Healthcare, lets take one lie head on.

[chaz345]

I dont suppose you have any facts which defend your opinion? I only ask because you continually ask this of others.

Are you an employer? Have you ever used the government system to verify a SS number?

From the Social Security Administration's own page:

Social Security Number Verification Service (SSNVS) - How Employers Can Verify Social Security Numbers Online


It is illegal to use the service to verify SSNs of potential new hires or contractors or in the preparation of tax returns.

So the employer doesn't have access to the information that connects a name to the number, only to a system that tells them whether or not the number is a valid one.

 

[JoyJuice]

I didn't watch Obama's speech last night, but the MSM played a portion that was a bold,faced look the American people in the eye lie.



The CONgress sounded like a townhall meeting, oh, not the ones Obama has set up, but the real ones.
One CONgressman called Obama out, "YOU LIE"

Oh, yes. It is clearly written in the bill I read, immigrants or non-citizens here in the country in other then legal means, are not eligable.
But what the bill doesn't say is where in the process the illegals will be verified?
No where. So lets keep this debate honest. They want to lie to the people, play the shell game with the majority of peoples healthcare, just so the few that didn't have healthcare, can have it.

I call on anyone that wants to improve our COuntry, not their party. To step forward and denounce the lies on both sides.

Remember this. Republicans can do nothing to stop healthcare. Democrats have just short of the super-majority. So they could easily strong arm legislation through, if they themselves supported it.
23 or more Democrats disagree with this bill.

I agree with Obama, lets stop the lies and politics of fear.

But the Democrats can't stop lying. They play on the soft side of the American people, saying we need reform now. To end the suffering of the millions that don't have healthcare. Truth is, they haven't had it for awhile, they can wait the little extra time, to get the bill right(correct).

Obama can deliver a speech. He will get a bounce from the speech, but without substance, his bounce will drop even farther when the people figure out the fluff and sparkle has no basis in truth.

Different thread but same question as you make the assertion with no support. What lie are you refering too?

 

[Ringo84]

It's not a lie.

FactCheck.org:

False: Illegal Immigrants Will Be Covered

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.​

Seven Falsehoods About Health Care | FactCheck.org
Ringo

​

 

[Fantine]

Didn't you know? Rush Limbaugh explained the twisted logic to me on the radio.

Illegal immigrants WON'T be covered.

But those Democrats want amnesty for illegal immigrants (with penalties, a return to Mexico, etc.)

If the "illegal" immigrants get amnesty, they will become "legal."

But, of course, to Rush Limbaugh, once an illegal, always an illegal, no matter what the government says....

There was an amnesty, I believe, in the late 1980's....but I guess they're still illegal to Rush...

So I am assuming the headline for this thread refers to Rush Limbaugh.

 

[DieHappy]

There's only one insurer in IL (plus medicare and medicaid - the two government insurers) that uses social security # for the insurance cards, and that one offers a new number to any who ask for it.

And getting a SSN for an illegal is like buying liquor when you're 20.

And the congressional hispanic caucus believes that illegals will be covered...

 

[Ringo84]

There are holes in any system. It doesn't mean that we should scrap the entire system simply because some people slip through the cracks.

HR 3200 does not cover illegals. Period.
Ringo

 

[Gawron]

Posted by Ringo84:

“It's not a lie.” and "HR 3200 does not cover illegals. Period."


It doesn't?

Ways and Means Amendment Highlights

Quote:

“HR 3200, the House health-reform bill, was considered by three committees. No amendments, offered by Republicans or Democrats, were accepted during the House Ways and Means Committee mark-up process. Here are a few key items that were before the Committee:”

“Taxpayer-Funded Benefits for Illegals. The House bill, as currently structured, does not offer clear guidelines to ensure that illegal immigrants cannot access taxpayer-funded health care benefits. Rep. Dean Heller (R., Nev.) introduced an amendment that would use two citizenship status verification systems, the Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) programs, to establish an individual’s eligibility to obtain the bill’s proposed affordability credits or enroll in the public insurance option. Both programs are currently used to determine citizenship status and eligibility for public assistance programs. Safeguards to guarantee that only citizens can access federal health care benefits are necessary, considering that the US Census Bureau currently estimates that 9.6 million of the uninsured are not U.S. citizens. The first Heller amendment failed on a straight party-line vote.”

