Heaven and Hell are the same place...

[Gabriel Anton]

...the presence of God. Whether we like His presence or not depends on whether we love God or hate Him, whether we are good or evil, on the quality of our character and the degree of our moral stature.

All these are largely independent of our beliefs, though the right beliefs may assist us in developing our spirit as He intended.

So I contend.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Peace be with you.

What kind of Theology is this?

Do you know sleeping on a bed and sleeping in a coffin is the same thing because you sleep in both?

Do you know your mouth and your anus is kind of the same thing because they are both holes?

I guess Theology of this kind is the sign of the times.

God bless you.

 

[Strivax]

Well, I must say I am encouraged by the responses so far. Lots of complaints that I am unbiblical, but none that I am irrational, or that challenge my reasoning. Perhaps you have no substantive objections, only ideological differences.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Greg J.]

You're encouraged when you should be shaking in your boots. The words of God, Biblical truth, always overrides so-called rationality. Most of those who stand condemned already (John 3:18) can think rationally.

 

[Strivax]

Thank you for your comment, Greg J, but I beg to differ. Before God made the world, He needed to make the laws of biology, chemistry, and physics, on which the world depends. And before He made even those, He needed to make the rules of mathematics, and reason, and logic, on which those laws depend. And where Biblical 'truth' departs from these, then I depart from Biblical 'truth'. Confidently.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Greg J.]

Biblical truth does not depart from any of those. The effects of sin do.

 

[Strivax]

Biblical truth does not depart from any of those....

But I think it does. I have proposed a perfectly reasonable, perfectly rational, theory of salvation that avoids many of the moral problems that afflict the Biblical view. So, what is your problem?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

Error

 

[Greg J.]

Re: Heaven and Hell are the same place...

...the presence of God.

This is a proposition. Multiple lines of logic proves it incorrect.

Whether we like His presence or not depends on whether we love God or hate Him,
whether we are good or evil,
on the quality of our character
and the degree of our moral stature.

These are propositions. There is evidence in Scripture of this both being true and being untrue.

All these are largely independent of our beliefs,

This is a proposition which logic from a knowledge of psychology and epistemology invalidates.

though the right beliefs may assist us in developing our spirit as He intended.

This is a proposition. The logic of the Truth found in Scripture proves it incorrect.

 

[Left]

Whether or not I agree with Strivax, I have got to stand up for him for his thought and his patience in this thread.

 

[Left]

So your conclusions need to be tested with the Bible. I believe that if something is true, it leads to more truth. If your beliefs don't fit in with the Bible, there is likely some error somewhere.

The way you have presented your beliefs, I can almost see what you mean... the problem is, your ideas seem to contradict the Bible.

Do you agree that "Philosophical truths lead to Truth? (By Truth I mean the Bible)"

 

[Strivax]

Re: Heaven and Hell are the same place...

...the presence of God.

This is a proposition. Multiple lines of logic proves it incorrect.

So that's good. Someone who wishes to debate on grounds of logic. Please expound.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

So your conclusions need to be tested with the Bible. I believe that if something is true, it leads to more truth. If your beliefs don't fit in with the Bible, there is likely some error somewhere.

The way you have presented your beliefs, I can almost see what you mean... the problem is, your ideas seem to contradict the Bible.

Do you agree that "Philosophical truths lead to Truth? (By Truth I mean the Bible)"

So, in this instance, I have to come clean. I believe I am right, and the Bible is wrong. And I believe that so completely, I am entirely ready to go to the traditional 'lake of fire', should God decide to dispose of my soul that way. I just don't think God would send anyone there, for the pursuit of His truth of the matter.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Left]

So, in this instance, I have to come clean. I believe I am right, and the Bible is wrong. And I believe that so completely, I am entirely ready to go to the traditional 'lake of fire', should God decide to dispose of my soul that way. I just don't think God would send anyone there, for the pursuit of His truth of the matter.

Right. So wouldn't it make more sense to have some sort of guide to test your logical/philosophical beliefs to see whether or not they are correct?

I am talking about the Bible.

If you answer "The Holy Spirit will simply guide me in the truth", I will point to a real world of confusion, even among Christians, and say there is more evidence of the Bible being real, than the Holy Spirit power guiding us in our footsteps.

 

[Strivax]

Actually, surprising as it might seem, my guide in the matter is this forum. I am less interested in what the Bible says, than in what people make of what it says. I am less interested in Biblical assertions, than the grounds people have for believing those assertions. In fact, I just love free debate! I think it edifies us all.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Left]

Actually, surprising as it might seem, my guide in the matter is this forum.

I call such a thing "opinion-based logic", and I have experienced it before.

If you ever want to just talk or hit me with ideas, my PM box is open. We seem to have similar goals in some ways.

 

[Strivax]

I call such a thing "opinion-based logic", and I have experienced it before.

