Have you done any good with your judging?

Zaac · Aug 8, 2007

dawnsday said:
please, as I asked others to not personally attack you, I would appreciate it if you don't personally attack others.

See now you're being silly. I point out to you what he said about me and I'm attacking him?

And I believe what he meant was how "many so-called christians that he has met..."

I didn't ask you what you believe he meant. What did he say?

but see what happens when the wording gets messed up.

His wording didn't get messed up. He said the same thing he has repeatedly said about anyone who disagrees with his position.

many so-called christians i know have spewed hatred towards homosexuals.

Yep, I conceded that point a long time ago. Has nothing to do with you tacitly overlooking apparently the same behavior by the gay people in this forum

not all, maybe not even most.

but it's a truth that is out there that must change if we are to call ourselves the body of christ.

Absolute truth does not change. You've just got plenty of folks professing to be something they are not and the Body of Christ need not be aligned with them.

UnitedInChrist · Aug 8, 2007

Zaac said:
See what I mean dawnsday. You say anything against their viewpoint and you're spewing hate.

And yet again, because it does not say what he wants it to say, it's my bigotry.

Like I said before dawn, the only ones I have seen calling anyone names are the pro-homosexual fornication people.

You just don't get it..and are blinded by your own narrow-mindedness. It has NOTHING to do with you not agreeing with me. I don't need you to agree with me on anything..that is not the point here at all. There is NO NAME calling here. I CALL you on what you say because YOU my friend are taking the position as the KNOW IT ALL! you are NOT...I'm sorry to break it to you. YOUR WORD is just that...YOURS! Not mine, and no one elses. Do NOT say it is GOD's WORD b/c you are NOT GOD..and I speak to HIM myself. I don't need YOU to call people "pro homosexual fornicators" when you simply say that to offend people. What if I were to call you a backward southern redneck? Does that not set you up to become defensive??? Yes it does. There are NUMEROUS people on these threads that are NOT ok with homosexuality, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ONE, they accept that it is VERY REAL and how to deal with it. YOU, ZAAC, on the otherhand come across with "I KNOW GODs WORD"...and you say we are "FOLLOWING FALSE GODS" etc...that, my friend, is NOT for you to say. Can you get your mind around that or is that too much ??? I'm not sure. In any event, I'm not going toe toe with you on anything b/c you already proved what you are about, and what your mission here is...that to spew, and shove down peoples throats what YOU believe and then package it up as "God's word". I'm not interested in hearing God's word from you at all.

dawnsday · Aug 8, 2007

UberLutheran said:
You know -- yours are some of the most intelligent and honest questions I've seen come through on this board in quite awhile!

I know a lot of gay people who have rejected the church and Christianity because of the really rotten way they were treated. People who covered their behavior in "loving the sinner and hating the sin" were so despicable in how they went about "loving the sinner" that they alienated these gay people from the church, and God, and Jesus, and Christianity.

I realized I had "teh ghey" when I was eight and ran across two of the "clobber passages" (Leviticus 18 and Romans 1:26-32). I tried ignoring it (didn't work), praying it away (didn't work, either), trying to "be straight" (nobody believed me), mortification of the flesh (it hurt a lot, but I was still gay), and even suicide (the belt broke) and when I finally realized that "teh ghey" wasn't going away no matter how many times I turned my life over to Jesus, I might as well just accept it and accept the fact that I was not the very first gay person ever to appear in Christianity.

If I had been raised in a non-religious family -- I'm really not sure where I would stand with regards to Christianity.

I have been told many times that the reason I'm a non-literalist Christian is because I'm "trying to justify my sinful lifestyle". Actually, the real reason I'm a non-literalist Christian has to do with trying to reconcile an understanding of the world which is 2,000 to 6,000 years old with how we understand the world today; and the fact that people 6,000 years ago believed in dragons and sea monsters and talking snakes and talking donkeys does not mean there are (or ever have been ) dragons, sea monsters, talking snakes and talking donkeys -- but the stories which contain those elements are hardly irrelevant and there may be a great deal of actual, big-"T" Truth in a story about Jonah who was supposedly swallowed by a whale and spit up on land - and that truth might be that stiff-necked and self-righteous Jonah couldn't accept the fact that God had mercy enough to forgive Nineveh, but he still expected God to be merciful enough provide a shade tree to comfort Jonah!

