Heaven and Hell

[JohnB445]

I have been studying a lot of about what happens after we die. This is my findings, please give me corrections if I mistake something but this is what I'm seeing.

To go to heaven you need to be born again, or if you are Jewish and observe the laws, or have no sin at all in your lifetime, or happen to be the elect/144,000.

Those are the only exceptions?

For babies that may have died tragically, I can conclude that they are most likely going to heaven.

But as in for the mentally disabled, or people who have not heard the gospel/people who never knew who Jesus was. I don't know I can't find scripture for this part.

But I do know God is just.

 

[bcbsr]

I have been studying a lot of about what happens after we die. This is my findings, please give me corrections if I mistake something but this is what I'm seeing.

To go to heaven you need to be born again, or if you are Jewish and observe the laws, or have no sin at all in your lifetime, or happen to be the elect/144,000.

Those are the only exceptions?

For babies that may have died tragically, I can conclude that they are most likely going to heaven.

But as in for the mentally disabled, or people who have not heard the gospel/people who never knew who Jesus was. I don't know I can't find scripture for this part.

But I do know God is just.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and "no one is justified by the law" Gal 3:11 for no one actually keeps the law. And as for the 144000, there are different viewpoints of eschatology. I would classify them as believers.

I would not generalize "born again" as the condition for salvation, but rather all who are of the faith are justified by faith. That would include not only believing Christians, but others like Abraham and David who were justified by faith (Romans 4 speaks of them)

No exceptions are spoken of in the scriptures, like regarding babies and the mentally ill, so can't say conclusively that they are exceptions

 

[mmksparbud]

I have been studying a lot of about what happens after we die. This is my findings, please give me corrections if I mistake something but this is what I'm seeing.

To go to heaven you need to be born again, or if you are Jewish and observe the laws, or have no sin at all in your lifetime, or happen to be the elect/144,000.

Those are the only exceptions?

For babies that may have died tragically, I can conclude that they are most likely going to heaven.

But as in for the mentally disabled, or people who have not heard the gospel/people who never knew who Jesus was. I don't know I can't find scripture for this part.

But I do know God is just.

But I do know God is just.

And that is all we really need to know! God is love, mercy, justice. Those are not His attributes--they are what He is.

Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Act_2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act_4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

God knows the heart of us all. We are judged according to what light we have been shown. Those that never heard of His name, still had that still small voice in them that they either followed or ignored. He knows those that followed His voice. The mentally defective He still knows what their limitations are.

 

[Greg J.]

I have been studying a lot of about what happens after we die. This is my findings, please give me corrections if I mistake something but this is what I'm seeing.

To go to heaven you need to be born again, or if you are Jewish and observe the laws, or have no sin at all in your lifetime, or happen to be the elect/144,000.

Those are the only exceptions?

For babies that may have died tragically, I can conclude that they are most likely going to heaven.

But as in for the mentally disabled, or people who have not heard the gospel/people who never knew who Jesus was. I don't know I can't find scripture for this part.

But I do know God is just.

I haven't run into much about the 144,000, and haven't looked into it serious myself because all the rest of Scripture addresses the subject thoroughly IMO. The things I've heart from people about the 144,000 has either had errors, unjustifiable assumptions, or unjustifiable deductions, so I wouldn't concern yourself with that for now, other than, if you so desire, to study the related Biblical verses yourself / ask God about them.

Regarding people who did not get the opportunity to make a moral decision (thereby choosing or rejecting God) such as babies, Scripture does not address this in an unassailable way. Some people apply what God said about adults to babies and others don't. While wondering about it as it applies to babies, God showed me this:

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (Romans 9:15, 1984 NIV)

What is in your heart when you die is what determines where you go. In your heart, did you really believe in God and trust that the Son of God died for you so you could be forgiven for your sins against your Creator, and in your heart was Jesus your Lord (the one who has the right to tell you what is right and wrong and to hold you accountable for doing what is right)?

In studying this issue, it is often helpful to remember what the thief on the cross "did" to be saved.

As for what happens to those who are saved when they die:

“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:56, 1984 NIV)

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8, 1984 NIV)

And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your fathers, ... (Deuteronomy 31:16, 1984 NIV)

When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, ... (2 Samuel 7:12a, 1984 NIV)

 

[Hazelelponi]

I have been studying a lot of about what happens after we die. This is my findings, please give me corrections if I mistake something but this is what I'm seeing.

To go to heaven you need to be born again, or if you are Jewish and observe the laws, or have no sin at all in your lifetime, or happen to be the elect/144,000.

Those are the only exceptions?

For babies that may have died tragically, I can conclude that they are most likely going to heaven.

