Heat Death

[bhsmte]

I don't think it does. I know how I would answer the objection, but I was curious to hear how others would answer it.

The issue is this: Start counting - 0, 1, 2, 3, ...

When do you reach infinity? Never. So, if we call this moment in time zero, and start counting backward, when will we reach the infinite past? Never. If that's the case, then how would someone who started counting in that infinite past ever reach our current time?

Ok, you said your rebuttal does not rule out essentials personal opinion, but then you seem to have a firm roadblock later on.

Are you then saying, that essentials could be right, but you just don't understand everything enough to understand how it could have happened?

 

[essentialsaltes]

With that said, I'm not aware of any hypothesis that would allow a past universe to escape its heat death in order to launch ours.

Even in a universe where 'heat death' has occurred, there will be quantum fluctuations. The idea of eternal or chaotic inflation is that a quantum fluctuation in the inflaton field could trigger an inflationary event that would 'bud off' a new universe in a Big Bang that would reset the thermodynamic clock.

 

[Resha Caner]

Ok, you said your rebuttal does not rule out essentials personal opinion, but then you seem to have a firm roadblock later on.


Are you then saying, that essentials could be right, but you just don't understand everything enough to understand how it could have happened?

I'm not trying to rebutt anything. What I said is that I was unaware of a hypothesis that would solve the issue of heat death.

Heat death came up as a digression in another thread a long time ago. That thread degenerated into chaos, so I never got a satisfactory answer. It's just a matter of curiosity for me to go back and tie off that thread. I think I can understand whatever answer is given.

Even in a universe where 'heat death' has occurred, there will be quantum fluctuations. The idea of eternal or chaotic inflation is that a quantum fluctuation in the inflaton field could trigger an inflationary event that would 'bud off' a new universe in a Big Bang that would reset the thermodynamic clock.

Yes, at one time I thought this was the answer physics was giving, but in the thread mentioned above I came away with the impression that quantum fluctuation doesn't address the issue - that on average the entropy would remain at a maximum and the fluctuations don't change that.

As I said, though, the previous conversation fell apart. So, it seems you're saying this could pull a universe out of heat death. Doesn't that mean it could also prevent heat death from occurring in the first place?

 

[essentialsaltes]

As I said, though, the previous conversation fell apart. So, it seems you're saying this could pull a universe out of heat death. Doesn't that mean it could also prevent heat death from occurring in the first place?

Inflation happens in such a strange way that the inflated space gets beyond the reach of the original space it was connected to. It's why we speak of universes budding off, or bubbling away.

So universe A in heat death experiences a rare quantum event, and a new universe B pops off and experiences its own Big Bang event.

Universe A is still stuck in heat death.

So inflation doesn't prevent or cure heat death. But it provides for a new hot rescrambling in the new universe.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm not trying to rebutt anything. What I said is that I was unaware of a hypothesis that would solve the issue of heat death.

Heat death came up as a digression in another thread a long time ago. That thread degenerated into chaos, so I never got a satisfactory answer. It's just a matter of curiosity for me to go back and tie off that thread. I think I can understand whatever answer is given.



Yes, at one time I thought this was the answer physics was giving, but in the thread mentioned above I came away with the impression that quantum fluctuation doesn't address the issue - that on average the entropy would remain at a maximum and the fluctuations don't change that.

As I said, though, the previous conversation fell apart. So, it seems you're saying this could pull a universe out of heat death. Doesn't that mean it could also prevent heat death from occurring in the first place?

Ok, I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. The infinite thing, seemed to be a roadblock for you, but maybe I misinterpreted that.

In essence then, you would agree that essentials opinion is possible?

 

[Michael]

Ok, I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. The infinite thing, seemed to be a roadblock for you, but maybe I misinterpreted that.

In essence then, you would agree that essentials opinion is possible?

Would you agree that the God is "possible"? It's really amazing to me how many "supernatural' imaginary constructs that atheists will 'put their faith in', just as long as it doesn't involve the concept of an intelligent creator.

 

[Michael]

As I've stated elsewhere, I have my money on eternal inflation in a form that implies that the (multi)universe is past infinite, with no beginning. This is by no means a sure bet. But you asked what I think, and that's what I think.

So over the whole of infinite time, nothing like a self aware conscious "creator" could or would have have formed in all that time?

