Have the rules of courtship changed over the years?

[Merry Jerry]

Bottom line up front, the girl you spoke to was a feminist with some serious issues. You did nothing wrong. Do not listen to a single word she said. Women need to feel captivating.

What do you mean?

 

[mama2one]

.

 

[Merry Jerry]

All I had to read was "courtship" to tell you that "yes" things have changed.

So to you what do you think has changed? When I was growing up I was taught that you don’t touch people unless you have affirmative consent. Now it seems like there is a push to teach young men to not even approach women with romantic intentions without affirmative consent.

 

[jacks]

Showing an open, honest interest in someone is never out of style. All the other manipulative game playing styles are really more of a problem. And of course it wasn't workplace harassment or an unequal balance of power, you weren't her boss, you were a customer.

 

[Merry Jerry]

I don't think it has anything to do with age
was happy being single and needed to get my work done and couldn't understand why he was trying to talk to me

plus he was not the "type" of guy I was attracted to
but after we went out, I saw he was kind, comsiderate, Christian

we got engaged 2 mos after first date

Oh, that’s not what I meant. My mother played hard to get with my father. She said that in her day a woman just didn’t act too available and it was expected that the guy would need to be a bit persuasive and that no sometimes meant try a little harder. She was very clear though that the context was for dates not sex.

 

[Merry Jerry]

Showing an open, honest interest in someone is never out of style. All the other manipulative game playing styles are really more of a problem. And of course it wasn't workplace harassment or an unequal balance of power, you weren't her boss, you were a customer.

The accusation of the power imbalance was due to the fact that I had a warm car on a cold day.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Of all the things I have ever needed, this is not one. It's an unfortunate stereotype, though, because it views women as inherently manipulative.

My wife told me that in all honesty she loved the fact that she was being chased

This quote confirms my statement. Women want to feel special. Deep down, they want to be desired, to be captivating. When this basic need is not fulfilled, they will try to fill that void elsewhere.

 

[mama2one]

My mother played hard to get with my father.

sounds like my grandmother
her husband came calling 3 times with candy and flowers before she said yes to a date

although husband pursued me, I said yes to marriage after only 2 mos & we married 4 mos later
think when the right person comes along, you know

 

[Paidiske]

And of course it wasn't workplace harassment ... you weren't her boss, you were a customer.

Customers can harass. A workplace should protect its workers from such harassment, but often they don't.

This quote confirms my statement. Women want to feel special. Deep down, they want to be desired, to be captivating. When this basic need is not fulfilled, they will try to fill that void elsewhere.

I want my husband to find me desirable rather than not-desirable, given that we are married. But I don't have a basic need to be "captivating" or "feel special," and if I hadn't married I'd be perfectly content, not having a void that needed filling in that regard.

Again, this sort of statement is really stereotyping of women, and it tends to encourage men to see us as manipulative (using men to meet our own emotional needs). It's demeaning, unhelpful and destructive.

 

[Merry Jerry]

sounds like my grandmother
her husband came calling 3 times with candy and flowers before she said yes to a date

although husband pursued me, I said yes to marriage after 2 mos and we married 4 mos later

so wasn't like grandma

That’s awesome. My wife and I dated for two years with her sister And her boyfriend(the sister’s) then later prodding us along the entire way. Every one in that family just has the biggest hearts and they are some of the nicest, most inclusive and most welcoming people. They all just seem to exude joy. The sister and her husband especially, they are the kindest people but also incredibly fun. They are the kind of people who would do anything for you and really know how to laugh at themselves. When I first started Officially dating my wife my future sister in-law introduced me to her then boyfriend/fiancé as Dr. Love in order coach me on my game. A lot of the stuff he had me doing was completely over the top and my future wife knew this and knew I was doing stuff at his behest but it was a lot of clean fun and more importantly it made both myself and my future wife laugh like no other. That’s how we really bonded, over both of us really learning to laugh at ourselves.

 

[Merry Jerry]

Customers can harass. A workplace should protect its workers from such harassment, but often they don't.



I want my husband to find me desirable rather than not-desirable, given that we are married. But I don't have a basic need to be "captivating" or "feel special," and if I hadn't married I'd be perfectly content, not having a void that needed filling in that regard.

Again, this sort of statement is really stereotyping of women, and it tends to encourage men to see us as manipulative (using men to meet our own emotional needs). It's demeaning, unhelpful and destructive.

I dunno, *politely and gently signaling* [your words] as opposed to verbalizing a desire, sounds pretty manipulative to me.