Thanks! I appreciate that...I am more then not told I have no faith for being how I am.

I would love it if you could share some common examples of things said to homosexuals that put them off and also on what kind of things you think would draw them into at least being curious about Christianity...

dawnsday · Aug 8, 2007

UnitedInChrist said:
Perhaps you are right. I simply pointed out what is a stereotype...which is not right I know. I only did it to show he plays into the stereotype hook, line, and sinker. Certainly ask any questions you'd like. Right now I am part of my church ministering to gay youth in our local community, and further out from our church. It's been a great experience. We see similar characteristics with many youths when it comes to those that are told "you can't be gay and follow God". It's just not true. Of course, many of these come from ultra-strict denominations. I will say for the Catholics however, they have an organization called "Courage". It is NOTHING like ex-gay ministries that are fanatical with changing someone via extreme measures, but it is an organzation that RECOGNIZES homosexuality, AND HOW TO DEAL with it AND your religion. It does not stress CHANGE at all. Sexuality can be abused by anyone, and to do so is a sin regardless. sexuality in/of itself is NOT sinful... this is what the difference is. To teach our youth that loving someone is sin and will not bring you into Christ's family is spiritual abuse..pure and simple. It is not acceptable, and it is up to our CHristian community to witness these people through Jesus' teaching of social justice. As our minister often says with his Sunday sermons...God doesn't love us unconditinally.....he loves us UNCONTROLABLY!!!! he can't help but to love us...All for whom we are..and all the way he made us to be.

I love that, the focus seems so right. Lead them to the Lord and let their relationship with HIM determine the things the do or do not need to change.

Tell more~!

dawnsday · Aug 8, 2007

UnitedInChrist said:
You just don't get it..and are blinded by your own narrow-mindedness. It has NOTHING to do with you not agreeing with me. I don't need you to agree with me on anything..that is not the point here at all. There is NO NAME calling here. I CALL you on what you say because YOU my friend are taking the position as the KNOW IT ALL! you are NOT...I'm sorry to break it to you. YOUR WORD is just that...YOURS! Not mine, and no one elses. Do NOT say it is GOD's WORD b/c you are NOT GOD..and I speak to HIM myself. I don't need YOU to call people "pro homosexual fornicators" when you simply say that to offend people. What if I were to call you a backward southern redneck? Does that not set you up to become defensive??? Yes it does. There are NUMEROUS people on these threads that are NOT ok with homosexuality, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ONE, they accept that it is VERY REAL and how to deal with it. YOU, ZAAC, on the otherhand come across with "I KNOW GODs WORD"...and you say we are "FOLLOWING FALSE GODS" etc...that, my friend, is NOT for you to say. Can you get your mind around that or is that too much ??? I'm not sure. In any event, I'm not going toe toe with you on anything b/c you already proved what you are about, and what your mission here is...that to spew, and shove down peoples throats what YOU believe and then package it up as "God's word". I'm not interested in hearing God's word from you at all.

inherit the wind anyone?

sorry i love that movie can't help but reference it around here a lot.

UnitedInChrist · Aug 8, 2007

dawnsday said:
I love that, the focus seems so right. Lead them to the Lord and let their relationship with HIM determine the things the do or do not need to change.

Tell more~!

Sure. Ask me what you would like to know..I'll share with you all that you want.

UnitedInChrist · Aug 8, 2007

double post..sorry

HaloHope · Aug 9, 2007

Zaac said:
Didn't I say that?

Didn't I say that too in explaining the difference between righteous judgment and hypocritical judgment?

Im afraid the righteous judgement being displayed on this forums (by some anti-gay people at least) isn't remotely righteous. Unless of course the defention of righteous has suddenly changed to "not righteous whatsoever, and instead purposefully designed to attack people on a personal level", then you may actually be on to something.

