In Corinthians 11:3-13, women are asked to cover their heads when worshipping the L-RD - do only married Messianic Jewish women cover their heads or does this not apply? As you can see, I have a lot of questions that need to be answered!
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Head covering
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BarbB
I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel!
I purchased a tallit from The Elijah List which has a Messianic design on the corners and a grafted in emblem at the neck. It's quite pretty and was reasonable as well. The first time I prayed with it on my head I was astounded at the power in my prayer. I was actually a bit frightened. :o I have also used it on my head when taking communion. So, I am encouraged to cover my head with it, definitely. 
I understand that the tallit could have been the "prayer closet" that Paul spoke of. Also, that it could have been the "tents" that he was a maker of.
I understand that the tallit could have been the "prayer closet" that Paul spoke of. Also, that it could have been the "tents" that he was a maker of.
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I must admit, I have since baptism into Yeshua, had my head covered during communial prayer as I believe this is the correct way to go (1 Cor.11:3-13). My own understanding is that this defines the correct order of things. Man was created first so the woman is showing respect to the husband. I know in this age of 'equal rights' and woman's liberation, that this is unsavoury to some but from a personal point of view, I have no problem with what G-d has ordained. I think the way to go with the L-rd is to show humbleness at all times and remember who we belong to and whom we serve.BarbB said:I purchased a tallit from The Elijah List which has a Messianic design on the corners and a grafted in emblem at the neck. It's quite pretty and was reasonable as well. The first time I prayed with it on my head I was astounded at the power in my prayer. I was actually a bit frightened. :o I have also used it on my head when taking communion. So, I am encouraged to cover my head with it, definitely.
I understand that the tallit could have been the "prayer closet" that Paul spoke of. Also, that it could have been the "tents" that he was a maker of.
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I put on a head covering every day along with the rest of my clothing. I happen to be married, but I'd be doing the same even if I wasn't married.
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somechic06
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I keep my head covered all day and I feel alot better now that I do its only been alittle bit over a month but I have noticed a definite difference 
although I'm not married I felt as if this is what I'm to keep my head covered
now that I do its only been alittle bit over a month but I have noticed a definite difference although I'm not married I felt as if this is what I'm to keep my head covered
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Somechic,
Have you met any opposition since you started wearing a head covering full time?
Of all the things that have changed in my life since I started walking this path, my decision to dress modestly and wear a head covering has led to more hostile reactions coming from my family than with anything else, more even than with holiday or kosher issues.
So I was wondering if that was a common experience.
Have you met any opposition since you started wearing a head covering full time?
Of all the things that have changed in my life since I started walking this path, my decision to dress modestly and wear a head covering has led to more hostile reactions coming from my family than with anything else, more even than with holiday or kosher issues.
So I was wondering if that was a common experience.
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vanilla8
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New question on this elderly thread. My friend and I are currently seeking the truth on this issue, and although I've looked for other references throughout the Bible, I can't find any that seem relevent.
My friend thinks the verse in corinthians means that if you have short hair, you have to wear a head covering, I think it means that if you don't wear a covering, you may as well have short hair as it is a disgrace.
What do Jewish women do and why??
My friend thinks the verse in corinthians means that if you have short hair, you have to wear a head covering, I think it means that if you don't wear a covering, you may as well have short hair as it is a disgrace.
What do Jewish women do and why??
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"Of all the things that have changed in my life since I started walking this path, my decision to dress modestly and wear a head covering has led to more hostile reactions coming from my family than with anything else, more even than with holiday or kosher issues. "
I think this is very often true. I think often because there is something that is G-ds way and not mans way and people do not want to go G-ds way, they think it is burdensome in my opinion because they do not understand. But things that stand out and represent G-d in an obvious way bother people who do not want to follow G-d. I had someone come into my home recently and he said Oh you are Jewish, he said why are the Jews hated so much and persecuted, or something like that. I told him it is because in the eyes of the world Jews represent G-d whether they think that conciously or subconciously and it is G-d they hate, they want to get rid of G-d. Why things bother people and why people do things often is not obvious or in the concious mind I think, it is something underlying. A woman very modestly dressed with a dress and a head covering, who also behaves herself in a feminie manner etc. represents the order of G-d and that is something that rebellious men want very much to snuff out and forget even exists, that woman stands before them with a bright clear message that G-d indeed does exist, ought to be honored, His ways followed, and that no matter how hard they try to forget that or snuff it out they will still find Him right there before them though gently beconing them. Much more so then just modest dress, a head covering is a sign, there is much more to a head covering then we can know or understand, it speaks even to the angels, there is a very strong message in a head covering. You can imagine a society who has gone far away from G-d they go on and are glad, but then here is this Jew that prays three times a day right by their window no less and they can plainly hear it, Oh they say we have to get rid of that Jew, he constantly reminds us of G-d and we got rid of G-d along time ago, and we dont want to be reminded of Him. Now here is a society with women and men who want nothing to do with G-d so they fix everything completely opposite to the ways and order of G-d, Men stay home and boast they are house husbands, women go out and boast of their carreers ouside the home, birth control and sterilization are used so no babies, divorce, unfaithfulness, men with men, women with women, children have no respect for their parents or elders, women dress as much like men as they can to prove they are the same as men, they cut their hair because besides being beautiful and a special gift it also represents G-d and His order, they tell themselves that short hair is just as beautiful and more beautiful and besides they say it is practical, people think only of themselves and every order of G-d is reversed so that the exact opposite is the accepted. Now in the midst of that appears a woman dressed in G-ds way with a head covering and meak and quiet spirit, or a family following the order of G-d, Father is the leader, mother his helper, children obedient and respectful, the family follows torah and the ways of G-d and it is a bright shining light that cannot be ignored. It is G-d you represent and G-d they want to avoid. This is the reason for such strong opposition. Take it as an encouragement! You are a bright beacon for G-d.