 

[Paidiske]

I dunno, *politely and gently signaling* [your words] as opposed to verbalizing a desire, sounds pretty manipulative to me.

Most of us have learned that verbalising a desire to be left alone is likely to be met with aggression and hostility. Refusal to engage is often safer, especially when dealing with men we don't know.

My point is this: the idea that women need to be "captivating" is bunk. And it's harmful bunk. So if we can leave that out of discussions of contemporary romantic etiquette, that'd be awesome.

 

[Merry Jerry]

Most of us have learned that verbalising a desire to be left alone is likely to be met with aggression and hostility. Refusal to engage is often safer, especially when dealing with men we don't know.

My point is this: the idea that women need to be "captivating" is bunk. And it's harmful bunk. So if we can leave that out of discussions of contemporary romantic etiquette, that'd be awesome.

Sounds a lot like prejudice... I wonder how well this would go over if you replaced the word “men” with the word “minority”

 

[Paidiske]

Sounds a lot like prejudice...

It's reality. Women live with a level of constant threat. Considerate men will take that into account when wanting to court someone.

 

[cappycappy]

I've heard a lot worse from people. I met my husband online and I have to watch people cringe and talk about how "creepy" and "weird" it is to meet people on the internet.

 

[NerdGirl]

My wife and I are 24 and 25 respectively. We have been happily married for 3 years and dated 2 years prior to getting married. She was 19 and I was 20 when we first met. To us and our families the story of how we met has always been considered cute and funny. If it matters we are both from Christian nuclear families and both sets of our parents are alive and still together. Now however, when we tell our story to people both our age and younger there are definitely some people who don’t awww, but criticize it as “problematic”.
Any ways my wife and I met at the small restaurant she was waitress at while we were both in college. When I first saw her I was head over heals. She was and still is the most gorgeous girl I had ever seen she is tall, long haired, adorably cute face. She looked like an anime character come to life; and when she first spoke to me my heart almost skipped a beat. Her voice was just so angelic and she did this thing where she would stutter and giggle. I fell for her hard. After that I kept coming in just to see her. We weren’t friends at this time or anything, I was kind of awkward and I could never seem to work up the courage to really talk to her about anything asides my order so that’s how it went for a couple weeks. I just kept making excuses for myself (it’s too busy right now, she doesn’t have time to chat, etc) on why I couldn’t do anything other than give her my order. Then one day I went to the restaurant at dinner rather than lunch and saw her getting off her shift. So I watched her put on her coat, grab her stuff and walk out and across the street to a bus stop and sit there and wait for her bus. I don’t know what I was thinking at the time but I thought it would be a good idea to catch her after work and offer her a ride or something like that.
I came a few more evenings and tried even to time myself to leave at about the same time as her. One day I got my timing just right and I guess I had just enough courage to approach her as she was walking out the door. When I said hi, I startled her a bit but she was super friendly. I tried my best to make conversation but I was super nervous. I didn’t have (still don’t) have a ton of game back then so I know I was not exactly sweeping her off her feet. She remained polite but I could tell by her body language I was striking out. We kind of chatted as we walked to her bus stop and as we were crossing the street I finally blurted out that I have a car and I can give her a ride. She very politely but firmly declined and kind of tried to end the conversation and pulled her cellphone out of her pocket and started texting as she was walking away. I felt crushed so I just walked back to my car and drove away.
I guess the love struck mind of a lonely guy works in funny ways because I still kept going to the restaurant hoping to just see her and maybe try again to strike up a conversation. So over the next few weeks I did that, and she acted totally normal when she waited on me. I tried doing stuff like tipping a bit more and trying to Be a bit more talkative but always it was the same with her. Polite, cheery but distant. A couple times I worked up the courage to ask her out for coffee but each time she declined. Then one day it was snowing and apparently somebody stole her Canada Goose parka some time during the day. I saw her argue with the manager and then storm out with no coat. I guess I had the courage that day so I thought this was my best chance. I left money on the table and ran out after her. I jumped into my car and intercepted her as she got to the bus stop. When I pulled up she was holding her shoulders and shivering. I jumped out, took off my coat and draped it around her. She was very surprised but also very very cold so her first words were just “thank you”. I could see that even with my coat on she was so cold that her knees were knocking so I kind of just guided her to the passenger door opened it for her and she got in without a word. When I got back into the driver side she had already turned the heat in my car onto full blast and was warming her hands on the vent. I told her she could either sit in my car until the bus arrived or I can take her anywhere she wanted to go. She opted for wait in the car until the bus arrived. At this time her bus was on about a 45 minute rotation. For the first few minutes we both kind of sat in silence looking straight ahead. I broke the ice by asking her why she would leave her house without a jacket that day. That’s when she told me that some one stole her expensive parka and the restaurant manager was absolutely no help. We continued to chat a bit until we saw the lights of the bus in the rear view. She said “well, guess that’s me. Thank you so much for warming me up, come back tomorrow and I will comp your meal”. I normally am not that quick on my feet with women so what I said next surprised even me. I told her to keep my coat on so she doesn’t freeze when she gets off the bus and she can give it back when I come for my free meal. She did her adorable giggle, thanked me again and asked if there was anything she could do to thank me. I blurted out that it would love to get her number and maybe go out for some coffee some time. She hurriedly scribbled down her number, said sure and jumped out of the car and into her bus.