Apollo Celestio · Aug 9, 2007

UnitedinChrist, what kind of attitude is that? You seem to be doing what you are accusing others of. It appears you're falling victim to your own defense. And most people here oppose homosexual acts because of what the Bible says, you know,God's word. He didn't make it up himself. UberLutheran, I hope your surgery goes well, if it happened already and went well, praise God. If not, I'll keep praying for ya. I won't add to the debate because it's a circle. It's not anti-gay (At least not by the posters in this thread.) Moreso Anti-sin, which is what we all ought to be.

UnitedInChrist · Aug 9, 2007

Ishida said:
UnitedinChrist, what kind of attitude is that? You seem to be doing what you are accusing others of. It appears you're falling victim to your own defense. And most people here oppose homosexual acts because of what the Bible says, you know,God's word. He didn't make it up himself. UberLutheran, I hope your surgery goes well, if it happened already and went well, praise God. If not, I'll keep praying for ya. I won't add to the debate because it's a circle. It's not anti-gay (At least not by the posters in this thread.) Moreso Anti-sin, which is what we all ought to be.

You are correct. I do fall victim which is why I chose to ignore Zaac from going forward. This way I don't have to read his comments..and we'll all be better for it. As for "most people"...most people HERE do not oppose homosexuality simply b/c the bible never does address it. Sure, someones interpretation can find what it is they are looking for...but I follow the original text which doesn't speak to loving sex at all...simply sex acts of pagans, rapists, and violence as is demonsrated in the bible.

MercyBurst · Aug 9, 2007

dawnsday said:
I see a million posts about "gays are sinners" blah blah blah. But, here is a question for all of you who are so stuck on picking on the Gay community.

For all your condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates, have any of you, honestly, ever brought a gay person closer to Christ?

For the Gay people, has the condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates pushed you further away and solidified your dislike in Christianity?

If so, I think that it would be safe to say that this kind of behavior is doing much more damage then good and should stop immediately, because God is willing that NONE should perish and here are people claiming to be a child of God that are basically pushing others further and further from His love.

Good, until they repent, perhaps it is best they leave the church body. In the mean time our church body needs to heal from the false doctrine they brought with them. I'm looking out for the church body FIRST. The health of our church body is much more important than the arrogant pride of unbelievers.

When one part of the body is sick then the whole body is sick. As christians it IS OUR BUSINESS when the body is sick. It MUST heal. The gangrenous doctrine must be removed. That's why we "pick" at this sore on the church body. It needs medicine.

dawnsday · Aug 9, 2007

just read the one below

dawnsday · Aug 9, 2007

UnitedInChrist said:
Sure. Ask me what you would like to know..I'll share with you all that you want.

I'm not sure to ask, what kind of discussions do you have, do you have awareness programs? do some of them disagree on whether it is or is not a sin to be gay? how would/do you handle that?

dawnsday · Aug 9, 2007

Ishida said:
UnitedinChrist, what kind of attitude is that? You seem to be doing what you are accusing others of. It appears you're falling victim to your own defense. And most people here oppose homosexual acts because of what the Bible says, you know,God's word. He didn't make it up himself. UberLutheran, I hope your surgery goes well, if it happened already and went well, praise God. If not, I'll keep praying for ya. I won't add to the debate because it's a circle. It's not anti-gay (At least not by the posters in this thread.) Moreso Anti-sin, which is what we all ought to be.

i am just curious to why everyone has to be all "oooo gays bad" when that's not even the topic I was asking on...I was specifically concerned with the methods and the harshness and hatred specifically against homosexuals and perhaps there are better ways to show Christ's love and sacrifice, while still being honest about one's interpretation of the bible...

Zaac · Aug 9, 2007

dawnsday said:
so, if homosexuality is a sin, you are saying that anyone who is a homosexual should not get to go to church.

That's not what she said, so why ask if that's what she's saying for any other reason than to make your follow-up point?

Again , there is a church-discipline process. And if something is corrupting the body because it is at odds with the HEAD, chop it off.

