Head vs Heart

[TreasureHunter12]

What do you think "awareness" is?

I don't think going in this direction, getting into theory of mind, is going to be productive. I try to keep everything within the area of direct experience as much as possible.

If we've already reached a separation, I would say forget what I said to you in the previous post and instead of "bringing your awareness into your torso" instead simply feel your body in that area. If you're not feeling your body, then you're presumably in your head. It works the same in practice.

 

[Chris B]

I explain in my second post that I am not advocating emotional decision making. I should have anticipated this miscommunication when I made the OP.".

You caught a couple of us on that, but that's easily dealt with.

But
" For instance, if you place your full awareness on an object away from you, it is impossible to simultaneously engage in thought unless your awareness gets sucked back into your head. "

That rather depends on what you include in thought.
I can develop thought and concepts with my awareness placed upon an object, or a symbolic item or even a projected non-physical entity, but what I can rarely do is inspect those thoughts at the same time.
I then need to "come out one level" to think about what has emerged.
(Not as tidy as that, but as best as I can depict, briefly)
A lot of my thinking is not at the conscious level: that comes into play later, vetting and or building from what I have put together without initial conscious awareness.

It's not a question of whether suffering is abnormal, but it's about whether or not we have a desire to cure it. I feel strongly that everyone has moments when they feel this desire, usually during and soon after they experience suffering. That desire should be seized and held onto.

That depends on the suffering and on one's view of suffering (in its different forms)

The problem is when we think to resolve our pain those thoughts are influenced by emotion at an unconscious level. We agree we want to avoid emotional decision making.

Unconscious influence is a big issue... lots of instincts learned reflexes and assumptions lie there.
I consider it a good thing to try and see what is doing decision and judgement making there. Getting awareness of (some) of that gets easier with practice, but I've never found it a finished project.
Getting outside one's own culture or social setting helps, as long as one is not then just judging the new environment from the perspective of the old one.

But resolving pain or suffering? So many different responses may be available: from elimination to embracing, with several gradations in between.

It starts at the level of reflex (hand springing away from electric shock...) and runs up to the level of conscious deliberation ("this is going to hurt, but I'm going to do it anyway.")

 

[TreasureHunter12]

There are passing windows of clarity to be able to apply the practice I am describing. 99.9% of the time the religious person doesn't step out of their belief system into uncertainty and objectivity. It is only during times of suffering that we are presented with the opportunity to see clearly that we haven't made the progress that we thought we had. This applies to whatever our preferred pain relief focus is and whatever our belief system regarding pain is. All I'm saying is the next time that window of clarity presents itself, wake up and run through it into uncertainty. Whatever is true will not be lost.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't think going in this direction, getting into theory of mind, is going to be productive. I try to keep everything within the area of direct experience as much as possible.

If we've already reached a separation, I would say forget what I said to you in the previous post and instead of "bringing your awareness into your torso" instead simply feel your body in that area. If you're not feeling your body, then you're presumably in your head. It works the same in practice.

Well I think it's important to clear up what you mean by awareness since I can't get a grasp of it based solely on context. In this post you make it sound like it's the same as "feeling" (physically, not emotionally) when you say this....

"...I would say forget what I said to you in the previous post and instead of "bringing your awareness into your torso" instead simply feel your body in that area."

So in that sentence, it seems to relate to the physical sensation of touch. Yet in your previous posts, you've used the word "awareness" like this....

"For instance, if you place your full awareness on an object away from you, it is impossible to simultaneously engage in thought unless your awareness gets sucked back into your head."

In that sentence it seems to refer to something related to thought...some process that's not physical at all. So in order to understand what you're getting at here, I'm really going to need some sort of workable definition...the way you're using the word is unfamiliar to me and seems entirely inconsistent.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Well I think it's important to clear up what you mean by awareness since I can't get a grasp of it based solely on context. In this post you make it sound like it's the same as "feeling" (physically, not emotionally) when you say this....

"...I would say forget what I said to you in the previous post and instead of "bringing your awareness into your torso" instead simply feel your body in that area."

So in that sentence, it seems to relate to the physical sensation of touch. Yet in your previous posts, you've used the word "awareness" like this....