The next day when I went back to the restaurant she wasn’t there. I asked another waitress about her and she went to the back, came back with my coat and said that anything I want was on the house. I asked again about my future wife and the other waitress said that she had switched to mornings. Later that night I texted her to thank her for returning my coat and the free meal but I got no response. I went to the restaurant a couple times after that and at different but I didn’t see her. I texted her a few times and asked about the coffee but no response. I tried calling a few times but each time went to voice mail.
About 2 weeks after that night I tried calling one more time and this time some one picked up. I at first thought it was her. This woman had the same bubbly voice giggle and everything. It turned out however this was her older sister, my future sister in law. When I first thought it was her I reminded her that she had agreed to a date. The woman on the other line was like “who exactly is this?” So I reminded her about the evening at the bus stop. Then she said “oooooohhhhhhh I know who you are, hold on a sec, this is her older sister by the way.....” she put the phone down and I could hear this other woman yell something but I couldn’t make out what. I sat on the phone a few minutes and the sister came back on the line. She said to me “yeah.... my little sister is a bit of a spaz... but she will love to go out with you, come to this address at 3pm tomorrow and she will be ready”. Before I could say anything else she hung up. That was followed by a text with an address and a note saying “don’t be late”.
Maybe I should have been a bit more cautious but I was young, dumb and in love so I was counting down the minutes.
I pulled up to the address a little early and waited, I had brought candy, flowers, and a teddy bear. Right at 3, the door opened and this woman who looked almost identical to my future wife came out leading my future wife by the hand. She opened the passenger door and pretty much stuffed my future wife in and then she herself jumped into the back seat. ( I would come to find out later that the older sister has a huge heart but she also likes to meddle in the romantic lives of her siblings). My future wife didn’t say anything, the sister however went into a full introduction. She introduced her self and said “Hi, I am ...., .....’s older sister. I understand that my little sister had agreed to a date yet she has reneged on that commitment. I am here to ensure that .... fulfills that commitment. You are going to take her to Starbucks to get coffees, then you are taking her bowling, followed by burgers and then return here and walk her to the door where you will give her an awkward peck on her cheek”. She says all this in a half serious half playful voice. I would find out later that the older sister is a contract law attorney.
No joke the three of us go out and do all these things (of course the older sister makes me pay for her too). The whole time the older sister prodded her to talk and make conversation. So we did really get to know each other and did find that we shared a lot of common interests (anime, K pop, animal crossing, coding, etc). At the end of the night, just like the older sister instructed, I walked my future wife to the door and gave her a peck on the cheek. Later that night my future wife texted me apologizing for her older sister’s aggressiveness and I texted her back apologizing for putting her on the spot. From there we started texting each other, then that turned into phone calls and then we started going on dates. Some chaperoned by her older sister (not complaining though because that girl was a blast and knew how to have fun) and some solo. Two years after that we got married with her sister as the matron of honor and her husband as my best man (this is a funny story in and of itself — my actual brother is still a bit sore about this but my sister in law’s husband is a great guy but just as aggressive as she is).
Anyways, the last time we told this story was to some friends of my wife’s younger brother. They are late teens (18,19). One of the girls in that group said that this isn’t a cute funny story but that it was a horrible case of harassment and an abuse of a power imbalance. She said that it is never appropriate to solicit a woman for a date at her place of work when you are a customer because of “unwritten social expectations”. And she continued with that it was inappropriate to keep trying after the first rejection. Mind you my wife says constantly that she is happy I kept trying and never let up. My wife told me that in all honesty she loved the fact that she was being chased since she was particularly shy and soft spoken since she was always in the shadow of her outgoing and gregarious older sister. This girl claimed that the worst part is I asked for my wife’s phone number when she was warming herself in my car. She said that this was a flagrant abuse of a power imbalance where my wife was probably thinking it was either agree to a date or freeze to death. Of course this didn’t sit well with my wife, since this story is a cherished moment of her life as much as it is mine so she gave that girl a piece of her mind. Then that girl made the claim that women like my wife are who is propping up patriarchy. Neither of us are particularly confrontational so we disengaged.
In any case has the rules and nature of courtship really changed so much? My sister in law’s husband has this out there conspiracy theory concerning the masters of the internet wanting to force all aspects of our lives to be electronic and I am kind of thinking it’s not as wacky as it once seemed.

