

I appreciate the response, but I did not seem to get an answer? According to the Bible, do they go to heaven or hell? Your response seems to possibly suggest 'heaven'? But I want to be clear.

 

[Dirk1540]

I believe that the Bible telling you to 'Believe' in Jesus can become more complex than it sounds.

I appreciate the response, but I did not seem to get an answer? According to the Bible, do they go to heaven or hell?

I believe that they can go to heaven, depending on who they are of course. The Bible was written in a very direct way, and was very directly addressed to people in the context of prophets, the Messiah, and apostles. And it was very bold because it was to be a guide for generations & generations, so I think it had no choice but to be in your face & bold.

However I think 'Belief in Jesus' can reach more gray areas then people think. I think sometimes I can look at the life of an 'Intellectual' non-Christian and actually see a belief in Jesus in how they live. If that makes sense. Can they not be gripped by the holy spirit, but just not have the articulation to know what it is inside them?? Or can some people be be gripped by the holy spirit, but live in a world of such thick intellectual shame at such an idea that their is an intellectual/spiritual confusion inside of them? I think about spiritual discernment vs intellectual discernment and how they might butt heads sometimes, God knows they have in me 1,000 times. I'm just throwing out my 2 cents by the way, just thinking out loud. I'm not claiming to be have the answers. I just can only understand things through my own eyes.

 

[cvanwey]

I believe that the Bible telling you to 'Believe' in Jesus can become more complex than it sounds.

I believe that they can go to heaven, depending on who they are of course. The Bible was written in a very direct way, and was very directly addressed to people in the context of prophets, the Messiah, and apostles. And it was very bold because it was to be a guide for generations & generations, so I think it had no choice but to be in your face & bold.

However I think 'Belief in Jesus' can reach more gray areas then people think. I think sometimes I can look at the life of an 'Intellectual' non-Christian and actually see a belief in Jesus in how they live. If that makes sense. Can they not be gripped by the holy spirit, but just not have the articulation to know what it is inside them?? Or can some people be be gripped by the holy spirit, but live in a world of such thick intellectual shame at such an idea that their is an intellectual/spiritual confusion inside of them? I think about spiritual discernment vs intellectual discernment and how they might butt heads sometimes, God knows they have in me 1,000 times. I'm just throwing out my 2 cents by the way, just thinking out loud. I'm not claiming to be have the answers. I just can only understand things through my own eyes.

Okay, fair enough. However, this begs the next question... If the whipped out tribe goes to heaven, because all God believing and attempting 'moral' individuals go to heaven (whom never were given the news of Jesus specifically), then why do Christians attempt to spread the Word to non-Christians of so many nations they feel have never heard of Jesus?

Wouldn't it be wise to instead remain silent? This way, more will go to heaven. You have to admit, a fair majority are going to reject the claim, and are 'then without excuse.' I also understand this conflicts with verses, such as Mark 16:15-16. However, the intention of not proselytizing appears to be the 'better' of the two options to save more souls. If there was a tribe of 100, and all dies, all 100 would go. If there was prior proselytizing, it's safe to say at least half would then not, as many would not accept the news genuinely (as they remain indoctrinated into their life long religious beliefs instead).

But then one could state. "No, you tell the unformed, and they will then tell others and spread the word to many." But again, this would be an assumption, since most do not change life long beliefs, based upon a brief encounter from an opposing religious viewpoint, especially after life-long indoctrination into their current belief system.

Your thoughts?

 

[Dirk1540]

Okay, fair enough. However, this begs the next question... If the whipped out tribe goes to heaven, because all God believing and attempting 'moral' individuals go to heaven (whom never were given the news of Jesus specifically), then why do Christians attempt to spread the Word to non-Christians of so many nations they feel have never heard of Jesus?

Wouldn't it be wise to instead remain silent? This way, more will go to heaven. You have to admit, a fair majority are going to reject the claim, and are 'then without excuse.' I also understand this conflicts with verses, such as Mark 16:15-16. However, the intention of not proselytizing appears to be the 'better' of the two options to save more souls. If there was a tribe of 100, and all dies, all 100 would go. If there was prior proselytizing, it's safe to say at least half would then not, as many would not accept the news genuinely (as they remain indoctrinated into their life long religious beliefs instead).

But then one could state. "No, you tell the unformed, and they will then tell others and spread the word to many." But again, this would be an assumption, since most do not change life long beliefs, based upon a brief encounter from an opposing religious viewpoint, especially after life-long indoctrination into their current belief system.

Your thoughts?

I did notice you in another thread lol so you may be hopping around and missed my final paragraph but I did say this in a prior post...

Now, does this mean that my attitude is 'Whatever, pick whatever belief you want!' No, for 2 reasons. #1 a respect thing. It would kind of feel like me not caring about giving respect to my dad, like not caring about people saying that my dad was not a good dad. And #2 I believe that there is a force in the world where Christianity (not fake Christians) has a positive domino effect on everything, where the more it is practiced the better the chain reaction is on the world...and the more it is violated (starting with hypocrite Christians) the more of a bad chain reaction that takes place.

...again just my 2 cents.

As for 'They are without excuse' and verses like that...I'm not trying to pull a sleight of hand. It's just that I have a very strange (according to the fact that I don't bump into other Christians saying the things I say) history of having a very complicated mixture of intellectual belief vs volitional belief. I actually have talked about this several times in here, whether or not anyone cares or is listening haha. But I've had separate times in my life where my intellect & volition moved in tandem...if I sincerely turned to Jesus my intellect (very strangely) went with it, then I had a times in my life where they did not move in tandem.