End Quote. Link: http://healthcare.nationalreview.com...I5ZGQ3Yzg5NGQ=

From CIS.org:

Treatment of Noncitizens in H.R. 3200

Quotes follow:

Page 4, Exchange

"HR 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitizens - whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently - participating in the Exchage. However H.R. 3200 would only mandate that resident aliens would be required to have health insurance.”

The bill does not prohibit illegal aliens from participating in the public option available in the program. It doesn’t force them to, but it doesn’t prohibit them either.

Pages 5 and 6, Credits

"Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status, the prohibitions on certain non citizens... receiving the credits may not be enforced. However, others not that... it is the responsibility of the Health Choices Commissioner... to administer the... 'determination of eligibility for such credits...'"

As previously stated, illegal aliens can get both drivers licenses and social security cards. Since H.R. 3200 has no provision for determining eligibility, it is difficult to assume that some bureaucrat somewhere will simply devise one to address this shortcoming.

page 5, Credits

“In addition, the credits are based on an individual's eligibility, but many tax returns are filed jointly or with dependents. There could be instances where some family members would meet the definition of an eligible individual for the purposes of the credit, while other family members would not... H.R. 3200 does not expressly address how such a situation would be treated. Therefore, it appears that the Health Choices Commissioner would be responsible for determining how the credits would be administered in the case of mixed-family status.”

From the section on Individual Mandates:

Quote:

"Thus, it would appear that unauthorized aliens who meet the substantial
presence test would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance."

End Quotes.

The Substantial Presence Test is based on days in the US over a period of three years.

So, the Obama health care program allows for a bureaucrat to determine immigration status, but provides no mechanism for such a determination, other than, apparently, an arbitrary counting of how many days the individual in question has been in the country.

Since H.R. 3200 carries no requirement to verify citizenship status, or a mechanism for such a verification, how can it be said that the Obama program will not cover illegal aliens. In addition, the Democrats have voted down every amendment offered to include such a requirement and mechanism.

Link for quotes: http://www.cis.org/articles/2009/CRS..._on_HR3200.pdf

 

[Ringo84]

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.​

Ringo
​

 

[Gawron]

You are taking the literalist approach.


Section 246 only applies to "affordability credits", subsidies, and will not prevent illegal aliens from jumping into the public option. As I pointed out, section 246 does not contain any meaningful method to verify citizenship status, whether someone is enrolling into the public option or Medicaid.

I tried to provide a direct link to the text of HR 3200 from the congressional website, but the site itself was locked up.

Section 152 states this:

"In General- Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services."

Section 242 states this:

(1) IN GENERAL- For purposes of this division, the term `affordable credit eligible individual' means, subject to subsection (b), an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States (other than as a nonimmigrant described in a subparagraph (excluding subparagraphs (K), (T), (U), and (V)) of section 101(a)(15) of the Immigration and Nationality Act)--

(A) who is enrolled under an Exchange-participating health benefits plan and is not enrolled under such plan as an employee (or dependent of an employee) through an employer qualified health benefits plan that meets the requirements of section 312;

(B) with family income below 400 percent of the Federal poverty level for a family of the size involved; and

(C) who is not a Medicaid eligible individual, other than an individual described in section 202(d)(3) or an individual during a transition period under section 202(d)(4)(B)(ii).

(2) TREATMENT OF FAMILY- Except as the Commissioner may otherwise provide, members of the same family who are affordable credit eligible individuals shall be treated as a single affordable credit individual eligible for the applicable credit for such a family under this subtitle.