Your story is PRECIOUS and sweet and adorable! This younger woman who was fussing at you will probably never get married herself, or wind up divorced half a dozen times. No, the rules of courtship never really change. We just like to pretend that they do. Mankind is still mankind, and what works still works.

I will say that a pushy or persistent guy would not work with me; that sort of behavior turns me off. But your wife is not me, and if she is happy and in love with you, then that's all that matters.

 

[tall73]

So to you what do you think has changed? When I was growing up I was taught that you don’t touch people unless you have affirmative consent. Now it seems like there is a push to teach young men to not even approach women with romantic intentions without affirmative consent.

I think surveys and such still indicate that men tend to make the first move. Whether this is cultural, tied to higher risk taking due to more testosterone, etc. is up for discussion.

Despite some workplaces enacting stricter regulations workplace romances have continued going strong. This is one survey result, some time after #metoo increased awareness of harassment and the surrounding issues. There does seem to be a higher percentage of older workers who engage in such, though that may also reflect more years of opportunity, since it is discussing historical trends.

A couple of highlights:

These 6 Surprising Office Romance Stats Should Be A Wake-Up Call For Organizations

According to the survey, produced by job site Vault.com, 58% of employees have engaged in a romantic relationship with a colleague. A surprising 72% of those over 50 years old have been romantically involved with a coworker.

A whopping 18% of employees reported having a random hookup with a coworker.

Almost three in four (72%) would participate in an office romance again if given the chance.

 

[NerdGirl]

I absolutely want to feel captivating to the man I love. I think that's common to most women. Of course there can be exceptions, but I don't believe it's rare or harmful or anything like that at all. i think it's a universal female trait.

Perhaps people are using this word in different contexts. What woman doesn't want her man to look at her with starry eyes and a captivated expression, and know that he sees no other woman in the world but her? I sure as heck do. That's not manipulative or harmful, it's beautiful and natural and part of the dynamic of love and attraction between men and women.

I feel like there's a lot of miscommunication or misunderstanding around this very simple concept.

 

[Paidiske]

Perhaps people are using this word in different contexts. What woman doesn't want her man to look at her with starry eyes and a captivated expression, and know that he sees no other woman in the world but her? I sure as heck do. That's not manipulative or harmful, it's beautiful and natural and part of the dynamic of love and attraction between men and women.

That sounds, at best, like infatuation, not love. Not the kind of love that puts in the hard yards over decades of marriage.

More to the point, what someone wants within their marriage is different from a blanket statement that "women need to feel captivating." As if, without having that kind of infatuated male attention, we're going to feel incomplete or unfulfilled. Even as if meaningful single life isn't possible!

It's just not true, and the implications are ugly.

 

[NerdGirl]

That sounds, at best, like infatuation, not love. Not the kind of love that puts in the hard yards over decades of marriage.

More to the point, what someone wants within their marriage is different from a blanket statement that "women need to feel captivating." As if, without having that kind of infatuated male attention, we're going to feel incomplete or unfulfilled. Even as if meaningful single life isn't possible!

It's just not true, and the implications are ugly.

I wasn't referring to infatuation at all. I think it's sad to imply that a woman who's been married for thirty years can't still wish to be captivating to her husband, or that he wouldn't be captivated by her.

Perhaps some women *would* feel unfulfilled if they didn't feel captivating to their husband. Perhaps they simply think differently than you do.

"Meaningful single life" is a completely different existence than being married. Of course the dynamics and purpose and goals are going to be different than if you were married. Who would you even be wanting to captivate as a single woman without a significant other? That doesn't detract from the truth that a married woman has a different mindset than a single woman, and that she wishes her husband to find her enchanting, mesmerizing, appealing, attention-grabbing.

There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing "ugly" about it. You may simply operate in a different way within your own life and relationship, and that's fine.