"I think this is very often true. I think often because there is something that is G-ds way and not mans way and people do not want to go G-ds way, they think it is burdensome in my opinion because they do not understand. But things that stand out and represent G-d in an obvious way bother people who do not want to follow G-d. I had someone come into my home recently and he said Oh you are Jewish, he said why are the Jews hated so much and persecuted, or something like that. I told him it is because in the eyes of the world Jews represent G-d whether they think that conciously or subconciously and it is G-d they hate, they want to get rid of G-d. Why things bother people and why people do things often is not obvious or in the concious mind I think, it is something underlying. A woman very modestly dressed with a dress and a head covering, who also behaves herself in a feminie manner etc. represents the order of G-d and that is something that rebellious men want very much to snuff out and forget even exists, that woman stands before them with a bright clear message that G-d indeed does exist, ought to be honored, His ways followed, and that no matter how hard they try to forget that or snuff it out they will still find Him right there before them though gently beconing them. Much more so then just modest dress, a head covering is a sign, there is much more to a head covering then we can know or understand, it speaks even to the angels, there is a very strong message in a head covering. You can imagine a society who has gone far away from G-d they go on and are glad, but then here is this Jew that prays three times a day right by their window no less and they can plainly hear it, Oh they say we have to get rid of that Jew, he constantly reminds us of G-d and we got rid of G-d along time ago, and we dont want to be reminded of Him. Now here is a society with women and men who want nothing to do with G-d so they fix everything completely opposite to the ways and order of G-d, Men stay home and boast they are house husbands, women go out and boast of their carreers ouside the home, birth control and sterilization are used so no babies, divorce, unfaithfulness, men with men, women with women, children have no respect for their parents or elders, women dress as much like men as they can to prove they are the same as men, they cut their hair because besides being beautiful and a special gift it also represents G-d and His order, they tell themselves that short hair is just as beautiful and more beautiful and besides they say it is practical, people think only of themselves and every order of G-d is reversed so that the exact opposite is the accepted. Now in the midst of that appears a woman dressed in G-ds way with a head covering and meak and quiet spirit, or a family following the order of G-d, Father is the leader, mother his helper, children obedient and respectful, the family follows torah and the ways of G-d and it is a bright shining light that cannot be ignored. It is G-d you represent and G-d they want to avoid. This is the reason for such strong opposition. Take it as an encouragement! You are a bright beacon for G-d.
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BarbB
I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel!
vanilla8 said:
My understanding is that Orthodox women in the USA, particularly NY/NJ, cut their hair short unattractively and use a wig instead. Maybe a head covering on top of the wig, maybe not. But the wig is used as a head covering.
The Orthodox women I saw in Israel wear a snood containing their hair with just the top front of their hair showing. And they look beautiful!
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I don't understand the wig thing, and I even read a bunch of answers defending it on AskMoses.com and STILL didn't understand the rationale behind it.
If the idea is to cover the woman's hair (her glory), and I believe it is, then it doesn't make sense to me to put someone else's (or pretend) hair on your head.
vanilla8, the main thing that helped me to understand is that Israelite men and women all wore headcoverings.
One evidence of this is in a recent Torah portion where we read the instructions for dealing with lepers and how the leper has to keep his head uncovered. This was to differentiate him from the general population who normally wore headcoverings.
Another is in the Torah of jealousy, where the priest removes the woman's veil, so it's obvious that the norm was for a woman to wear a veil.
In Corinthians, my understanding is that Shaul was addressing what was basically a transvestite problem--a man (or men?) wearing a full veil like a woman--and so when he says "we have no such custom", he's letting the new converts know that they're now part of Israel and in Israel we don't wear what pertains to the opposite sex, and we cover our heads, and our women cover their hair completely with a veil (there are different Greek words describing a covering in that passage that make this clear).
Flopsy: What you described makes sense. It is a silent statement when we dress and behave differently from the world.
If the idea is to cover the woman's hair (her glory), and I believe it is, then it doesn't make sense to me to put someone else's (or pretend) hair on your head.
vanilla8, the main thing that helped me to understand is that Israelite men and women all wore headcoverings.
One evidence of this is in a recent Torah portion where we read the instructions for dealing with lepers and how the leper has to keep his head uncovered. This was to differentiate him from the general population who normally wore headcoverings.
