healing and forgiveness

sk8Joyful · Dec 4, 2008

Strong in Him said:
I'm not really too clear about your position here;

one minute you seem to be implying that all healing is natural - that we were made with bodies which have the ability to overcome illness competely on their own,
the next you're quoting Scriptures and emphasising that we can have great physical health because that was why Jesus died.
It doesn't make sense to say that Jesus died to achieve something which we all can do for ourselves anway (i.e physical healing.) You might as well say that Jesus died for our sins on the cross but we still have to earn our place in heaven. Both positions actually render Jesus' death ineffectual.

Those things don't make sense, because I never posted them, certainly not those connections.
For not 2nd.-guessing, but actually asking Thank you.

Christianity is about Jesus dying for sins, and our relationship to Him.
There's more to our relationship with Jesus, than many people commonly realize.

Strong in Him said:
I know that God sometimes heals miraculously.

Yes, GOD does on occasion for healing, directly Divinely intervene.

(Regardless of what Catherine believes, in her: "I am not sure what planet you are from, but good luck on the journey home." -
People like that, said & did the same sarcastic sneering, to Jesus. - and
HE said "IF they will not receive you, they will not receive me"), or
said more positively: "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name, welcomes me"

Strong in Him said:
I also know, that sometimes his healing is through the medical profession

GOD's *designs & handiwork*, you think were flawed??,
such that He needs the "med-professions" for healing.
but
you just admitted knowing, that sometimes GOD heals "miracuously"...

You don't think, GOD (Creator-of-all) KNOWS what He's doing, & HOW?
iow
Do you think GOD is "limited" somehow? - how so?

I echo what Merlin said, pgs. ago "doctors don't heal anything" -
and noone here has been able to give one single example.

Strong in Him said:
and sometimes our bodies just need time and space to heal themselves.

We are fearfully and wonderfully made; there are systems in place in our body which let it heal itself - like white blood cells fighting infection, and blood clotting and so on.
I won't go into any medical details because I don't know too much.

Yes, I mentioned a few of m/billions of "fearfully/wonderfully" abilities GOD created our mind/body team with.

Did you know that "space & time" are human-construct maps.
They don't exist in GOD's REAL-world.

Did you know that most of what we are, is 'empty' space, truly. Ask any physicist.

Did you know that people can get a 'phobia' like of one tiny ant, in 1/100th of a second; and can as well UNlearn that, and change their perception to a reality more to their liking, in also 1/100th of a second. - Ask any competent BT person.

Did you know, that people have been scheduled for surgery the next day (yes, incldg. atheists who won't pray) with huge abdominal tumors, making people think they are 'pregnant, about Due'. -
But
after participating in just one, of a dozen non-medical interventions, the next day their surgeons (who saw them the previous day "still due"), Cancelled - because nowhere was any cancering left to be found.

So, since people obviously can change... in the blink-of-an-eye, or even faster, how fast do you think you might also be able to change your mind? and start healing...
also

In 4hrs., I'm starting another 17hr. day., so I'm going back to bed.
I will come back to 2 of your other questions, asap.

Enjoy! yourself today...

Catherineanne · Dec 4, 2008

sk8Joyful said:
Yes, GOD does on occasion for healing, directly Divinely intervene.

(Regardless of what Catherine believes, in her: "I am not sure what planet you are from, but good luck on the journey home."

Yes, God does heal sometimes. No, he does not make severed limbs and missing organs grow back or necrotic tissue regenerate.

Those with severed limbs will be whole in eternity, not here on earth. [Staff Edit] People here do not, however faithful and forgiving they may be.

What you call sneering I call maintaining a grasp on our actual, human reality, which some here seem somewhat unable to do. [Staff Edit]
You suggest that my ridiculing you is the same as ridiculing Our Lord, which is a rather bizarre and somewhat presumptuous thing to say. I do not recall him ever berating the sick for being sick, or suggesting it was their fault. It was those who thought they were well who were in trouble with him. Did he not say to them; 'if you were blind, you would be without sin. But because you say you see, your sin remains'?

I suggest, therefore, you take a rather more careful approach to proclaiming your own spiritual and physical health.

Merlin · Dec 4, 2008

Catherineanne said:
I am not sure what planet you are from, but good luck on the journey home.

You seem to enjoy mocking people you disagree with.

Strong in Him · Dec 4, 2008

sk8Joyful said:
Those things don't make sense, because I never posted them, certainly not those connections.