These sections were quoted from Thomas: Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)


This speaks to what was cited prior, that a bureaucrat would make the determination of who, within the same family, would be eligible. Subsection B provides a means to allow coverage, as does section 2.

 

[Ringo84]

Nothing in there says that illegal immigrants will be given health care. Rejecting the entire bill because of one nitpick concerning illegal immigrants seems ridiculous.
Ringo

 

[lawtonfogle]

How about I go ahead and argue that illegal aliens should get health care. Anyones who say they should not should also be arguing they should not get police protection (others can still get police protection against them). Most people a seriously messed up view of illegal immigrants, and let the rotten apples color their view. No different than my father who is racist because the news where I live shows over twice the number of blacks committing crimes than whites (the fact that there are over twice the number of blacks living in the area doesn't seem to register with him).

Last I checked, everything that an illegal alien bought had a sales tax, and everything that they earned fairly had an income tax. They do often times get paid under the table, but in any case I have seen of this happening, there has been a 'real American' profiting from it even more. Some are invovled in gangs, but this is not different than any 'real Americans' groups. Does the fact that most gangs are composed of blacks in my hometown justify me being a racist?

I know that my family was one time immigrants to this land. I don't see why I should not offer another family the same chance. As for the stealing the jobs? I assure you that if 'real Americans' were willing to work for as little as they are often paid, then they would be hired (who would assume the risk of hiring illegals if they made no profit off of it, assuming there were legals wanting to work as well?).

 

[Ringo84]

I'm not saying that you're wrong or right with what you said, lawton, but: are we debating immigration policy here or health care?

Let's not allow some Congressional Republicans to distract us from the real issue at hand: affordable health care for all Americans.
Ringo

 

[Amathystmoon]

I think that an overhaul of our healthcare system is needed. Do I agree with the current bill? For the most part, yes. However, I wish that Obama would cosider tort reform and alowing people to buy thier insurance across state lines. Car and home insurance are not that expensive, why?Because they compete at a national level.

 

[Gawron]

No Ringo, I said that earlier. The bill doesn't mandate health care to illegal aliens, but it doesn't prohibit it either.

By the way, did you see that documentary on VH1 the other night on the Beatles? I mean, at least we can agree on something.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I'm not saying that you're wrong or right with what you said, lawton, but: are we debating immigration policy here or health care?

Let's not allow some Congressional Republicans to distract us from the real issue at hand: affordable health care for all Americans.
Ringo

While getting it to Americans is a major step in the right direction, I hope to see health care become like any other system (police, cps, firefighting) it how it is applied, to everyone who needs it. Of course, the fact the government red tapes it should be considered, but really red tape is an issue which needs to be fixed in and of itself, not something which should be so inherently tied to health care.

 

[Ringo84]

No Ringo, I said that earlier. The bill doesn't mandate health care to illegal aliens, but it doesn't prohibit it either.

That can be said for a lot of laws. It doesn't mean that every illegal immigrant that crosses the border will enjoy the same health care as average joes like us.

By the way, did you see that documentary on VH1 the other night on the Beatles? I mean, at least we can agree on something.

Actually, I didn't. But I'm pleased to see The Beatles getting so much attention because of this new Rock Band: The Beatles game.

While getting it to Americans is a major step in the right direction, I hope to see health care become like any other system (police, cps, firefighting) it how it is applied, to everyone who needs it. Of course, the fact the government red tapes it should be considered, but really red tape is an issue which needs to be fixed in and of itself, not something which should be so inherently tied to health care.

So you think that health care should be granted to everyone - including illegal immigrants?
Ringo

 

[JoyJuice]

No Ringo, I said that earlier. The bill doesn't mandate health care to illegal aliens, but it doesn't prohibit it either.

By the way, did you see that documentary on VH1 the other night on the Beatles? I mean, at least we can agree on something.