But as in for the mentally disabled, or people who have not heard the gospel/people who never knew who Jesus was. I don't know I can't find scripture for this part.

But I do know God is just.

A baby doesn't actually sin (no time for it, no understanding of right from wrong), so yes a baby who dies will see heaven.

As far as Jews prior to the New Covenant, they made it into heaven on the same basis we do; Jesus justified them. Jesus was their savior.

This is why there was so much emphasis put on believing in the inheritance without seeing its fulfillment in the old testament - that is what Abraham did. Everyone who did the same of all the Jews were justified by Christ because the law justified no one, it just let them see their need of Grace.

A solid reading the first three chapters of Romans will help you with that understanding and of course Jesus is the fulfilment of all the prophecies of the Old Testament ( Luke 24:44 ; Romans 3:21-22 ; Hebrews 1:1-3)

But no, no one has ever been justified by the law, and in the New Covenant age, Jews need to accept the Messiah in order to get accepted into Heaven, the same as Gentiles do. We have seen the fulfilment of prophecy, so salvation is no longer based on a hope not seen, but rather on Jesus who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

The 144,000 was simply a description from God of a perfect number of saved Jews from every tribe. It's not a fixed number but rather a description.

For people who have never heard of Jesus, they are judged according to the law which is written on their heart. Every single human being has a sense of Gods law, of right and wrong ingrained in them. You'll find the passage in Romans 2:12-16. It won't justify them though, because as already mentioned, no one is justified by the law.

Everyone needs the Messiah.

As far as disabled who, like babies can't understand. God's Grace extends to whomever God wills... and so we do trust in his nature which is also love.

 

[Greg J.]

A baby doesn't actually sin (no time for it, no understanding of right from wrong), so yes a baby who dies will see heaven.

(However, a baby has inherited Adam's nature).

 

[Hazelelponi]

(However, a baby has inherited Adam's nature).

yes but it's not fully realized into a human being who sins yet.

We aren't judged based on our capacity to sin but rather on sin itself - our actions.

 

[Greg J.]

yes but it's not fully realized into a human being who sins yet.

Do you have a Scripture for that?

The consequences of having a sinful nature don't have anything to do with being judged for our actions, but they still come to pass (Romans 5:13-14).

 

[Hazelelponi]

Do you have a Scripture for that?

The consequences of having a sinful nature don't have anything to do with being judged for our actions, but they still come to pass (Romans 5:13-14).

Ezekiel 18:19-20
Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:29
In those days [New Covenant Age] they shall no longer say: “‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.’ But everyone shall die for his own sin.

I see nowhere in the Bible a God who punishes an infant in hell simply for being born.

However, since there are some who believe in infant baptism then I won't reply again on this side-topic so as not to take this topic away from the intent of the OP. It is my belief that belief is required for salvation and that God doesn't punish those who are innocent and have not had time to come to belief in Christ or time to develop a sense of the law such as unbelievers have.

 

[Greg J.]

...
I see nowhere in the Bible a God who punishes an infant in hell simply for being born.

Thanks, those are good verses.

It isn't punishment that we are born with a sinful nature. It is the consequence of being born human (descendants of Adam). You might say that it has nothing to do with God. The many passages from Paul about our sinful nature are not dependent on God making a judgement, but on the fact that we have a sinful nature because we are descended from Adam.

Salvation is comprised of two things: (1) being forgiven by God (for which the door was opened by Jesus, but we still have to know to go through and choose to go through) and, (2) God giving us a rebirth in Christ (which, in my interpretation of Scripture, God doesn't grant to adults unless they are forgiven). Scripture doesn't talk about them as two parts of salvation, but does make references to them as different features of salvation. It is the latter (rebirth) that makes our sinful nature pass away. However, this topic is only covered in Scripture directly for adults that have had the choice to choose or reject God.

The choices for what to believe are (1) God is love and forgiveness, and he will grants those infants a rebirth, (2) nothing happens in the infant's life that meets God's criteria (for adults) for rebirth, so they are condemned. It isn't their fault, but it is the result of their nature. Or (3) We don't know what God will do for sure, but God is loving and just and we can trust him no matter what he does.

Fortunately, no matter what we believe about (1) and (2) we should include (3), because

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9, 1984 NIV)

But, this is indeed a side topic, so I'll leave it at that. Thanks again for those verses. I hadn't ever thought of applying the spirit of them to people who haven't had the chance to make a decision for Christ.