You did say -

sk8Joyful said:
Look, it's very simple: Isaiah 53.5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." <-- What, about past-tense, is there not to understand? -

You then went on to say that God had done his bit! That tells me that you believe that Jesus died to heal us physically, and implies that we will only get that healing if we do our part and accept it.

So why do you then go on to talk about how great it is that the body heals itself, how we can regrow limbs (scientific evidence?) or get rid of phobias and illness by the way we think? EITHER you believe that Jesus died to make us physically well and all we need to do is accept what he has already done, OR you believe that everything we need for healing is contained somehow in our own bodies, and we can release that healing if we co operate and think correctly. If the latter was true, then Jesus' death has nothing to do with it.

sk8Joyful said:
GOD's *designs & handiwork*, you think were flawed??,
such that He needs the "med-professions" for healing.

God made a perfect world. Adam and Eve were perfect when he made them. But when they disobeyed God, then sin entered the world, and with sin, disease and death. We get sick because sickness, germs, viruses, disease and infection exisit in the world NOT because God made us to be imperfect.
God can, and does, heal through the medical profession. He doesn't need them; God doesn't need us to do anything. He can save the world, heal everyone, tell people about his Son and feed the hungry, etc without our help. But he allows us the privilege of working with him to bring these things about.

sk8Joyful said:
I echo what Merlin said, pgs. ago "doctors don't heal anything" -
and noone here has been able to give one single example.

I said that God heals through the medical profession. God can work though doctors, just as he can though any of us, (not just healing, but helping, teaching, counselling etc.) Doctors use their God given skill and knowledge to diagnose the problem and prescribe the drugs or treatment which will bring about healing.

If someone were to have a heart attack and stop breathing, a doctor performed CPR and got them breathing again and then prescribed any drugs that were necessary to stop it happening again; or if they ordered a scan to be carried out or decided that the patient needed heart surgery, they would have been very instrumental in the patient's healing. You can't leave someone who's died alone in the hope that their body will sort itself out; it can't, it's dead. If you act quickly enough you may be able to bring them back to life, but just leaving the body alone to heal itself won't work.

sk8Joyful said:
Yes, I mentioned a few of m/billions of "fearfully/wonderfully" abilities GOD created our mind/body team with.

Did you know that "space & time" are human-construct maps.
They don't exist in GOD's REAL-world.

Did you know that most of what we are, is 'empty' space, truly. Ask any physicist.

Did you know that people can get a 'phobia' like of one tiny ant, in 1/100th of a second; and can as well UNlearn that, and change their perception to a reality more to their liking, in also 1/100th of a second. - Ask any competent BT person.

Did you know, that people have been scheduled for surgery the next day (yes, incldg. atheists who won't pray) with huge abdominal tumors, making people think they are 'pregnant, about Due'. -
But
after participating in just one, of a dozen non-medical interventions, the next day their surgeons (who saw them the previous day "still due"), Cancelled - because nowhere was any cancering left to be found.

So, since people obviously can change... in the blink-of-an-eye, or even faster, how fast do you think you might also be able to change your mind? and start healing...

This is what I'd like you to explain. Your posts sound as though you believe that we are capable of healing ourselves - every time, no matter what the condition - by getting rid of negative emotions, and changing our thought patterns and mind-set. That is why I said, a few posts back, that you sounded as though you were beginning to write a self help manual.

And, with respect, you have answered few of the points I have made, Scriptures I have quoted or things I have asked, you just keep repeating the same stuff about the wonderful healing systems contained in our bodies, and how I could heal myself if only I tried hard enough. Sounds like you are all ready to sign me up for some positive thinking course.

So what do you believe about healing?

Merlin · Dec 4, 2008

Strong in Him said:
The devil hates God and will do anything - fear, pain, sickness, bitterness etc - to try to win back those who have given their lives to him.

even lie to us and thus prevent our healing.

So God doesn't want sickness in the world. Does he allow it? Yes clearly, otherwise he'd heal all his precious children immediately. I'm not sure why he allows it - though Scripture does talk about God discipling his children, or testing their faith, just as gold is tested by fire to have the impurities removed.

He allows it so that He can be glorified in the healing.

I've highlited part of your answer.
You are saying that praying in faith, asking others to pray - intercede to God - and going to services of healing to receive his touch and an anointing, is ineffective, not good enough, because it's not getting me what I want.

