"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

setst777 said:

The Spirit only indwells you when you believe - first you must believe, then you receive the Spirit.

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Based on this, one is in the flesh when they believe, and then they receive the Spirit. Is that correct?

BCsenior said:

So, you believe that BACs can be habitual unrepentant adulterers
until death and still go to heaven?
Or, do you think that God will convince them to repent before death?

Don't forget that all humans are created with free will.
And if they have been brainwashed re: OSAS eternal security,
they might just not be open to correction, thinking they're A-OK.

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See Hebrews 12.

Guojing said:

What gospel do you think Abraham was preached to at genesis 15:5?

Are you assuming it was also 1 cor 15:1-4?

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They received the gospel as it was revealed to them. God’s word is a progressive revelation.

Hammster said:

They received the gospel as it was revealed to them. God’s word is a progressive revelation.

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Would you spell out explicitly what was the gospel preached to Abraham in Genesis 15:5?

Guojing said:

Would you spell out explicitly what was the gospel preached to Abraham in Genesis 15:5?

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You already did.

Hammster said:

Based on this, one is in the flesh when they believe, and then they receive the Spirit. Is that correct?

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I would say this, Hammster, that, although a sinner, being unredeemed, is normally dead in sin being in the flesh, the choice of salvation is not founded on man being in the flesh.

God, offers His saving grace to all through the Gospel Word and Spirit. Every person is given a choice to either receive or reject that gracious invitation. Why?

• God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6),
• and to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32),
• and takes no pleasure in the death of anyone (Ezekiel 33:11; Ezekiel 18:30-32; Matthew 23:37; Romans 10:21).

However, God’s Sovereign will and plan is to save whosoever will believe in His Son (John 6:39-40; John 3:16) – that is the condition, the Covenant to receive the free gift of salvation - not that the condition earns salvation, but that is God's will, that whosever believes may receive eternal life.

Without partiality, God calls, enlightens, and draws, and invites all mankind (Isaiah 45:21-22; John 1:9; John 12:32; Matthew 22:9) to faith through the convicting power of the Living Word (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12), and the worldwide convicting work of the Spirit (John 16:8).

Many will resist and reject the Gospel call or invitation (Acts 7:51-52; Isaiah 63:10; Psalms 106:32-33; Acts 28:27-28; Romans 10:21; Matthew 22:1-8), and so refuse the universal drawing of the Word and Spirit to come to faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:18).

To those who listen (Acts 28:28), these are the humble whom God guides, or draws, and teaches (Psalms 25:9; John 6:44) to come to Christ by faith to be saved (John 3:14-17).

The ones who listen are cut to the heart to the point of repentance. Those who refuse, remain condemned (John 3:18).

Who am I to argue with God. That is His sovereign plan as revealed in His Word.

The Gospel message is an invitation or call to all to believe and be saved, even though many refuse.

But to those who accept, appropriate that saving grace to themselves (Romans 5:1-2)

Matthew 22:8-9 (WEB)
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Isaiah 45:21-22 (WEB)
21 There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior. There is no one besides me.
22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 53:6 (WEB) 6 All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 John 2:2 (WEB) 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

John 1:29 (WEB) 29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 4:42 (WEB) 42 They said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of your speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

John 12:47 (WEB) 47 If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (WEB)
19 … God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (WEB) 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:6 (WEB) 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in its own times

1 Timothy 4:10 (WEB) 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Titus 2:11 (WEB) 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

Hebrews 2:9 (WEB) 9 But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for everyone.

Blessings

Hammster said:

You already did.

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So you do agree that Genesis 15:5 is different from 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Alright then.

setst777 said:

I would say this, Hammster, that, although a sinner, being unredeemed, is normally dead in sin being in the flesh, the choice of salvation is not founded on man being in the flesh.

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I hope you don’t think I’m being disrespectful by not addressing all of your posts. I’m not. It’s just that you aren’t answering the direct questions. Romans 5-8 paint a pretty clear picture of two types of people, ie in Adam or in Christ; slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness; in the flesh or in the Spirit. There’s nothing positive about being in Adam, a slave to righteousness, or in the flesh.

So I can’t see any way that man can do something to please God when he’s at enmity with Him, and wants nothing to do with Him. That’s what being in the flesh means.

Guojing said:

So you do agree that Genesis 15:5 is different from 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Alright then.

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No. The latter is just a fuller revelation.

Hammster said:

I hope you don’t think I’m being disrespectful by not addressing all of your posts. I’m not. It’s just that you aren’t answering the direct questions. Romans 5-8 paint a pretty clear picture of two types of people, ie in Adam or in Christ; slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness; in the flesh or in the Spirit. There’s nothing positive about being in Adam, a slave to righteousness, or in the flesh.