Another is in the Torah of jealousy, where the priest removes the woman's veil, so it's obvious that the norm was for a woman to wear a veil.
In Corinthians, my understanding is that Shaul was addressing what was basically a transvestite problem--a man (or men?) wearing a full veil like a woman--and so when he says "we have no such custom", he's letting the new converts know that they're now part of Israel and in Israel we don't wear what pertains to the opposite sex, and we cover our heads, and our women cover their hair completely with a veil (there are different Greek words describing a covering in that passage that make this clear).
Flopsy: What you described makes sense. It is a silent statement when we dress and behave differently from the world.
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Ivy
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BarbB said:I understand that the tallit could have been the "prayer closet" that Paul spoke of. Also, that it could have been the "tents" that he was a maker of.
The last synagogue class I was at, the topic was the tallit.....the rabbi had there the very very large one that a bride and groom are together draped in at one point...people were given a chance to drape themselves in it (it's huge), and it really is like being all by yourself in your prayer closet.
Though someone made a joke that when everyone does it, drapes their tallits even to cover their faces, it looks like a roomful of ghouls.
Love that dry Jewish humor.
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"I don't understand the wig thing, and I even read a bunch of answers defending it on AskMoses.com and STILL didn't understand the rationale behind it."
I dont think the wig thing is Biblical because they chop off thier hair. Anyway here is the reason that they do it as I understand. They say that if a woman wears a veil she might sometime forget but if she has a wig she will always have it on and not go out with out it, something like that. If you go to http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/index.php3
there is a section called Modesty-Tznius
Now maybe it is that they wear wigs because it is just plain ugly? None the less, this is not the traditional Jewish custom for covering the head with a veil and I dont think it is pleasing to G-d that a woman cut the hair He has given her for a glory and then cover it with a man made wig. It was to cover with a veil not shave it off and replace it with fake stuff.
I dont think the wig thing is Biblical because they chop off thier hair. Anyway here is the reason that they do it as I understand. They say that if a woman wears a veil she might sometime forget but if she has a wig she will always have it on and not go out with out it, something like that. If you go to http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/index.php3
there is a section called Modesty-Tznius
Now maybe it is that they wear wigs because it is just plain ugly? None the less, this is not the traditional Jewish custom for covering the head with a veil and I dont think it is pleasing to G-d that a woman cut the hair He has given her for a glory and then cover it with a man made wig. It was to cover with a veil not shave it off and replace it with fake stuff.
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I personally do not cover hardly at all. I have not been convicted on this issue since studying it and I am prayerful that I am following the Spirit's lead in my life. I am also not married.
I, of course, think it's wonderful and lovely when women do cover . I just choose not to unless I need to feel that seperation from my surroundings physcially (you know.. like a "prayer closet").
Still learning!
I, of course, think it's wonderful and lovely when women do cover
. I just choose not to unless I need to feel that seperation from my surroundings physcially (you know.. like a "prayer closet"). Still learning!
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In a totally unrelated topic over in the Marriage Ministry forum, a lady mentioned that she had just finished reading Every Man's Battle, and she said she felt like she should start covering herself from head to toe.
I thought it was interesting that it triggered a response in her which so closely correlates with the tznius guidelines.
I thought it was interesting that it triggered a response in her which so closely correlates with the tznius guidelines.
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Devasha I think that is every believing womans duty. But for covering the head, I beleive that belongs under the heading (no pun intended ) of 'Married women only'.
Edited for typos
) of 'Married women only'.Edited for typos
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vanilla8
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A freind mentioned this discussion to our pastor and he was very disgrunteled (the best word to describe it). He said it was a spiritual request rather than physical and represented a heart condition of submission. Hmm.
It seems that in our Pentecostal eagerness to appear 'free from the law', we have become legalistic against the wearing of a head cover!
When I was growing up, my mum and aunty would never leave the house without a head covering - in winter a warm headsquare (headscarve) and in summer a pretty silky one. And although they were brought up in a christian home, neither went to church.
I do find that wearing a head covering feels like entering a prayer closet, acknowledging to God and man that this time is set apart, out from the world. But as things stand, it would be far too divisive to wear it in church. Which I can't help thinking, is utterly absurd!
It seems that in our Pentecostal eagerness to appear 'free from the law', we have become legalistic against the wearing of a head cover!
When I was growing up, my mum and aunty would never leave the house without a head covering - in winter a warm headsquare (headscarve) and in summer a pretty silky one. And although they were brought up in a christian home, neither went to church.
I do find that wearing a head covering feels like entering a prayer closet, acknowledging to God and man that this time is set apart, out from the world. But as things stand, it would be far too divisive to wear it in church. Which I can't help thinking, is utterly absurd!
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Mikvah (immersion) is a physical expression motivated by a heart condition of submission as well.
Of course it can be argued that someone can do physical things without any transformation of the heart, but from what I read in the Scriptures, YHWH is looking for both:
Deuteronomy 8:2 Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep His commands.
Of course it can be argued that someone can do physical things without any transformation of the heart, but from what I read in the Scriptures, YHWH is looking for both:
Deuteronomy 8:2 Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep His commands.
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