Well yes, to get into the system you will have to be a US citizen. As far as illegal medical coverage, we do that now on an emergency basis and we all pay for it. There are no bills from any side of the aisle that is going to prevent that from happening because we just don't turn people away to die....unless of course it's the insurance companies denying proceedures.

...really, the idea of not preventing what is been a long US tradition is a non seqintor.

 

[nvxplorer]

I didn't watch Obama's speech last night, but the MSM played a portion that was a bold,faced look the American people in the eye lie.



The CONgress sounded like a townhall meeting, oh, not the ones Obama has set up, but the real ones.
One CONgressman called Obama out, "YOU LIE"

Oh, yes. It is clearly written in the bill I read, immigrants or non-citizens here in the country in other then legal means, are not eligable.
But what the bill doesn't say is where in the process the illegals will be verified?
No where. So lets keep this debate honest. They want to lie to the people, play the shell game with the majority of peoples healthcare, just so the few that didn't have healthcare, can have it.

I call on anyone that wants to improve our COuntry, not their party. To step forward and denounce the lies on both sides.

Remember this. Republicans can do nothing to stop healthcare. Democrats have just short of the super-majority. So they could easily strong arm legislation through, if they themselves supported it.
23 or more Democrats disagree with this bill.

I agree with Obama, lets stop the lies and politics of fear.

But the Democrats can't stop lying. They play on the soft side of the American people, saying we need reform now. To end the suffering of the millions that don't have healthcare. Truth is, they haven't had it for awhile, they can wait the little extra time, to get the bill right(correct).

Obama can deliver a speech. He will get a bounce from the speech, but without substance, his bounce will drop even farther when the people figure out the fluff and sparkle has no basis in truth.

I don't see the lie, Billnew. That the bill does not define verification (if that is correct), does not amount to coverage for illegal aliens. That's not even twisted logic. It's no logic at all.

If I advertise "free beer tomorrow," that a few underage kids may manage to sneak in does not mean I intended to serve minors.

 

[jgarden]

I didn't watch Obama's speech last night, but the MSM played a portion that was a bold,faced look the American people in the eye lie.



The CONgress sounded like a townhall meeting, oh, not the ones Obama has set up, but the real ones.
One CONgressman called Obama out, "YOU LIE"

Oh, yes. It is clearly written in the bill I read, immigrants or non-citizens here in the country in other then legal means, are not eligable.
But what the bill doesn't say is where in the process the illegals will be verified?
No where. So lets keep this debate honest. They want to lie to the people, play the shell game with the majority of peoples healthcare, just so the few that didn't have healthcare, can have it.

I call on anyone that wants to improve our COuntry, not their party. To step forward and denounce the lies on both sides.

Remember this. Republicans can do nothing to stop healthcare. Democrats have just short of the super-majority. So they could easily strong arm legislation through, if they themselves supported it.
23 or more Democrats disagree with this bill.

I agree with Obama, lets stop the lies and politics of fear.

But the Democrats can't stop lying. They play on the soft side of the American people, saying we need reform now. To end the suffering of the millions that don't have healthcare. Truth is, they haven't had it for awhile, they can wait the little extra time, to get the bill right(correct).

Obama can deliver a speech. He will get a bounce from the speech, but without substance, his bounce will drop even farther when the people figure out the fluff and sparkle has no basis in truth.

**********************************************************
When the first "illegal" child with H1N1 comes to the hospital emergency room, I want "Billnew" there at the front door to turn him/her away.

Given that the world may be on the verge of a flu pandemic, only a conservative would argue that it makes sense to refuse care to 10 -15 million potential carriers?

 

[utdbear]

Unless hospital ERs are given the authority to kick undocumented immigrants out on the street without any care at all, then yes, the federal government is going to 'cover' these individuals, just like they do now with hospital subsidies. It may not be through the healthcare 'reform' plan, but to deny that illegals will be denied care paid for by the government just like it's been for the last 40 years is laughable. Also laughable, the notion that said illegals won't help bankrupt the system.