Isn't it obvious?

So what do you believe prayer is? Talking to God because you want something and if he doesn't give it, then you'll have a hissy fit and go off and try something that will bring you healing? That's not what it is for me; as I have already said, he is my Lord. I pray to him, leave my desires with him and trust that he will grant them in his own time. In the meantime, I get on with the business of loving, serving and getting to know him.

There is more to prayer than petitioning Him for one's wants.

1. If you read Isaiah 53, it is clear that he is talking about someone dying for our sins, being crushed for our iniquities and transgressions. That the punishment for our sin fell on him. This has been done; Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished."

isa 53.5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.,
notice the word and here?
it means in addition, or also
The particular word, translated as healed is used as a physical healing in other places in the bible too.

gen 20.17
ex 15.26
ex 21.19
lev 14.3
lev 14.48
Num 12:13
Deu 28:27
Deu 28.35
Deu 32.39
2kings 2.21
2 kings 2.22
2kings 8.29
2kings 9.15
2kings 20.5
2kings 20.8
2ch 22.6
and so on

2.. It's not about not understanding the past tense, it's that I do not agree (and I'm not the only one)

multiple people doesn't make it right.
The majority consensus is that christianity is nonsense

that this refers to our physical healing. It doesn't say so.

see above uses of heal in Hebrew.

There are many, many Scriptures that say what Christ has done for us, and what we now have because of his death: peace with God, (Rom 5:1); reconciliation, (2 Cor 5:18); every spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3); we are his children and heirs with Jesus (Rom 8:15-17); nothing can seperate us from God's love (Rom 8:38,39), to name but a few. Scripture even says that Jesus was made sin for us so that we would become righteous (2 Cor 5:21).
Where does it say that Christ died so that we would never be sick again? Or the he was made cancer for us? Or anything else?

again isa 53.5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.,
notice the word and here?
it means in addition, or also
The particular word, translated as healed is used as a physical healing in other places in the bible too.

see above references.

So I'm assuming that you attribute your good health directly to your beliefs/actions and nothing else? You have discovered a verse which appears to say that God wants us physically well (and don't talk to me about taking things out of context); because you have decided to believe it, and no doubt repeat it often to God, and because he has given you the blessing of good physical health, you are assuming that one is as a result of the other? Good health is presumably your reward for "getting it right", whereas my continued ill health is no doubt as a result of "getting it wrong"

lets not play the blame game, ok?

As Catherineanne has said, God help you if you ever get ill and find that your little theory doesn't work. (And many have become so disillusioned by these kinds of belief that they've left the church/God altogether.)

He does

Merlin · Dec 4, 2008

Catherineanne said:
At last I can see where this nonsense is coming from.

You are taking the two statements in Isaiah as referring to two separate events, and then predicting two separate events from them?

I think you would do well to consider the way much of the OT was written, Merlin. It very often comprises a poetic form where two lines are placed together, which look slightly different, but actually say the same thing. These lines intensify or underline the message contained within them. So when we are told:

He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities

the two mean the same thing.

agreed, followed by and
and with his stripes we are healed.

Similarly with:

The punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way

Etc. If you read Isaiah with this in mind you will see that in much of the writing this kind of couplet poetic form intensifies the messages it contains.

Our healing from the wounds of Christ is not separate from our healing through his death, in other words. It is a part of the whole, and the whole is about the healing of our relationship with God.

You are not the only one to be confused by this poetic form. The gospel of Matthew has Our Lord ride into Jerusalem on a colt and a donkey, because he did not realise that in Zechariah 10 v 9 these are one and the same animal, repeated for poetic effect.

except, those other references do not use and.

Merlin · Dec 4, 2008

Strong in Him said:
If healing is a two way event, if God has "done his bit" and is waiting for me to do mine, don't you think he'd tell me what it is?

ever occur to you, maybe He is
right now?

Merlin · Dec 4, 2008

Catherineanne said:
Yes, God does heal sometimes. No, he does not make severed limbs and missing organs grow back or necrotic tissue regenerate.

now you declare what God can and cannot do?

sunlover1 · Dec 5, 2008

Catherineanne said:
True. Only 95% of chronic ill health.

Nice going.

And i never said that either.

Catherineanne said:
I am not sure what planet you are from, but good luck on the journey home.