 

[Daisybell]

[QUOTE="JohnB445, post: 73152461, member: 412538" For babies that may have died tragically, I can conclude that they are most likely going to heaven. But as in for the mentally disabled, or people who have not heard the gospel/people who never knew who Jesus was. I don't know I can't find scripture for this part. But I do know God is just.[/QUOTE]

Anyone who knows God will agree that He IS just and NOT unfair to the billions of people who have never heard of the name Jesus Christ or even the UNBELIEVERS who never got a chance to know Him.
The answer is explained in your Bible... but most people overlook it or choose to remain with their traditional teaching of "heaven and hell". Actually the answer is about the resurrections described in God's Word and taught by Jesus and His Disciples AND the Apostolic 1st Century Church.

What Happens When You Die?
What does the Bible say about death? What are the 1st and 2nd resurrections mentioned in the Bible? What does it say about living after death? What happens to faithful, repentant Christians? What happens to those who lived bad lives during this life? Will they ever have a chance? The Bible actually has many clear passages that answer these questions.

What Happens After Death?
After you die, do you expect to “roll around heaven all day”? Or might you spend eternity burning in hellfire? Your Bible reveals awesome truth about the eternal purpose for which God created you and your loved ones.

What Happens When You Die?
One of the greatest mysteries in life is the question of death and the afterlife. What happens when you die? Will you go to heaven? Will you go to hell? Will you be reincarnated? Or is there no afterlife at all?

Have you ever gone to a very old cemetery (like civil war days and before that time?) Many tombstones have "resurrection" engraved on them. That is what your Bible teaches.
The Truth you probably never heard to really understand about death of unbelievers. A loving God does not allow them to burn in hell forever as many mainstream Christians teach or "Purgatory" (a condition of suffering and purification that leads to union with God in heaven) as the Catholics teach.

How Many Resurrections?
In the book of Revelation, we find that when Christ returns, Satan will be incarcerated and bound in the abyss for 1,000 years. When Christ returns, the faithful saints will be immortalized. "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4–6).

The first resurrection, as it is called, is for the saints—faithful Christians. But if there is a "first" resurrection, there is also a "second" resurrection. The Apostle Paul spoke about the order of resurrections, explaining that Jesus Christ is the "firstfruits"—the first to be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:20)—followed by those who are Christ’s (v. 23). After these come the "rest of the dead" mentioned in Revelation 20:5.
The "rest of the dead" are those who will come under judgment. They will be resurrected to physical life. But notice the good news concerning this judgment. After the Kingdom of God rules on this earth for a thousand years, there will be a great resurrection of billions of people to judgment. It is referred to as the White Throne Judgment. "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God [this is the second resurrection], and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books" (Revelation 20:11–12).
The Greek word for "books" is biblion. The books, or the Bible, are opened to the understanding of the masses of people for the first time. The resurrection to physical life from the valley of dry bones, described by the prophet Ezekiel, also takes place at this time. The Book of Life is finally opened to all of them. This will be their first opportunity to really learn the truth. This is not a second chance as some would like to call it. All human beings will be held accountable for their actions and thoughts. But this will be their first time for many to see their sins, to have the opportunity to repent of their sins, and to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Yes, there is hope for non-Christians. Most of them will wait in the grave until the White Throne Judgment and then have their first opportunity to learn the truth and God’s way of life.

Then, ultimately, will come the final punishment for those who have sealed their conscience and their character to reject the love of God and the sacrifice of Christ. These incorrigibly wicked will be burned in the lake of fire and totally destroyed. Their souls and bodies will be destroyed in Gehenna fire, as Jesus said.
The comforting news is that no human being who has ever lived and died is now suffering. Death is the absence of life. "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The dead experience no conscious passing of time, they know nothing. So, in the next split-second of their consciousness, they will awaken in the resurrection.
Jesus Christ said: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live" (John 11:25). Yes, there is life after death—our hope is the resurrection! To those who really respond to His calling, who really repent and are baptized and who are faithful to their Savior, Jesus Christ, God promises a glorious future in Tomorrow’s World!

 

[ac28]

Except for Christ, no one has EVER gone to Heaven
John 3:13
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

The only group of people with a Hope of going to the Highest Heaven, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, are those members of the Gentile church today, found only in Paul's 7 books written after Acts, Ephesians 1:20 (Christ), Ephesians 2:6 (Us - same place as Christ in 1:20). No one in the other 59, all-Israel books, are ever said to have a hope of this Highest Heaven. Israel's hope was always the land (New Earth) or the all-Israel New Jerusalem, which comes down out of the starry New Heavens and attaches to the New Earth (paradise). When Christ ascended, He passed through these created starry Heavens ( Hebrews 4:14 ) to get to the uncreated Highest Heaven.