"For instance, if you place your full awareness on an object away from you, it is impossible to simultaneously engage in thought unless your awareness gets sucked back into your head."

In that sentence it seems to refer to something related to thought...some process that's not physical at all. So in order to understand what you're getting at here, I'm really going to need some sort of workable definition...the way you're using the word is unfamiliar to me and seems entirely inconsistent.

I can try to come up with a clearer way to explain what I mean, but maybe it might be helpful for me to better understand what you are unclear about.

When I say to feel your body, do you take that to mean to physically feel it with your hands?

Have you ever been so engrossed as a spectator that you "lose yourself"?

Are you able to comprehend the concept of mindfulness - does the idea of observing your thoughts make sense to you?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I can try to come up with a clearer way to explain what I mean, but maybe it might be helpful for me to better understand what you are unclear about.

When I say to feel your body, do you take that to mean to physically feel it with your hands?

Basically, or to notice your breathing, the clothes against your skin, any aches and pains, your stomach rumbling...essentially all physical sensations.

Have you ever been so engrossed as a spectator that you "lose yourself"?

I've experienced auditory and visual exclusion in moments of imminent danger. I've experienced a kind of deep focus during moments of intense concentration. The phrase "lose yourself" is a bit meaningless to me...it's a bit like saying "you're not yourself right now". You're always yourself lol. So when I think of "lose yourself""...I think of someone astral projecting (which I don't believe in) and not finding your way back to your body.

Are you able to comprehend the concept of mindfulness - does the idea of observing your thoughts make sense to you?

I'd have a hard time thinking of moments where I'm unaware of my thoughts. Again, moments of imminent danger I suppose, during sex, maybe even during a close mma match. The rest of the time I'm perhaps all too aware of my thoughts.

 

[timewerx]

I agree. The emotional, impulsive thinking that wants revenge when we feel wronged is similar to the emotional thinking that I am saying to separate yourself from in this thread. Jesus teaches to forgive internally, in heart and mind. He's not teaching morality; he's teaching something more. Likewise, when he says to turn the other cheek.

Jesus wasn't calm all the time. There are times He got real angry, and even dodged people's attempts to hurt him.... He wasn't just going to turn the other cheek.

And frankly, you won't make a good leader if you choose to remain positive in all situations whether you're just acting or not. You'll make a good, well-tempered mascot or clown but that is not what we are going for.

 

[Extraneous]

Jesus wasn't calm all the time. There are times He got real angry, and even dodged people's attempts to hurt him.... He wasn't just going to turn the other cheek.

And frankly, you won't make a good leader if you choose to remain positive in all situations whether you're just acting or not. You'll make a good, well-tempered mascot or clown but that is not what we are going for.

Look where the Lord lead. He was a clown to those people in the end. They mocked him. That just shown the Love God has for ungrateful people though. That was the whole point i think.

 

[timewerx]

Look where the Lord lead. He was a clown to those people in the end. They mocked him. That just shown the Love God has for ungrateful people though. That was the whole point i think.

That is the popular Christian belief but Christ does not want everyone, the ungrateful and the mockers will not be given a chance:

Read Please:

Mark 4:11-12
He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables

so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

 

[Extraneous]

That is the popular Christian belief but Christ does not want everyone, the ungrateful and the mockers will not be given a chance:

Read Please:

Mark 4:11-12
He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables

so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

He still died for the world though, thats the only point i was making.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Jesus wasn't calm all the time. There are times He got real angry, and even dodged people's attempts to hurt him.... He wasn't just going to turn the other cheek.

And frankly, you won't make a good leader if you choose to remain positive in all situations whether you're just acting or not. You'll make a good, well-tempered mascot or clown but that is not what we are going for.

You are missing the point. This isn't about morality; it's not about saying behave this way or that way. It's about freeing yourself from impulse and compulsions. You are making false assumptions about where this would lead and those assumptions come from those exact same unconscious emotional impulses, aka fear and pain avoidance.

Wake up or stay asleep. The ones who have settled into their sleep will come up with anything to justify it. Come back to this thread when you want more out of life.

 

[timewerx]

He still died for the world though, thats the only point i was making.