Now that wasnt very neighborly. God might really like her too.
Sometimes I will (erroneously) think that since
someone sort of irks me, that they must irk God too.

sk8Joyful said:
GOD's *designs & handiwork*, you think were flawed??,
such that He needs the "med-professions" for healing.

You dont think that God uses medical professionals ??
WHatchutalkinbout?

Did you know that people can get a 'phobia' like of one tiny ant, in 1/100th of a second; and can as well UNlearn that, and change their perception to a reality more to their liking, in also 1/100th of a second. - Ask any competent BT person.

Please do share, because I struggle with storms and dogs

also

In 4hrs., I'm starting another 17hr. day., so I'm going back to bed.
I will come back to 2 of your other questions, asap.

Enjoy! yourself today

Oh... darn.
Alright, will see you then.
OH, btw, I read your post on your healing and recovery
and it brought tears to my eyes. Praise God for His great
love and mercy!

Catherineanne said:
Yes, God does heal sometimes. No, he does not make severed limbs and missing organs grow back or necrotic tissue regenerate.

Why not?
Just what sort of healing does he sometimes do?
Where does He draw the line anyhow?
He will sometimes 'heal' organs but wont regenerate them?

You suggest that my ridiculing you is the same as ridiculing Our Lord, which is a rather bizarre and somewhat presumptuous thing to say.

But sort of biblical, since Jesus said as much:

Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch
as ye have done it
unto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye have done it
unto me.

We're all guilty to be sure.

I do not recall him ever berating the sick for being sick, or suggesting it was their fault.

While I didnt see Him 'berating' anyone, but then again I dont see
any on this thread doing so either, I did post some Scripture
where He DID say that it was due to 'their' unbelief that He
could do no mighty work.

5 And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.
And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Merlin said:
isa 53.5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.,
notice the word and here?
it means in addition, or also

Hi Merlin.
I am not following the significance of the AND here.
Thank you.

Catherineanne · Dec 5, 2008

Merlin said:
use and.

Totally irrelevant. The Jewish poetic form consists of parallel statements, saying and meaning the same thing, repeated for poetry and emphasis. If you look at your OT you will find it is full of this literary form; it is all over the place.

Whether the English translation includes 'and' or not in rendering the sense of this poetry is, frankly, neither here nor there.

Catherineanne · Dec 5, 2008

Merlin said:
now you declare what God can and cannot do?

Pot and kettle!

Catherineanne · Dec 5, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Why not?
Just what sort of healing does he sometimes do?
Where does He draw the line anyhow?
He will sometimes 'heal' organs but wont regenerate them?

I don't know, ask him.
Healing that we see, and have evidence of, is his.
Healing that we do not see, and have evidence of, is where he draws the line. There is no evidence that human limbs can spontaneously regenerate, and neither can missing organs.

[Staff Edit] Maybe one day scientists will find a way to achieve these things, but at present, they simply do not happen.

Meanwhile, here is a thought. Denial of proven reality is itself a medical condition, which can indicate all sorts of mental illness.

Good luck to anyone praying for healing of that one.

Heber · Dec 5, 2008

I do not recall him ever berating the sick for being sick, or suggesting it was their fault.

Deut 28:58-62 and 1 Cor. 11:30;

one from the OT and one from the NT!

Catherineanne · Dec 5, 2008

Heber said:
Deut 28:58-62 and 1 Cor. 11:30;

one from the OT and one from the NT!

What I said is that I do not recall Our Lord berating anyone for being sick.

The Lord is the benchmark of our faith, what he said and what he did. Nothing more, nothing less.

It is no surprise if man is bigoted in his response to illness, but Our Lord does not authorise bigotry, either here or anywhere else.

MamaZ · Dec 5, 2008

All illness can be healed. Proven fact. Limbs have been restored. Organs have been restored. The baren have given birth. God is in the healing business today just as He was when Christ walked the earth.

Strong in Him · Dec 5, 2008

Merlin said:
He allows it so that He can be glorified in the healing.
Isn't it obvious?

In that case, he is not glorifying himself, because not every Christian who asks, prays to, him for physical healing receives it. If God is glorified in healing, if he wants his glory to be seen and known and Christians want him to be glorified in their lives - and they have already desired, and asked for, physical healing - then God would heal them. Isn't it obvious?

Merlin said:
There is more to prayer than petitioning Him for one's wants.
isa 53.5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.,
notice the word and here?
it means in addition, or also
The particular word, translated as healed is used as a physical healing in other places in the bible too.