So I can’t see any way that man can do something to please God when he’s at enmity with Him, and wants nothing to do with Him. That’s what being in the flesh means.

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God reaches out to us, through the Gospel Invitation (the indiscriminate call, invitation, conviction, drawing through the Word and Spirit) to rescue us from sin's penalty and power, and to provide salvation.

Hammster said:

No. The latter is just a fuller revelation.

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Many Christians are so obsessed with their doctrine of "There is only ONE gospel", until they cannot read the Bible literally.

Alright then.

setst777 said:

God reaches out to us, through the Gospel Invitation (the indiscriminate call, invitation, conviction, drawing through the Word and Spirit) to rescue us from sin's penalty and power, and to provide salvation.

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Okay. That doesn’t address my point in any way. But okay.

Guojing said:

Many Christians are so obsessed with their doctrine of "There is only ONE gospel", until they cannot read the Bible literally.

Alright then.

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I’m obsessed like Paul.

Hammster said:

Okay. That doesn’t address my point in any way. But okay.

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God's gracious Gospel Call, in effect, allows us the same choice Adam and Eve had to either to faithfully obey God and live, or to reject God's gracious provision.

setst777 said:

God's gracious Gospel Call, in effect, allows us the same choice Adam and Eve had to either to faithfully obey God and live, or to reject God's gracious provision.

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Yeah, okay. Since you won’t say whether a positive choice is made in the flesh or the Spirit, let me ask you this. Why must we born again? What can the regenerate do that the unregenerate cannot?

Hammster said:

Yeah, okay. Since you won’t say whether a positive choice is made in the flesh or the Spirit, let me ask you this. Why must we born again? What can the regenerate do that the unregenerate cannot?

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Before regeneration, we are able to respond in repentance and faith, which means: a commitment to leave the old life behind, and then to commit to Lord Jesus to follow him into a life of holiness and love.

The commitment made is impossible to fulfill on our own, but once we reveal to God our repentance and faith, that is when the Holy Spirit indwells the believe to empower His faith to be victorious.

For we receive the Spirit by faith.

By faith (a Gospel Faith) God’s Spirit indwells those who repent after learning the Gospel Word.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

When we believe in Jesus with the kind of faith demonstrated by repentance and the commitment to follow Jesus, then the Spirit indwells us to make us alive inside, empowering our faith to be victorious.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 4:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Spirit of Christ IN you is when regeneration begins. We only receive the Spirit by faith.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The Spirit IN us is how we are made alive.

That is why Lord Jesus said that by faith in Him we are turned from death to life, darkness to light.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. (Isaiah 60:1). He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

setst777 said:

Before regeneration, we are able to respond in repentance and faith, which means: a commitment to leave the old life behind, and then to commit to Lord Jesus to follow him into a life of holiness and love.

The commitment made is impossible to fulfill on our own, but once we reveal to God our repentance and faith, that is when the Holy Spirit indwells the believe to empower His faith to be victorious.

For we receive the Spirit by faith.

By faith (a Gospel Faith) God’s Spirit indwells those who repent after learning the Gospel Word.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

When we believe in Jesus with the kind of faith demonstrated by repentance and the commitment to follow Jesus, then the Spirit indwells us to make us alive inside, empowering our faith to be victorious.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 4:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Spirit of Christ IN you is when regeneration begins. We only receive the Spirit by faith.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The Spirit IN us is how we are made alive.

That is why Lord Jesus said that by faith in Him we are turned from death to life, darkness to light.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. (Isaiah 60:1). He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

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I’m not sure my question was answered specifically. So let me try this. Can the unregenerate love God?

set777

Before regeneration, we are able to respond in repentance and faith, which means: a commitment to leave the old life behind, and then to commit to Lord Jesus to follow him into a life of holiness and love.

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I dont think that's accurate friend. Before regeneration/new birth we are carnal and solely in the flesh, and here's the indictment Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

timothyu said:

Oh right. Nothing applies to us that Jesus said. He wasn't our Messiah. Forgot.

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I never intended that. "In him are found all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

He called Paul to teach us, so that teaching for the "uncircumcision" is from Him to us. In His earthly ministry He was addressing Israel primarily. That matters in terms of doctrine, as is evidenced by these threads where most of the time the source of doctrine is the Gospels and the Hebrew epistles (notice how those are neatly divided in our Bible?).

Cephas, James and John agreed on this (see: Galatians) and sent Paul and Barnabas off with the right hand of fellowship, while they went to the "circumcision". It's sad to watch the clear distinctions in Paul's "my gospel" (can you find any other apostle claiming such?) Ninja'd with those of the circumcision. I'm not inventing this issue, it's there in the Word.