I'm not sure why you brought it up. Although it is Biblical, it has no relevance in this discussion.

I was only saying that Jesus got angry at people and it's also in the Bible. In relevance to this discussion, I don't think we should totally suppress our emotional response as Jesus Himself did not always tried. Jesus is not really a zen master.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Basically, or to notice your breathing, the clothes against your skin, any aches and pains, your stomach rumbling...essentially all physical sensations.

Yeah, just notice and focus on your torso area, through feel without touch, even when there are no sensations vying for your attention. If you practice this during times of less stress, you'll give yourself a better chance to be able to do it during high stress. Again, you won't be willing to implement this until you clearly see that you have a problem that you have failed to solve.

 

[timewerx]

You are missing the point. This isn't about morality; it's not about saying behave this way or that way. It's about freeing yourself from impulse and compulsions. You are making false assumptions about where this would lead and those assumptions come from those exact same unconscious emotional impulses, aka fear and pain avoidance.

Wake up or stay asleep. The ones who have settled into their sleep will come up with anything to justify it. Come back to this thread when you want more out of life.

I wasn't making a point on morality either. Look I saw you mention about Christ on your OP, so I am not allowed?

I know most of what you are talking about.

Something you should know about me:

- I lost my career
- I lost my life savings
- Harrassed very often in the Middle East as an expat.
- I lost my job again due to the crisis in the Middle East so now I'm jobless.

I'm 34 now, still have no family of my own, my poor folks are counting on me so there's a huge pressure on me.

Some people in my situation have either killed themselves or killed their abusers. But I couldn't even think of such thing. The real surprise here, I'm not even depressed and taking good care of myself. I look well enough to pass off half of my age

Sometimes, I still cry but I get over it so quick. No alcohol, no drugs, no addiction of any kind, healthy diet, despite the huge pressure in my life right now. I have friends but most are not close to me, not many similar interests, yet, I follow them around. Doesn't really bother me at all, although I think they may be bothered...

 

[TreasureHunter12]

I know most of what you are talking about.

Someone who understands, implements it into their life, and someone who implements it does not allow himself to feel victimized, does not provide excuses for himself, and does not look for sympathy. Because it prevents them from solving the problem. I wish you the best.

 

[Extraneous]

I'm not sure why you brought it up. Although it is Biblical, it has no relevance in this discussion.

I was only saying that Jesus got angry at people and it's also in the Bible. In relevance to this discussion, I don't think we should totally suppress our emotional response as Jesus Himself did not always tried. Jesus is not really a zen master.

I dont think we should suppress all our emotions either, but there are times we need to do that.

 

[Locutus]

I always equated the phrase "listen to your heart" with the idea of paying attention to your feelings/emotions regarding a choice/problem. Is this what you mean? If you meant something else I'm afraid I don't understand and you'll need to clarify...

That said, I think it's almost always wrong to consider your emotions as the most important factor in a choice (in fact, I would suggest to most people that they try to ignore their emotions altogether). The only time I would suggest "following your heart" is when all the intellectual considerations are small/equal or the goal of the choice at hand is emotional satisfaction. Since that's rarely the case...people should consider ignoring their hearts and using their heads more.

The 'heart' is a notoriously unreliable guide.

 

[timewerx]

Someone who understands, implements it into their life, and someone who implements it does not allow himself to feel victimized, does not provide excuses for himself, and does not look for sympathy. Because it prevents them from solving the problem. I wish you the best.

I took all accountability for that a long time ago. If I did everything right, then I wouldn't have ended up here, now.

And no I'm not looking for sympathy. A thousand apologies if I sounded like one, it is only for example how I have managed to keep myself together despite difficult times.

Lots of emotional control involved.....After a time, it becomes 2nd nature and you don't have to think about it anymore.

I have also learned to harness the energy of emotions and even magnify it. Like someone returning a call for a job interview, I would expect that I will get that job and I'll feel excited out of the expectation and then I examine all the details of that emotion and keep it for as long as possible. I get a good kick out of it... So even I didn't get the job, I still got a good kick out it and wasn't disappointed at all.

I believe you said something like that it struck me as familiar. I learned it on my own. At some point, I lost my head and bang! I figured it out!