Everyone that has ever died is still in the grave. Those that are saved are dead, but are said to be asleep, since, when they are resurrected (born again), it will has been as though they were asleep. Those that are unsaved are permanently dead and will never be heard from again. These non-believers will never be resurrected. There is no second chance.

The concept of Hell, where our loving God tortures those that don't believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, is a man-made, non-biblical, pagan idea. This concept doesn't appear in the texts. It only appears in the translations, where 4 totally unrelated, non-hell words are falsely translated as "hell."

The concept that man HAS a soul and that soul is immortal, is another non-biblical pagan concept. It was devised to satisfy Satan's lie in the garden, "Ye shall not surely die." In the Bible, man IS a soul, either a living soul, Genesis 2:7 , or a dead soul, Ezekiel 18:20 .

 

[mmksparbud]

Except for Christ, no one has EVER gone to Heaven
John 3:13
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

The only group of people with a Hope of going to the Highest Heaven, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, is the Gentile church today, found only in Paul's 7 books written after Acts, Ephesians 1:20 (Christ), Ephesians 2:6 (Us - same place as Christ in 1:20). No one in the other 59, all-Israel books, are ever said to have a hope of this Highest Heaven. Israel's hope was always the land (New Earth) or the all-Israel New Jerusalem, which comes down out of the starry New Heavens and attaches to the New Earth (paradise). When Christ ascended, He passed through these created starry Heavens ( Hebrews 4:14 ) to get to the uncreated Highest Heaven.

Everyone that has ever died is still in the grave. Those that are saved are dead, but are said to be asleep, since, when they are resurrected (born again), it will has been as though they were asleep. Those that are unsaved are permanently dead and will never be heard from again. These non-believers will never be resurrected. There is no second chance.

The concept of Hell, where our loving God tortures those that don't believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, is a man-made, non-biblical, pagan idea. This concept doesn't appear in the texts. It only appears in the translations, where 4 totally unrelated, non-hell words are falsely translated as "hell."

The concept that man HAS a soul and that soul is immortal, is another non-biblical pagan concept. It was devised to satisfy Satan's lie in the garden, "Ye shall not surely die." In the Bible, man IS a soul, either a living soul, Genesis 2:7 , or a dead soul, Ezekiel 18:20 .

Except for Enoch and Elijah -both translated--and Moses was resurrected. And nobody knows what happened to those that came up at the death of Christ.

 

[ac28]

Except for Enoch and Elijah -both translated--and Moses was resurrected. And nobody knows what happened to those that came up at the death of Christ.

John 3:13 speaks of where Christ ascended to, the uncreated Heavenly places (Ephesians 1:20), far above the created starry heavens (Satan's abode) that Christ passed through in Hebrews 4:14 and where the New Jerusalem will come down from. Enoch and Elijah may have gone into the starry Heavens but NEVER the Heavenly Places, according to John 3:13

It never says Moses was resurrected, if you're talking about during the transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-8 . In vs 9, it says this was a VISION,

I repeat. Except for Christ, no one has EVER gone to Heaven. John 3:13

Also, in Hebrews 11:13, it says these all died, which includes Enoch, vs 5.

 

[mmksparbud]

John 3:13 speaks of where Christ ascended to, the uncreated Heavenly places (Ephesians 1:20), far above the created starry heavens (Satan's abode) that Christ passed through in Hebrews 4:14 and where the New Jerusalem will come down from. Enoch and Elijah may have gone into the starry Heavens but NEVER the Heavenly Places, according to John 3:13

It never says Moses was resurrected, if you're talking about during the transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-8 . In vs 9, it says this was a VISION,

I repeat. Except for Christ, no one has EVER gone to Heaven. John 3:13

Ephesians is speaking of the abode of God--where Jesus is now, seated at the right hand of God, where the heavenly Temple is in which Christ is presiding as our High Priest. ---Christ did not go to "uncreated places"----if it's uncreated---then it isn't there. Elijah and Enoch are with God.--and so is Moses.
You are free to believe whatever you want.

 

[ac28]

Ephesians is speaking of the abode of God--where Jesus is now, seated at the right hand of God, where the heavenly Temple is in which Christ is presiding as our High Priest. ---Christ did not go to "uncreated places"----if it's uncreated---then it isn't there. Elijah and Enoch are with God.--and so is Moses.
You are free to believe whatever you want.

I certainly thank you for giving me the freedom to believe what I want.

Heavenly Places (this phrase in the Greek occurs only in Ephesians - 5 times - same as the Heaven of Heavens, Far Above All Heavens, Glory, the Holiest of All) is uncreated because it IS God and He encompasses all (when He wants to), the starry heavens and the earth. God is the Heaven of Heavens - Glory.