The Church has sat around for too long letting all sorts of unGodliness go unchecked. Pluck it out.

dawnsday · Aug 9, 2007

Zaac said:
That's not what she said, so why ask if that's what she's saying for any other reason than to make your follow-up point?

Again , there is a church-discipline process. And if something is corrupting the body because it is at odds with the HEAD, chop it off.

The Church has sat around for too long letting all sorts of unGodliness go unchecked. Pluck it out.

Zaac, I wasn't talking to you, I was asking her, because that's how I read it and if I am wrong, I more then welcome HER to correct me. It's the internet, sometimes there are miscommunications.

dawnsday · Aug 9, 2007

MercyBurst said:
Good, until they repent, perhaps it is best they leave the church body. In the mean time our church body needs to heal from the false doctrine they brought with them. I'm looking out for the church body FIRST. The health of our church body is much more important than the arrogant pride of unbelievers.

When one part of the body is sick then the whole body is sick. As christians it IS OUR BUSINESS when the body is sick. It MUST heal. The gangrenous doctrine must be removed. That's why we "pick" at this sore on the church body. It needs medicine.

in case things were miscontrued, my question is this: are you saying that continuous sinning is reason to block a person from the church body?

And then to add, it's my personal opinion that everyone DOES sin, (not did, does), and I have never met anyone who doesn't, so that would make for a weak body, wouldn't it?

Is it not better to care for them, lead them to Christ's mercy and let Christ Himself convict them towards the changes they may need. If He wants us to say something, then we should speak up, but I can't imagine Him wanting us to be arrogant, judgemental or hateful with our words.

PS: love the use of the word gangrenous...i'm totally using that in a sentence today.
if so, then should we not include EVERYONE who does this?

Zaac · Aug 9, 2007

dawnsday said:
Zaac, I wasn't talking to you, I was asking her, because that's how I read it and if I am wrong, I more then welcome HER to correct me. It's the internet, sometimes there are miscommunications.

Its an open forum. You don't have to be talking to me for me to respond to your statements. I responded because there was no miscommunication. You were simply doing what so many in this forum do:

You read something into her comments that she DID NOT say and then you proceded to extrapolate and make points against something she did not say.

You're doing what many who come into this forum do. You say you're here for understanding or because you don't like the way one side is being treated. And you may very well not like that.

But then you, either knowingly or unknowingly, go on to make it look like one side has said something that was not said in order to support your initial point.

If you take issue with the way you feel the Christian's are treating those who espouse the belief that gay sexual acts are nonsinful, then deal with what they say and not what you presume them to be saying.

dawnsday · Aug 9, 2007

Zaac said:
Its an open forum. You don't have to be talking to me for me to respond to your statements. I responded because there was no miscommunication. You were simply doing what so many in this forum do:

You read something into her comments that she DID NOT say and then you proceded to extrapolate and make points against something she did not say.

You're doing what many who come into this forum do. You say you're here for understanding or because you don't like the way one side is being treated. And you may very well not like that.

But then you, either knowingly or unknowingly, go on to make it look like one side has said something that was not said in order to support your initial point.

If you take issue with the way you feel the Christian's are treating those who espouse the belief that gay sexual acts are nonsinful, then deal with what they say and not what you presume them to be saying.

AS I SAID: I was talking to HER so if I misread HER statement and SHE would like to correct me, then that is fine, but YOU did not state what I commented on, so I am NOT going to ask YOU to clarify what SHE said.

I commented on what she said, to the best of my understanding, so do NOT presume to know what my intentions are.

You are actually really starting to get to me, which is rare, because I believe, though we all fall short of God's glory, we should be bonded in our love for Christ.

But when someone warps and uses MY SAVIOR to raise themselves above others, I take that as an insult to my faith and as blasphomey (sp???).

If you take issue with the way you feel the Christian's are treating those who espouse the belief that gay sexual acts are nonsinful, then deal with what they say and not what you presume them to be saying

I am not talking about people who disagree with homosexuality! I am talking about those who are MEAN to them and do not show the love of Christ! Those who see them and treat them as lesser as if their sin is greater, if it is a sin.