I am not against any Scripture and learn from it all. I was listening to Psalm 119 while cycling yesterday. I love it, but some distinctions have to be made in the doctrine given at that time and that of today (yes, via Paul primarily). To pretend otherwise is futile.

setst777 said:

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

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You see a word sequence to mean time sequence and cause sequence. How nicely these line up for you! But even in English we don't always mean time sequence, nor cause sequence, when we speak this way. BTW, you still have not shown how the dead can submit to God's law. (Romans 8)

setst777 said:

John 14:15-17 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

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This can go several ways, one of which is pretty obvious from the context, which is that Christ was with them, and they were in no need of the Holy Spirit, but to me that one doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit was not with them in some measure. Another one is that they Holy Spirit was not given to those whom God chose, before the death of Christ, but I consider that as bogus, because even David says, "take not the Holy Spirit from me", and we see various acts of the Spirit in the OT, plus he even causes in one case a pagan to prophesy. The Spirit will do as it will, and it was around from the very beginning.

It probably should mentioned that in Reformed Theology, the claim that the indwelling of the Spirit, or more specifically the INSTALLING of the Spirit within, means not that the Spirit has been given in full measure. One's faith may not be as strong as another's-- Salvific Faith is not a matter of degree, but of kind. If this faith comes from us, it has to be a matter of degree, and no degree of sincerity, of will power, of integrity, of knowledge or understanding, of false creatures is up to the job. But any measure (degree) of the Spirit of truth is all truth, with complete understanding, knowledge, integrity, will, and power. Thus it must come from God, not from us.

So it comes from us, only in that it comes from him within us.

setst777 said:

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

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Again, you see sequence implied where it is not necessary to do so. However, if you insist on it, (and you will hear this again below), notice that when Christ implies a certain displacement, that if he is here the Spirit is not, he does not say the Spirit is not at all, and we even see a moment when the Spirit manifests as a dove descending upon him at his baptism. To me it is silly to say that Christ leaves people to their own devices and integrity and love, and at the same time says, "Without me you can do nothing". Do you honestly believe that Christ's mere presence is not also the presence of the Spirit of Christ? Or do you separate the Spirit of Christ from the Spirit of God?

setst777 said:

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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Remember that Christ did not say the Spirit is not here in some measure, while Christ is here.

Like most of these, you see sequence with the word, "and", as causation. There is no proof here.

setst777 said:

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) Bolding mine… 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

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What was he referring to, indwelling or filling? Degree? You really don't know. Are there no references to "measure" of the
Spirit within? (see John 3:34) Degree (measure) of the Spirit does not increase nor decrease the truth of the Spirit, which is all truth.

setst777 said:

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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This also proves nothing for you. This verse is another one that shows that God will indeed bring all the Elect to himself --including Elect from among the Gentiles-- by faith, which is by God, from God. I want to remark here, too, the use of the word, 'receive' --not 'accept'-- , the implication being that we are receptacles; the implication that our will is the hinge of the will and act of God is not shown here. We are receptacles of the Spirit, which does as it will.

setst777 said:

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory

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Sequence again.

setst777 said:

So what is the will of the Spirit?...

Does the Spirit indwell us so we can believe, or do we believe so the Spirit may indwell us?

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The Spirit indwells, not so as to allow us to believe, but to cause us to believe.

setst777 said:

When we believe in Jesus with the kind of faith demonstrated by repentance and following Jesus, then the Spirit indwells us to make us alive inside, empowering our faith to be victorious.

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You merely assert sequence, where you have not been demonstrated it.

setst777 said:

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

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This, and what happens in Acts, does not deny the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, before he filled them at Pentecost. Remember, the degree (measure) of the Spirit makes no difference as to the power and truth (the substance) of the Spirit.

setst777 said:

God's Holy Word stands.

And I stand on God's Word. I will not fall away into deceptions of what men say that go against God's Word.

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Noble of you. Perhaps God will thank you for your integrity.

How would you feel if I were to imply you had fallen away into deceptions of the teaching of men, by my saying the same thing? Your righteous indignation is based on YOUR take of Scripture, at best, and based on your presuppositions that color your every thought. Man has NO INTEGRITY, no understanding, but has gone his own way, contrary to God. THIS is the dead man you think can somehow, contrary to scripture, come up with salvific faith!

setst777 said:

You can say wrong all you want, I quoted your own words.

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Yes, you did quote my own words, but first you said you learned from me that I believed something that was not a quote from me. I did not say the things you said you had learned from me. You merely took what I said, to mean something I did not say. This is where things go south with me and those who want to discuss.

This is where I begin to balk at refuting verse by verse the individual verses (I notice, not often, passages) they think teach what they believe to be the case. Don't expect me to discuss much further without a bit of relenting on your part of your "righteous indignation". I don't need it.