You'll note that contrary to early 'hype' on this topic, Bicep2 data actually rules out virtually every "popular" brand of inflation theory on the books:

Cosmic inflation is dead, long live cosmic inflation! - physics-math - 25 September 2014 - New Scientist

Counter to what the BICEP2 collaboration said initially, Parkinson's analysis suggests the BICEP2 results actually rule out any reasonable form of inflationary theory.
Ruled out – possibly

Most inflationary models require that as you look at larger and larger scales of the universe, you should see stronger and stronger gravitational waves. Cosmologists call that a "gravitational wave spectrum".
"What inflation predicted was actually the reverse of what we found," says Parkinson. How many inflationary models does it rule out? "Most of them, to be honest."

 

[bhsmte]

Would you agree that the God is "possible"? It's really amazing to me how many "supernatural' imaginary constructs that atheists will 'put their faith in', just as long as it doesn't involve the concept of an intelligent creator.

Have you ever seen me declare, that a God is impossible?

I don't believe so, because I never have.

Now, when we dig into the types of Gods and the likelihood I believe them possible, I have differing opinions. I am with Al on the personal God thing and find that possibility, as extremely unlikely, but would give more possibility to a universal, non personal God.

Which is why, I call myself atheist towards the Christian or personal Gods and agnostic towards a universal God.

 

[Michael]

Have you ever seen me declare, that a God is impossible?

I don't believe so, because I never have.

Now, when we dig into the types of Gods and the likelihood I believe them possible, I have differing opinions. I am with Al on the personal God thing and find that possibility, as extremely unlikely, but would give more possibility to a universal, non personal God.

Which is why, I call myself atheist towards the Christian or personal Gods and agnostic towards a universal God.

The fact that you and Al haven't/didn't had/have any 'personal' experiences of God hardly requires that is necessarily true for all humans over the whole of time. In fact human literature would suggest exactly the opposite is true. Even one's lack of personal experiences of God does not rule out the possibility of a personally interactive 'creator'.

I share Al's distrust of religion and concepts like hell, etc, but I don't think that really addresses the issue 'scientifically'. I do tend to share one concept about God with him however:

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.

 

[bhsmte]

The fact that you and Al haven't/didn't had/have any 'personal' experiences of God hardly requires that is necessarily true for all humans over the whole of time. In fact human literature would suggest exactly the opposite is true. Even one's lack of personal experiences of God does not rule out the possibility of a personally interactive 'creator'.

I share Al's distrust of religion and concepts like hell, etc, but I don't think that really addresses the issue 'scientifically'. I do tend to share one concept about God with him however:

Michael,

Considering the God concepts have been a part of society for thousands of years and indoctrinated into people very young, with both fear and a carrot involved, I am certainly not surprised people claim to have personal experiences of a God.

In fact, considering how powerful the God concept has been in human society, I would be shocked if the majority of people, didn't claim to have some personal experience they claimed to be God.

That fact of the matter though, despite this powerful concept which is very emotional to some from an early age, belief in a God has been declining for decades and continues to decline. Could be as society has developed, the need for the emotional support from a God concept, has started to slowly wane.

 

[Resha Caner]

So over the whole of infinite time, nothing like a self aware conscious "creator" could or would have have formed in all that time?

It's a question that needs to be asked, and it should be obvious that both you and I think there is a creator. But, just like TEs, a believing physicist could fall back on saying that inflation is the means God uses.

I do have some follow-on questions once this thread dies away, but they're better suited for the philosophy forum, so I wasn't planning on bringing them up here.

You'll note that contrary to early 'hype' on this topic, Bicep2 data actually rules out virtually every "popular" brand of inflation theory on the books:

Thanks for the information. But don't count the idea dead. The aether was supposedly dead, but now we have quantum foam ... different in the details I realize, but they sound very similar when you boil them down to the pop science level. So, the specifics of particular embodiments may die away, but I imagine they will be replaced by others.

In essence then, you would agree that essentials opinion is possible?

Sure. As I said above, one could always hypothesize this is the means used by God.

Inflation happens in such a strange way that the inflated space gets beyond the reach of the original space it was connected to. It's why we speak of universes budding off, or bubbling away.


So universe A in heat death experiences a rare quantum event, and a new universe B pops off and experiences its own Big Bang event.

Universe A is still stuck in heat death.


So inflation doesn't prevent or cure heat death. But it provides for a new hot rescrambling in the new universe.

Thanks for the reply. Any thoughts on the viability of that idea given Michael's objections?

That's not really where I was going, though. I'm more interested in the idea that you seem to be saying space-time is a "thing" - moreso that it is an infinite thing. Would it also be a continous thing?

 

[Resha Caner]

Could be as society has developed, the need for the emotional support from a God concept, has started to slowly wane.

Ebb and flow is nothing new.