I have not ONCE stated that I am trying to have ANY conversation about whether homosexuality is WRONG or NOT. IN FACT I have not once mentioned my personal views on it, whether I believe it is a sin or not a sin. I did that SPECIFICALLY so I could AVOID that conversation.

YOU are the one who keeps on ranting about it being wrong....but that is NOT the issue! The topic is the METHODS many use to TALK to people who live this lifestyle, the topic is about being CARING in the process of being honest. I have repeated it over and over again and you have not seemed to get it. I am actually just trying to better myself and share some thoughts with others.

If I comment incorrectly regarding someone's post, then they are MORE then welcome to correct me and I hope they do so, because I would hate to misunderstand.

So back off, please, because NOTHING you have said is productive whatsoever regarding the ACTUAL topic of this conversation.

MOVING ON:

Has anyone ever "changed" a homosexual or led them to change? Has anyone here ever convinced a non-religious homosexual to go to church and seek out the lord? How did you manage/handle that? What was the reaction of the other person?

Zaac · Aug 9, 2007

dawnsday said:
AS I SAID: I was talking to HER so if I misread HER statement and SHE would like to correct me, then that is fine, but YOU did not state what I commented on, so I am NOT going to ask YOU to clarify what SHE said.

And as I said, it's an open forum. If you don't want public response, send an email.

I commented on what she said, to the best of my understanding, so do NOT presume to know what my intentions are.

You made clear what your intentions were with your followup questions. You had a point to make, and in order to make it, you had to presume she was saying something that had not been said.

You are actually really starting to get to me, which is rare, because I believe, though we all fall short of God's glory, we should be bonded in our love for Christ.

Don't let me get to you. But like I said, stick with what people say. That's why so many are confused about God's Word. Everyone wants to read something into it and start making assumptions instead of dealing with what is there. That's exactly what you did with Mercy's post. Then you started into her as though she had done something wrong about something she didn't even say.

I am not talking about people who disagree with homosexuality! I am talking about those who are MEAN to them and do not show the love of Christ! Those who see them and treat them as lesser as if their sin is greater, if it is a sin.

And as I've stated, you're bringing stuff from outside this forum and ascribing it to this forum because what you're talking about is few and far between in this forum. Look at the people who have remained consistent with God's Word and what it says and how they respond to people in the forum, and then look at how those people are responded to.

If yoou want to see mean look at that. And let me just say, those are the ones saying they are gay Christians. So if you're going to speak to the issue of mean, make sure they are included.

I have not ONCE stated that I am trying to have ANY conversation about whether homosexuality is WRONG or NOT. IN FACT I have not once mentioned my personal views on it, whether I believe it is a sin or not a sin. I did that SPECIFICALLY so I could AVOID that conversation.

YOU are the one who keeps on ranting about it being wrong....but that is NOT the issue! The topic is the METHODS many use to TALK to people who live this lifestyle, the topic is about being CARING in the process of being honest. I have repeated it over and over again and you have not seemed to get it. I am actually just trying to better myself and share some thoughts with others.

I don't rant and the issue of it being wrong has not been raised by me other than as an identifier of the ones who are ranting, and pointing out to you that you're continuing to overlook who the onesare who are talking "mean."

If I comment incorrectly regarding someone's post, then they are MORE then welcome to correct me and I hope they do so, because I would hate to misunderstand.

So back off, please, because NOTHING you have said is productive whatsoever regarding the ACTUAL topic of this conversation.

MOVING ON:

If you take your own advice and stick to the topic instead of putting words into someone's mouth that they have not said, I wouldn't have to respond to it.

Has anyone ever "changed" a homosexual or led them to change? Has anyone here ever convinced a non-religious homosexual to go to church and seek out the lord? How did you manage/handle that? What was the reaction of the other person?

Nope. People break free from sin because of Jesus Christ. God does not task the Christian to convince anyone of anything. Which is why instead of trying to orchestrate a salvation by our own design, we need to stop trying to change people or convince them.

God has commissioned His people to GO! and preach the Gospel. He has not commissioned us to change anyone. That's HIS work.

Have you done any good with your judging?

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