The passage is talking about sin, transgressions - spiritual sickness. As Catherineanne has said, often in the OT the writers make two parallel statements, each saying the same thing. There's a lot of it in the Psalms. Now if Isaiah had said, "he was pierced for our transgressions, and beaten so that we might be physically healed", or "by his death we have both spiritual and physical wholeness"; that might be different. It would certainly be a lot clearer.

Merlin said:
lets not play the blame game, ok?

I have no intention of playing the blame game as I do not blame anyone for my illness.
But very often, threads like this make me feel as though someone is blaming me for not having been healed. I wouldn't be surprised if your response to what I have written above was something along the lines of, "if you want your healing, you have to do your bit. God has done his, you haven't received it." Or "God cannot heal you because of your attitude/lack of faith/negative emotions/unwillingness to believe." Or simply "you want to remain sick." I don't wish to put words in your mouth, but this is my experience form similar healing threads.
Ok, so maybe the word "blame" isn't used, but the implication most definitely is that it's my responsibility to do/believe the things that will result in my healing; that God is desperate to heal but actually can't because of me.

I don't accept that at all. If it is God's will always to heal, if he is glorified in healing and if I want to be healed, and also for him to do his will and be glorified in my life; then he'd heal me when I ask.
In the Gospels, Jesus did not wait until people had got their theology straight before he healed them. One man went to him and said IF you want to do this, you can, another said "I believe, help me in my unbelief". Jairus took Jesus to heal his daughter but laughed at him when Jesus said that she wasn't dead. The man by the pool at Bethesda was asked if he wanted to be healed and could not even give a straight answer to the question, never mind confess his faith that Jesus would be the one who would heal him (John 5). The man who was born blind was not even asked that, Jesus just healed him and went away. It was only when he went to find Jesus that the man learned who he was.

God is my healer, he is able to make me whole in every way, and what's more, he is doing so. So far I am not physically whole, but that's not everything; I will be one day. I can accept that, I don't see why you can't.

Strong in Him · Dec 5, 2008

Merlin said:
ever occur to you, maybe He is
right now?

I have had many discussions on these forums about these verses in Isaiah and the whole "Jesus died so that we could hve perfect physical health", debate. I have explained, at length, my problems with it; I have even asked the Lord to show me if it is true and if my intellect is somehow getting in the way. God gives faith and his Spirit leads us into truth, he is easily able to give me the faith to receive the healing which, according to some, he is desperate to give.
So far he has not.

Ever occur to you that maybe he is speaking to you, through some of us, and challenging your beliefs/attitude?

Strong in Him · Dec 5, 2008

Heber said:
Deut 28:58-62 and 1 Cor. 11:30;

1 Corinthians 11:30 is not an example of our Lord berating someone for being sick and saying it is their own fault. It is Paul suggesting that people have become weak, sick or fallen asleep because they do not take communion seriously. Some were going ahead and eating and drinking without examining themselves first (confessing their sin) and understanding what they were doing.

Paul could easily have been commenting on their spiritual state. If they didn't recognise what Jesus had done for them, they were spiritually unhealthy, weak or maybe even spiritually asleep. Again, physical illness is not mentioned, it has just been assumed.

Thekla · Dec 5, 2008

This teaching seems to create a "dividing line"; those who love God (= healed) and those who do not (= not healed). This is a dangerous measure. Paul suffered a "thorn" that God did not relieve him of; was this an instance of Paul's lack of love for God ?
Instead, Paul tells us this "thorn" was for his benefit.

sunlover1 · Dec 5, 2008

Thekla said:
This teaching seems to create a "dividing line"; those who love God (= healed) and those who do not (= not healed).

I didnt see anyone implying THAT.
Did i miss something?
But yeah, this is GT and every thread is filled with people
becoming offended.
I'm not offended at the teaching that God heals.
I believe that He does, and I believe that the
variable is time.
Just my opinion, although Jesus seemed to do it 'now'.

This is a dangerous measure.

Sure it would be!

healing and forgiveness

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Paradigm Buster

Great is thy faithfulness

Paradigm Buster

Paradigm Buster

Paradigm Buster

Paradigm Buster

Beloved, Let us love one another

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

MamaZ

Guest

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

Thekla

Guest

Beloved, Let us love one another

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency