Have you done any good with your judging?

[dawnsday]

I see a million posts about "gays are sinners" blah blah blah. But, here is a question for all of you who are so stuck on picking on the Gay community.

For all your condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates, have any of you, honestly, ever brought a gay person closer to Christ?

For the Gay people, has the condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates pushed you further away and solidified your dislike in Christianity?

If so, I think that it would be safe to say that this kind of behavior is doing much more damage then good and should stop immediately, because God is willing that NONE should perish and here are people claiming to be a child of God that are basically pushing others further and further from His love.

 

[Zaac]

I see a million posts about "gays are sinners" blah blah blah.

Is there anyone on this board who is not a sinner? If so, why not refer to gays as sinners?

But, here is a question for all of you who are so stuck on picking on the Gay community.

Go to the other communities. Christians speak to sin. many in this forum think we pick on gays with little ragrd that it's a forum to debate on homosexuality.

If you expected everyone to be in agreement with you, then you picked the wrong forum. It is a Christian forum and most align themselves with God's Word. So you should expect responses that are in opposition.

For all your condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates, have any of you, honestly, ever brought a gay person closer to Christ?

Have you brought anyone closer by encouraging them to continue in sin?

For the Gay people, has the condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates pushed you further away and solidified your dislike in Christianity?

That's a cop out. If there is a separation between them and Christ, it's because of unrepentant sin, specifically their unrepentant sin and no one else's.

If so, I think that it would be safe to say that this kind of behavior is doing much more damage then good and should stop immediately, because God is willing that NONE should perish and here are people claiming to be a child of God that are basically pushing others further and further from His love.

Do homosexuals push folks toward His love by endorsing sin?

 

[HaloHope]

I see a million posts about "gays are sinners" blah blah blah. But, here is a question for all of you who are so stuck on picking on the Gay community.

For all your condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates, have any of you, honestly, ever brought a gay person closer to Christ?

For the Gay people, has the condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates pushed you further away and solidified your dislike in Christianity?

If so, I think that it would be safe to say that this kind of behavior is doing much more damage then good and should stop immediately, because God is willing that NONE should perish and here are people claiming to be a child of God that are basically pushing others further and further from His love.

The type of condemnation seen towards gays on this forum is simply going to cost souls rather than gain them because people are pushing others away from God. I firmly believe that every time a Christian calls a gay person (who isnt of strong Christian faith already) they are disgusting, an abomination etc.. they make the path to Heaven even narrower. But again Im beginning to think thats what they want anyway.. they view heaven as an exclusive club where anyone who dosen't fit inside their little box of a world dosent belong.

 

[dawnsday]

Is there anyone on this board who is not a sinner? If so, why not refer to gays as sinners?

that's not my point, but that is true. everyone is a sinner

Go to the other communities. Christians speak to sin. many in this forum think we pick on gays with little ragrd that it's a forum to debate on homosexuality.

debating is one thing, attacking, judging and hating on them as human beings is my problem

If you expected everyone to be in agreement with you, then you picked the wrong forum. It is a Christian forum and most align themselves with God's Word. So you should expect responses that are in opposition.

i expect all christians to be in agreement that we are to love one another, as Christ loves us, and the actions and hatred towards the gay community are not examples of that. I am not speaking about those who earnestly want to lead others to Christ by being honest and saying "I think homosexuality is sin and this is why. I sin also, and I pray that we all my be freed from it. Let me tell you of the gift God gave us, so that may be possible."

I'm talking about those who say "Gay! SINNER! You are disgusting filthy and going to hell!!!!"

Have you brought anyone closer by encouraging them to continue in sin?

I never said I encourage anyone to sin, in fact I did not say whether I feel homosexuality is a sin or not, I am talking about the hatred and judgemental actions so many people use against gays.

That's a cop out. If there is a separation between them and Christ, it's because of unrepentant sin, specifically their unrepentant sin and no one else's.

No it is not a cop out. We as Christians are responsible for sharing and showinig Christ's love. Imagine how many people could have come to Him if they would not have been chased away with hatred. Maybe even then, if they felt their actions were sins, they would have felt moved to stop.

When someone avoids our faith because of our example then it is partially OUR fault that they could not see His love in US.

If we are the body...why aren't we showing His love?

Do homosexuals push folks toward His love by endorsing sin?

if they aren't Christian then it is not their responsibility.

 

[Zaac]

The type of condemnation seen towards gays on this forum is simply going to cost souls rather than gain them because people are pushing others away from God.

Condemnation. Hate. Bigotry. All words bandied about by you guys because folks disagree with you.

People are set free by the truth that is God's Word. What does telling lies do?

I firmly believe that every time a Christian calls a gay person (who isnt of strong Christian faith already) they are disgusting, an abomination etc.. they make the path to Heaven even narrower.

In accordance with God's Word, Matthew 7:13-14, the path is already narrow. Nothing we do affects that path. It is the one's who want to walk their own path who are attempting to widen a path that can't be widened.

But again Im beginning to think thats what they want anyway.. they view heaven as an exclusive club where anyone who dosen't fit inside their little box of a world dosent belong.

It is exclusive. You can only get in through the truth that is Jesus Christ. So no, you don't get to decide that your right is wrong or that your wrong is right. Christ has already done this. And if you don't do it HIS way, then no, you won't be inthe Kingdom.

 

[HaloHope]

It is exclusive. You can only get in through the truth that is Jesus Christ. So no, you don't get to decide that your right is wrong or that your wrong is right. Christ has already done this. And if you don't do it HIS way, then no, you won't be inthe Kingdom.

I see no evidence of the majority of opinions you state being at all in line with "his way". Bottom line is God loves and accepts everyone, he helps free us from sin for sure (hes freed me from many of my own) but homosexuality isn't something anyone needs to be set free from.

I shall take my advice from God. Not from a forum. Or another human.

 

[Zaac]

debating is one thing, attacking, judging and hating on them as human beings is my problem

Again, you have made a judgment to reach that conclusion. Yet you have unrighteously judged for in looking at this forum, if you're going to cast that on the non-Gay people, you might as well say the same about the gay people.

AIn't nobody been attacked. Ain't nobody been judged any more than you yourself are now making judgments. And no one has shown that they hate someone because they are gay.

You're perpetuating a myth.

i expect all christians to be in agreement that we are to love one another, as Christ loves us, and the actions and hatred towards the gay community are not examples of that.

What does loving you or any other gay person have to do with telling you that in accordance with God's Word, fornicative homosexual acts are just as wrong as fornicative heterosexual acts?

Does a parent hate a child when he tells the child that he is doing wrong?

I am not speaking about those who earnestly want to lead others to Christ by being honest and saying "I think homosexuality is sin and this is why. I sin also, and I pray that we all my be freed from it. Let me tell you of the gift God gave us, so that may be possible."

Who cares what anyone THINKS? That's how yall keep opening the door wide for the devil's confusion.

Why do people refuse to align themselves with what GOD SAYS instead of what they think?

I'm talking about those who say "Gay! SINNER! You are disgusting filthy and going to hell!!!!"

Fringe group. There are very few people in this forum who say that cause we know your sin is no greater than our own.

I never said I encourage anyone to sin, in fact I did not say whether I feel homosexuality is a sin or not, I am talking about the hatred and judgemental actions so many people use against gays.

Then righteously judge because if nothing else, this forum has shown that the actions that yall keep ascribing to non gays is the very same actions being used by gays in this forum.

So if the nongays are hate-filled and judgmental you've got to righteously judge and say that the gays are also.

No it is not a cop out. We as Christians are responsible for sharing and showinig Christ's love. Imagine how many people could have come to Him if they would not have been chased away with hatred. Maybe even then, if they felt their actions were sins, they would have felt moved to stop.

NOTHING you do can draw a person to Christ. Christ draws men unto Himself. And if they CHOOSE to reject Him as HE gives them truth to draw them, that rejection is because of THEM and the condition of THEIR heart. No one else.

When someone avoids our faith because of our example then it is partially OUR fault that they could not see His love in US.

Again, that's a personal choice just like folks on here make a personal choice to deem those who tell them the truth hateful and bigoted.

If we are the body...why aren't we showing His love?

What's more loving: to give them God's truth that makes men free, or to side with them and give them a lie because you don't want to offend someone?

If they are unsaved, I'd much rather offend them than have them go to hell. If they are a Christian, I would much rather offend them than have their false witness be a stumbling block for an unsaved person on the way to hell.

if they aren't Christian then it is not their responsibility.

I didn't ask you that. I asked if they were pushing people toward God 's love by endorsing sin?

If you feel that Christians, by telling the truth, push folks away from God's love, then shouldn't it stand to reason that gays, by endorsing the committing of fornicative homosexual acts, would be pushing folks toward God's love?

Is that happening?

 

[Zaac]

I see no evidence of the majority of opinions you state being at all in line with "his way".

Then stop looking at people's opinions and look at what God SAYS.

Bottom line is God loves and accepts everyone, he helps free us from sin for sure (hes freed me from many of my own) but homosexuality isn't something anyone needs to be set free from.

The bottom line is that even though Jesus Christ died so that all could be saved, some CHOOSE to not accept His gift.

Your statement above is filled with your opinion.

What does the Word of God say?

I shall take my advice from God. Not from a forum. Or another human.

And where are you getting this advice? Is God speaking to you? How do you know it's God? Satan speaks too. Are you testing the spirits to see if it is of God? What are you using as your test? God says to use His Word. To use His Word you have to accept what He says as absolute truth.

Do you accept what He says in His Word absolute truth?

If so, why isn't what you're saying aligning with that Word?

 

[HaloHope]

If so, why isn't what you're saying aligning with that Word?

It is, it just isnt aligning with your personal interpretation of his word.

 

[UberLutheran]

Well, if you really want to know, Zaac: you've made it MUCH harder for me to hear what Baptist Christians are trying to say, or to even want to listen to what they are trying to say.

I don't know where you get some of the claims you make about gay people and sheep urine, gay people having short life expectancies, gay people being unable to love their partners, etc. -- because I'm well into my 50s and I know couples who are in their 70s and 80s; and I've been with my partner for 17 years and I know couples who have been together 40, 50 and even over 55 years; and I don't know what straight people do with sheep urine but I tend to avoid it like the plague (I grew up on a farm and I know sheep urine stinks to high heaven!).

Add to it some of your comments about "worshiping statues" (I have a statue of the Blessed Virgin -- I never said anything about worshiping it), trans- and consubstantiation, your attacks on the Lutheran Book of Worship, Evangelical Lutheran Worship and the Book of Common Prayer and how these aren't really "prayers" because they're supposedly "not from the heart" since they come from a book used for corporate worship; your attacks on those of us who use anything but an absolutely literal interpretation of Scripture -- and frankly, Zaac: your credibility with me is pretty much totally shot, at least as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Zaac]

It is, it just isnt aligning with your personal interpretation of his word.

I haven't asked you about interpretation,neither mine nor yours. Based in what is on the paes of Scripture, show where what you say is aligned with God's Word. That means what you say cannot conflict with anything else in the Word.

Can you do this? I'm not talking about word studies and twists. I mean take one version(i.e ESV) and show what you say to be true.

Can you do it?

 

[UberLutheran]

In accordance with God's Word, Matthew 7:13-14, the path is already narrow. Nothing we do affects that path. It is the one's who want to walk their own path who are attempting to widen a path that can't be widened.

I've been meaning to ask this for some time: since the way is narrow, who (or what denominations) "get in" -- and who are those (or what denominations) "don't get in"?

 

[Zaac]

Well, if you really want to know, Zaac: you've made it MUCH harder for me to hear what Baptist Christians are trying to say, or to even want to listen to what they are trying to say.

Man where have you been? I missed your wit yesterday. You know that I haven't made it harder for you to do anything. You ain't ever wanted to hear what the Baptists say and that hasn't changed since listening to me. But that is STILL your choice of which I have no affect. YOU choose whether or not you want to hear.

I'm not tasked of God to make people want to hear His Word that is truth. The heart that wants truth will avail itself to truth.

The heart that doesn't will make excuses that somebody else made them not do something.

If yall want equal treatment, then take equal responsibility for the choices YOU make.

I don't know where you get some of the claims you make about gay people and sheep urine,

Man you need to stop. You knew when you read that it was a facetious statement in opposition to the equally facetious statement made by Gwyn.

gay people having short life expectancies,

I haven't said anything about gays having short life expectancies. I don't equate gay with committing gay sexual acts so why would I make the aforementioned assumption?

gay people being unable to love their partners, etc. --

I don't have a problem with anyone loving anyone else. I spoke to being IN LOVE if God is LOVE.

because I'm well into my 50s and I know couples who are in their 70s and 80s;

Then after 50 something odd years, you should know better than to be bearing false witness.

and I've been with my partner for 17 years and I know couples who have been together 40, 50 and even over 55 years; and I don't know what straight people do with sheep urine but I tend to avoid it like the plague (I grew up on a farm and I know sheep urine stinks to high heaven!).

It really does stink.

Add to it some of your comments about "worshiping statues" (I have a statue of the Blessed Virgin -- I never said anything about worshiping it),

where have I said you worship a statue?

trans- and consubstantiation, your attacks on the Lutheran Book of Worship, Evangelical Lutheran Worship and the Book of Common Prayer and how these aren't really "prayers" because they're supposedly "not from the heart" since they come from a book used for corporate worship;

Good grief man. I hope you're ascribing this stuff to folks in this forum in general cause I know that I haven't spoken to some of this.

your attacks on those of us who use anything but an absolutely literal interpretation of Scripture -- and frankly, Zaac: your credibility with me is pretty much totally shot, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Attacks? So I guess your responses are to be equally seenas attacks.

And frankly Uber, in giving you God's truth, I'm not looking to establish self-credibility. You either accept what God says or you don't. And as with the things already mentioned, that's a choice YOU make.

If it makes you feel better to make me or someone else responsible for what YOU CHOOSE to do, okay.

 

[Zaac]

I've been meaning to ask this for some time: since the way is narrow, who (or what denominations) "get in" -- and who are those (or what denominations) "don't get in"?

Which denominations leave Jesus Christ as Who He says He is in His inerrant Word? Which denominations have fashioned their own Jesus?

If folks, regardless of their denomination, are receiving false teaching that introduces them to a false Jesus that is not the Jesus of the Bible, then they are not going through the narrow gate.

The narrow PATH is the way that is Christ that a Christian needs to walk or at least acknowledge is the right way even though he sins.

Should answer your question

 

[UberLutheran]

Man where have you been? I missed your wit yesterday. You know that I haven't made it harder for you to do anything. You ain't ever wanted to hear what the Baptists say and that hasn't changed since listening to me. But that is STILL your choice of which I have no affect. YOU choose whether or not you want to hear.

Well, I have some news that is going to have you (and IAmRedeemed, MercyBurst, newguy101, FloatingAxe and david_x) dancing down the halls and out into the streets with joy!

I found out yesterday I'm growing a tumor inside my rectum and I'm scheduled for surgery in two weeks -- in fact, two weeks from this Thursday.

Considering the fact that cancer runs up and down both sides of my family (sorry, Zaac -- not all gay people die from AIDS: we get heart attacks and strokes and cancer just like you "normal" people!) the five of you might want to get together and decide how you'd like to celebrate should the tumor be found to be malignant.

It's not like I would expect you all to "pray" for a homosexual, or anything. After all -- wouldn't that be an endorsement of the "homosexual lifestyle" or treating us like we might even be human?

Don't pray for my partner, either: since we're gay, we can't "love" and therefore he can't possibly be "concerned". Only heterosexuals have those kinds of feelings.

Guess this explains the blood in my stools which has been occurring since before last Christmas.

 

[UberLutheran]

Which denominations leave Jesus Christ as Who He says He is in His inerrant Word? Which denominations have fashioned their own Jesus?

If folks, regardless of their denomination, are receiving false teaching that introduces them to a false Jesus that is not the Jesus of the Bible, then they are not going through the narrow gate.

The narrow PATH is the way that is Christ that a Christian needs to walk or at least acknowledge is the right way even though he sins.

Should answer your question

I'm afraid I'll need specifics, Zaac.

 

[dawnsday]

Again, you have made a judgment to reach that conclusion. Yet you have unrighteously judged for in looking at this forum, if you're going to cast that on the non-Gay people, you might as well say the same about the gay people.

I don't think I'm allowed to quote other threads...but...I am basing my conclusion off of reading things such as "homos" "a gay person is an abomination" "gays are all going to hell" "gays are disgusting", "gays don't deserve equal rights" "god hates gays". I have seen phrases such as this many times over on many different threads here as well as in many other christian communities.

Gay people sin too, I'm not saying they don't, and they need to check themselves as well, but if one of them told me because I am a christian I am unintelligent and a bigot, then I would defend not only myself but my brothers and sisters.

But no matter, non-christian gays don't live by Christian ideals, but as Christians we should.

AIn't nobody been attacked. Ain't nobody been judged any more than you yourself are now making judgments. And no one has shown that they hate someone because they are gay.

that's a load, because yes they have. here and in society they are attacked over and over again.

You're perpetuating a myth.

you actually think this is a myth? it happens all the time.

What does loving you or any other gay person have to do with telling you that in accordance with God's Word, fornicative homosexual acts are just as wrong as fornicative heterosexual acts?

You seriously aren't catching what I'm throwing. I'm not saying that if you feel God convicts you to minister to someone because of their sins you should not, I am speaking ONLY about those who hate and rage against gay people, push them away, and call them names and deem 'they' are evil. It's the difference between a person saying "homosexual sex is an abomination" and "homosexuals are an abomination". It's the difference between saying "God hates sexual immorality" and "God hates Gays". You can share what you know, think you know or believe, without LYING and saying that God hates them or making them feel like God hates them. God loves them and that should be the MAIN message they get.

Does a parent hate a child when he tells the child that he is doing wrong?

there is a difference between a child being told they are stupid for breaking a dish and being told they shouldn't run with the dish.

Who cares what anyone THINKS? That's how yall keep opening the door wide for the devil's confusion.

You say you think it because it is what you think. Because we are fallible human beings and all we can do is say what we think is true, because until we pass, we can't prove it. But if you feel that lessens it, fine, don't, but no one needs to say mean and disrespectful things out of fear and hatred like often happens.

Why do people refuse to align themselves with what GOD SAYS instead of what they think?

Then take this if that is the case: Everytime I hear hatred come from a Christian, I feel pain, I want to cry, it hurts and, to me, it is because God convicts me to speak out against hate and to promote a loving, productive example of Christ and to let those who are tormented know that God DOES love them. Sin or no Sin, He loves them and so do I.

Fringe group. There are very few people in this forum who say that cause we know your sin is no greater than our own.

Not from my experience, but people's experiences are different.

Then righteously judge because if nothing else, this forum has shown that the actions that yall keep ascribing to non gays is the very same actions being used by gays in this forum.

None can righteously judge but God himself. Yes every "group" does this kind of thing in one way or another, but I'm not talking about them I am talking about this situation alone. I can get into lots of examples, but the only concern I have is that the Christian community is seen as it should be. A community of love, forgiveness, and charity. A community who exemplifies Christ. Christ didn't sit with the sinners and say "Hi, I'm the son of God. You suck because you are a theif, you suck because you are a hooker, you suck because..." He SHOWED LOVE AND FORGIVENESS.

So if the nongays are hate-filled and judgmental you've got to righteously judge and say that the gays are also.

Not all nongays are that way, not all gays are that way...many are and many are not, but I am speaking specifically about those people who claim to be Christian and are filled with hatred of someone God created.

NOTHING you do can draw a person to Christ. Christ draws men unto Himself. And if they CHOOSE to reject Him as HE gives them truth to draw them, that rejection is because of THEM and the condition of THEIR heart. No one else.

Then WHY talk to them at all? If you saying something to them can't draw them to Christ, why be a jerk and pick on them? Why not just say "they will or they won't, it's up to them" Why witness? Why preach? Why try at all?

Maybe, just maybe, if I work really hard (though I will never be perfect) at trying to SHOW Christ's love in my actions and words, that will make some Non-Christians think better of Christianity, and get them curious enough to seek some answers. And maybe some of them will come to Christ.

I sure as HECK know that if I treat them like dirt and spend all my time telling them what is wrong with them, I will AT MINIMUM get blown off.

Again, that's a personal choice just like folks on here make a personal choice to deem those who tell them the truth hateful and bigoted.

yes, it is their choice. But at least we can show them the right way. which is LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Not point out their faults until they freak out and bail on us.

PLANK PLANK PLANK.

What's more loving: to give them God's truth that makes men free, or to side with them and give them a lie because you don't want to offend someone?

If they are offended because you are kind to them and answer their questions and share your faith honestly and are straightforward, that is their problem.

If they are offended because a so-called christian uses derogatory terms and spends the whole time attacking them, completely focused on ONE aspect of their life (gay doesn't mean they spend all day and night having gay sex, they have friends, family, do charity, have jobs, etc...), then that is the Christian's fault.

If they are unsaved, I'd much rather offend them than have them go to hell. If they are a Christian, I would much rather offend them than have their false witness be a stumbling block for an unsaved person on the way to hell.

Which leads me back to my original question. Are these angry methods actually doing any good at all? Or would it be better to be kind and set an example. I in no way expect a person to HIDE their beliefs, or not be honest, but that is different then calling names and being an all around judgemental poophead.

I didn't ask you that. I asked if they were pushing people toward God 's love by endorsing sin?

I don't know. Probably so, in some cases, maybe in a lot of cases. But again, it isn't their responsibility, it is ours.

If you feel that Christians, by telling the truth, push folks away from God's love, then shouldn't it stand to reason that gays, by endorsing the committing of fornicative homosexual acts, would be pushing folks toward God's love?

Is that happening?

That is SO not what I said. I did NOT say lie, or not tell the truth, I said if you feel convicted to do it, do it with respect to the person's character and feelings in a kind and loving manner.

 

[dawnsday]

Then stop looking at people's opinions and look at what God SAYS.



The bottom line is that even though Jesus Christ died so that all could be saved, some CHOOSE to not accept His gift.

Your statement above is filled with your opinion.

What does the Word of God say?



And where are you getting this advice? Is God speaking to you? How do you know it's God? Satan speaks too. Are you testing the spirits to see if it is of God? What are you using as your test? God says to use His Word. To use His Word you have to accept what He says as absolute truth.

Do you accept what He says in His Word absolute truth?

If so, why isn't what you're saying aligning with that Word?

How do you know what God says to you isn't Satan?

 

[Jerrell]

I see a million posts about "gays are sinners" blah blah blah. But, here is a question for all of you who are so stuck on picking on the Gay community.

For all your condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates, have any of you, honestly, ever brought a gay person closer to Christ?

For the Gay people, has the condemnation, preaching, judging, "teaching", and debates pushed you further away and solidified your dislike in Christianity?

If so, I think that it would be safe to say that this kind of behavior is doing much more damage then good and should stop immediately, because God is willing that NONE should perish and here are people claiming to be a child of God that are basically pushing others further and further from His love.

I'm not surprised to hear this...I guess the murderers are getting tired of us picking on them, and the sorcerers, and the wizards and pagans, and the adulterers too, and even the thieves and robbers! People need to know that what they are doing is wrong, the fact about homosexuality is that many know it's wrong and willingly deny that it is...some of them want to accept Christ as well as remain homosexual...others will reject Christ to remain a homosexual. If you're going to talk the talk about Christ, then you need to walk the walk about Christ also.

There have been many homosexuals who have converted and come to Christ- and they are no longer homosexual.

 

[dawnsday]

Well, if you really want to know, Zaac: you've made it MUCH harder for me to hear what Baptist Christians are trying to say, or to even want to listen to what they are trying to say.

I don't know where you get some of the claims you make about gay people and sheep urine, gay people having short life expectancies, gay people being unable to love their partners, etc. -- because I'm well into my 50s and I know couples who are in their 70s and 80s; and I've been with my partner for 17 years and I know couples who have been together 40, 50 and even over 55 years; and I don't know what straight people do with sheep urine but I tend to avoid it like the plague (I grew up on a farm and I know sheep urine stinks to high heaven!).

Add to it some of your comments about "worshiping statues" (I have a statue of the Blessed Virgin -- I never said anything about worshiping it), trans- and consubstantiation, your attacks on the Lutheran Book of Worship, Evangelical Lutheran Worship and the Book of Common Prayer and how these aren't really "prayers" because they're supposedly "not from the heart" since they come from a book used for corporate worship; your attacks on those of us who use anything but an absolutely literal interpretation of Scripture -- and frankly, Zaac: your credibility with me is pretty much totally shot, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Have you always been a Christian?