 

[Michael]

Michael,

Considering the God concepts have been a part of society for thousands of years and indoctrinated into people very young, with both fear and a carrot involved, I am certainly not surprised people claim to have personal experiences of a God.

In fact, considering how powerful the God concept has been in human society, I would be shocked if the majority of people, didn't claim to have some personal experience they claimed to be God.

That fact of the matter though, despite this powerful concept which is very emotional to some from an early age, belief in a God has been declining for decades and continues to decline. Could be as society has developed, the need for the emotional support from a God concept, has started to slowly wane.

From what scientific study are you actually getting those figures about theism (in general) from? Are you sure it's not *religion* that's waning rather than theism in general? Even assuming that theism, and not just religion waxes and wanes in various societies over time, what evidence do you have that theism will ever not be a "majority" viewpoint? A trend over a few decades, after *thousands* of years of human history hardly sounds like much in they way of 'evidence' from my vantage point.

I would agree that there's a lot of consumer dissatisfaction with religion, but frankly in my case I would say in retrospect that it was was at least partially those 'personal experiences' of God that simply wouldn't jive with my "religion" at that time which caused me to embrace atheism for awhile.

Every conscious "experience" that I had of God as a child was unconditionally loving and peaceful and joyous. Those direct experiences of what I associated with 'God' simply wouldn't jive with a belief in a being that would create some human beings just to torment them eternally. It was the juxtaposition between the 'dogma' of the church and my own personal experiences of God which caused so much internal conflict to start with.

I would say it was also those same "inner experiences" that also eventually caused me to abandon atheism too. I simply couldn't ignore the experiences that I was having during meditation, even though I took up meditation as an 'atheist'.

 

[lesliedellow]

I'm not sure you answered either question. Do you think heat death will occur?

And, wouldn't saying we are only a small percentage into that journey mean the past of the universe (which I'm defining as all that exists) is finite?

Heat death will occur if nothing else intervenes in the meantime. If the universe is a long lived quantum fluctuation, then in principle it could disappear back into the false vacuum at any time.

 

[bhsmte]

Ebb and flow is nothing new.

Agree.

We aren't talking about ebb and flow though, we are talking about consistent decline.

 

[Michael]

Agree.

We aren't talking about ebb and flow though, we are talking about consistent decline.

For a couple of decades over a period of thousands of years of recorded human history?

 

[bhsmte]

From what scientific study are you actually getting those figures about theism (in general) from? Are you sure it's not *religion* that's waning rather than theism in general? Even assuming that theism, and not just religion waxes and wanes in various societies over time, what evidence do you have that theism will ever not be a "majority" viewpoint? A trend over a few decades, after *thousands* of years of human history hardly sounds like much in they way of 'evidence' from my vantage point.

I would agree that there's a lot of consumer dissatisfaction with religion, but frankly in my case I would say in retrospect that it was was at least partially those 'personal experiences' of God that simply wouldn't jive with my "religion" at that time which caused me to embrace atheism for awhile.

Every conscious "experience" that I had of God as a child was unconditionally loving and peaceful and joyous. Those direct experiences of what I associated with 'God' simply wouldn't jive with a belief in a being that would create some human beings just to torment them eternally. It was the juxtaposition between the 'dogma' of the church and my own personal experiences of God which caused so much internal conflict to start with.

I would say it was also those same "inner experiences" that also eventually caused me to abandon atheism too. I simply couldn't ignore the experiences that I was having during meditation, even though I took up meditation as an 'atheist'.

Scientific studies about what exactly?

Would you not agree, that the God concept and the meaning certain people have put on it, provide a very powerful force to people in society, especially young people?

Michael, personal experiences are personal experiences and I am sure yours are very real to you. At the end of the day, they are personal experiences, which can indeed be heavily influenced by your personal psychology.

If they work for you that is terrific. If others don't have them Michael, it doesn't mean they are missing out on something.

 

[Resha Caner]

We aren't talking about ebb and flow though, we are talking about consistent decline.

Until it hits zero and never returns, you don't know that ... or are you claiming a validated quantitative model of human behavior?

 

[bhsmte]

For a couple of decades over a period of thousands of years of recorded human history?

Longer than a couple decades Michael.

 

[bhsmte]

Until it hits zero and never returns, you don't know that ... or are you claiming a validated quantitative model of human behavior?

I am claiming Christianity has been on the decline, for several decades and it has been on the most decline, in countries where the population tends to be more educated. Christianity is growing, mostly in third world countries.

Will it hit zero? I don't see that happening, ever. Does any type of belief really ever hit zero?