And it was very strange, because a lot of my life was spent intellectually teetering. I had both objections against Christianity that I found convincing, AND arguments for Christianity that I found convincing. It was very strange that a lot of times the intellectual weight of objections would literally melt away to pretty much nothing because of a volitional decision that had no intellectual content to it whatsoever. And I would recognize it too right there in the moment and say to myself "This makes no sense at all but I believe now...yet I wasn't sure yesterday" So yeah, 'Believing in Jesus' vs 'Intellectual Belief in Jesus facts' is a tricky subject for me. Also, there were SOME times where an intellectual change of mind was able to move my volitional choice...but it was always much more powerful in the opposite direction.

The feelings that take place are hard to explain, but they do make me think to myself a lot "What about a person having this seasaw of feeling, who has no clue that Christianity even exists?"

And because of this complicated mixture, I do not believe that I can condemn a person who never heard of Jesus by running up to them on their death bed and telling them about the gospels, and them looking back at me with confusing doubt, and then dying (having not intellectually believed what I just said). From my own experience there's definitely something more to it than intellect. But having said that I do believe that intellectual reasoning is important lol, complicated for me.

 

[Chinchilla]

Wouldn't it be wise to instead remain silent?

Correct it would be best to remain silient .

Assumption : The one who did not hear about God is not guilty
1) If we send Missionary he could believe or not
a) If he believe then he is saved
b) If he does not believe then he is damned


Pure statistic chance says that we should not send Missionary because there are less saved than damned according to Bible therefore sending Missionary would be worst idea possible , because the one who never heared about God would change his status from innocent and saved to 51% or more guilty and damned and only 49% or less to saved .

Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version (KJV)

However this is not the cause God clearly said that nobody is without excuse because creation itself is validating that God exists and they have enought evidence .

Romans 1:18-32 King James Version (KJV)

Do they go to heaven or hell?

If they believed in God they were saved , if not they will go to hell and then be judged at Great White Throne Judgement

 

[ViaCrucis]

A remote group of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

At the most basic level nobody is qualified to answer that question. Personally I take the position of hope, it is my hope and prayer that everyone will, ultimately, share in the life of the age to come. That isn't merely a passing sentiment, but an earnest hope--I hope that when all is said and done "Hell" is empty, and all have life from, in, and with God in the future world.

Nobody here is qualified to answer to who is "in" and who is "out", because we're not God. God alone is judge; but we can hope and we can pray, we can put our trust in the kindness, mercy, and justice of God which we have seen revealed to us through Jesus, and therefore trust that God is the God who, as our Scriptures teach, desires the salvation of all and is the Savior of all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tigger45]

God will only judge them according to the knowledge they've been given.

Romans 2:12-29 New International Version (NIV)
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A remote group of Zimbabwe tribe members become recently exterminated by means of genocide from a neighboring tribe. There were many members, in which none of them had ever heard of, or had been taught about Jesus Christ in any way. They are now all dead.

Do they go to heaven or hell?

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

Yahweh knows. Unless Yahweh reveals to someone, they don't know.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I appreciate the response, but I did not seem to get an answer? According to the Bible, do they go to heaven or hell? Your response seems to possibly suggest 'heaven'? But I want to be clear.

According to the Bible, most of the world population is resurrected to judgment.
A few are resurrected to eternal life.

Who is who ? Yahweh knows.

 

[cvanwey]

Correct it would be best to remain silient .

Assumption : The one who did not hear about God is not guilty
1) If we send Missionary he could believe or not
a) If he believe then he is saved
b) If he does not believe then he is damned


Pure statistic chance says that we should not send Missionary because there are less saved than damned according to Bible therefore sending Missionary would be worst idea possible , because the one who never heared about God would change his status from innocent and saved to 51% or more guilty and damned and only 49% or less to saved .

Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version (KJV)

However this is not the cause God clearly said that nobody is without excuse because creation itself is validating that God exists and they have enought evidence .

Romans 1:18-32 King James Version (KJV)


If they believed in God they were saved , if not they will go to hell and then be judged at Great White Throne Judgement

To be clear, are you saying that one must profess believing in a 'God', practically any God, to acknowledge a creation? And if it happens to not be Yahweh, such an individual would instead be 'judged' postmortem, based upon their acts/works?

 

[cvanwey]

God will only judge them according to the knowledge they've been given.

Romans 2:12-29 New International Version (NIV)
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Would it be safe to then say, if one is genuine in their faith, and hopes and wishes the best for others abroad, it may be safer not to proselytize Christianity to individuals whom have not heard of Jesus Christ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Would it be safe to then say, if one is genuine in their faith, and hopes and wishes the best for others abroad, it may be safer not to proselytize Christianity to individuals whom have not heard of Jesus Christ?

No.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This was just posted in another thread, unrelated to this thread, but fits perfect here:
TLB
He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen when they sin, even though they never had God’s written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong. God’s laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them, or sometimes excuses them. And God will punish the Jews for sinning because they have his written laws but don’t obey them. They know what is right but don’t do it. After all, salvation is not given to those who know what to do, unless they do it.

 

[Chinchilla]

To be clear, are you saying that one must profess believing in a 'God', practically any God, to acknowledge a creation? And if it happens to not be Yahweh, such an individual would instead be 'judged' postmortem, based upon their acts/works?

Basically I say that creation is evidence of existing supreme being which caused this creation .

There is such thing as age of accountability . Some people say it's 20 years old . Kids dying are innocent and are covered by Blood of Christ .

But overall most people are judged at Great White Throne Judgement based on thier work after they have been resurrected , but if you commited one act of disoebedience you will be guilty and punished for eternity in lake of fire .

So let's say there is 50 year old guy in africa who was praying to some God and doing rituals to please him and such . This person will be in lake of fire .

But if that person was convicted of sin and knew that he is guilty . God has ways to reveal himself to people through visions , dreams so he could be saved if he wanted to . He has to believe in Yahoshua to be saved there is no other way .