Uh huh. I am, of course, happy when people agree with me. But when people want to disagree, and have good reason for that disagreement, I am happy then, too. It's a challenge! And when people want to disagree, and have no good reason to disagree, well, that is significant, also.

Anyway, thank you for your invitation. I may well be in touch.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Greg J.]

I believe God chose every word and letter in Scripture. The people that are equipped to get people to the point where they believe that are Christian Apologists (for which there is a forum). My perfect or imperfect logic (and my certain imperfect knowledge) has nothing to do with the reality of God and Truth.

My knowledge, understanding, and logic are simply potential aids to those who are seeking to know God themselves who are willing consider what I say. But apart from their own desire to humble themselves before God and learn from Him, my words are nothing. All human thinking and reasoning is tainted by sin.

We only find God through imperfect understanding and by faith in Him and only continue as his followers by faith. We only hear the Truth through humans by faith. As it is written, those who are right in God's eyes are those that live by faith in Him. Scripture is one of the avenues for that, but apart from God Himself, it is just words and ideas.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones. (Proverbs 3:5-8, 1984 NIV)

 

[Strivax]

Re: Heaven and Hell are the same place...

This is a proposition. Multiple lines of logic proves it incorrect.

So that's good. Someone who wishes to debate on grounds of logic. Please expound.

I believe God chose every word and letter in Scripture...

So, rather than arguing in a rational, logical fashion, and engaging with the points I made in favour of my position, as I had hoped you would, you simply state a belief that the Bible is infallible and inerrant, and abandon reason altogether. This does not strike me as a method by which humanity can possibly make any theological progress. Reason, in my opinion, is fundamental to understanding God; we know the universe is amenable to rational enquiry, because of the progress science has made. Indeed, the God-made universe yields its secrets only to rational enquiry. There is no reason why theology should be any different.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

So, rather than arguing in a rational, logical fashion, as I had hoped you would, you simply believe the Bible to be infallible and inerrant, and abandon reason altogether. This does not strike me as a method by which humanity can possibly make any theological progress. Reason, in my opinion, is fundamental to understanding God; we know the universe is amenable to rational enquiry, because of the progress science has made. Indeed, the God-made universe yields its secrets only to rational enquiry. There is no reason why theology should be any different.

So, moving on.

One of the advantages of this idea is that one does not have to consign anyone to eternal torment. There is no crime, no sin, committed in finite time that I can see justifies everlasting torture as being a just and merciful and loving response. And we know God is both just and merciful, and loves us all.

So, instead of separate Heaven and Hell, we have a situation where the sinful miscreant (which means all of us, to greater or lesser degrees) gets confronted with absolute Good, gets to recognise where they are at, gets to accept or reject God's forgiveness, and gets to repent, if and when they choose, and gets to atone, if and when they choose. Clearly this process will be the more difficult and the more painful the deeper sunk in sin the individual is. And so both Justice and Mercy are served.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Peace be with you.

By your logic and reasoning since Heaven and Hell are the same place, I would argue with you that being virtuous and doing good is irrelevant because that would put God out of a job since God loves to save sinners.

Since Heaven and Hell are the same place, if sinners were to go there, by your contention, sinners would get their break there and their Hell would turn to Heaven by God because God is Merciful and Gracious.

So then I would contend I was being a sinner to keep God employed and to leave room in Heaven for those more in need of God's Presence than me and so I was being charitable being a sinner keeping God employed and making room in Heaven out of the goodness of my heart.

Since Heaven and Hell is the same place, I would then contend that God should terraform Hell into Heaven to make room for me a sinner because I was a gracious sinner who thought about God and made room for others in Heaven by being a sinner. So basically I loved being a sinner because I was showing love to God and my neighbour.

God bless you.

 

[Strivax]

Peace be with you.

By your logic and reasoning since Heaven and Hell are the same place, I would argue with you that being virtuous and doing good is irrelevant because that would put God out of a job since God loves to save sinners.

Thank you Gabriel Anton, for indulging my penchant for reason.

I do not think, though, that God will ever be out of a job saving sinners, such as humanity is by nature. The very fact that we feel our own needs, wants and desires more keenly than those of others inclines us towards selfishness, and fundamentally all sin is selfishness.

Since Heaven and Hell are the same place, if sinners were to go there, by your contention, sinners would get their break there and their Hell would turn to Heaven by God because God is Merciful and Gracious.

So, God is merciful and gracious. But He can only be such to those who want, need, and love Him. Those who want to reject Him, reject Goodness, reject Justice, reject the Truth about themselves, and reject God's forgiveness, would find it most difficult to repent, atone and be shriven of their sins, such that they could feel the bliss and peace of Heaven that is the presence of God. Such as these would have the hardest path to walk, and so they should. They would have the choice between loving, and hating, complete Goodness, the one heaven, the other hell, and they would have all eternity to make that choice.

Best wishes, Strivax.