Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

Timtofly

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Derf said:
Before I go to such extent, can you show me it will be worthwhile by elaborating only on the locusts,
and especially why they have hair like women?





The Locusts of Rev 9 represent the Saints of the Great Tribulation

(1) They appear AFTER Satan is loosened to RULE during his "Little Season" of Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast

(2) They are represented as BELEIVERS
(a) horses prepared for battle
(b) Crowns of gold on their heads
(c) Faces of men
(d) Hair of women
(e) Teeth like Lions
(f) Breastplates of Iron

AND they are RULED by the "king" who is the "angel of the Bottomless Pit".
It could not be MORE obvious WHO the Locusts represent... you just need to read the text.


/
Why would Satan have an army of Christians serving him?

These are the angels loosed out of the pit in chains of darkness per Jude 1:6.

I know how they are described. That does not change who they are.

They are not literal locust, but angels that swarm the earth like locust. In fact they finally reach heaven by the 7th Trumpet, because they have to be cast out of heaven.

This is not Satan's little season. Satan's short time is the 42 months after these angels are cast out heaven.

These locust/angels are on earth for the 6th Trumpet and all 7 Thunders. At least 5 months prior to the 7th Trumpet sounding.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Why would Satan have an army of Christians serving him?

Correction: Army of Counterfield Christians masquerading as true believers, 2nd Corinthians 11:13-15. In other words, the false prophets and christs with all professed Christians.


These are the angels loosed out of the pit in chains of darkness per Jude 1:6.

Not literal angels. They are messengers with the spirit of antichrist. Human messengers - the false prophets and christs.
They are not literal locust

Good.

, but angels that swarm the earth like locust.

Angels? No, they are not literally angels. God symbolized the locusts with men with the spirit of the antichrist destroying the gospel just like the literal locusts eating the crops AS AN EXAMPLE. It does not means that there wil be literal locusts, or angels, or whatever but MEN with spirit of the antichrist. Their power is like the scorpions.

This is not Satan's little season. Satan's short time is the 42 months after these angels are cast out heaven.

Ahem...


These locust/angels are on earth for the 6th Trumpet and all 7 Thunders.

Do you even know what are the seven thunders?


At least 5 months prior to the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Do you realize that 5 months has spiritual significaiton? Not literal 5 months.
 
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Timtofly

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I guess that's the Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins view. But the description has the flavor of prophetic language, which would suggest there is meaning in those elements.
That is from Scripture, Jude 1:6.

I have no clue how Tim LaHaye nor Jerry Jenkins see things.

The book of Revelation is written in a symbolic narrative. You have to use Scripture to figure out the symbolism.

For all we know though, that may be how they literally look, as deception is in the way they portray themselves. An angels "day job" is to serve as the stars. Certainly they don’t look like balls of gas.
 
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Lost Witness

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First, the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are NOT literally two men, two olive trees, or two covenants as most believe. They represent God's Holy people, the eternal indivisible Church who is faithful and elect. It is through "THIS" Church that God will show forth His judgment and prophecy. Per Revelation 11:4, God gave power to these two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days in mourning. This is a symbolic picture of the indivisible Church as it has been given the power to testify for this length of time. Moreover, so that there is no confusion about these being literally two men, God also enlightens us that these are the two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And that word standing is again the Greek word [histemi] illustrating they are able to stand with God by the support of Christ. They 'stand' before God and give assent to His will, His Word, and His purpose, because they are made righteous in Christ. We have our consistent and Biblical understanding of this imagery. These witnesses are a representation of God's Church, and specifically in this context, God's 'true Church' not the external covenant Church. They are those who are 'standing before the God of the earth,' importing that they were strengthened in Christ, faithful messengers who adhere to His cause and testimonies.


Second, the Great City is not physical Jerusalem but is a representation of the Church, which is the city of the great king. It is not the indivisible city itself, but the external Covenant Church is the earthly representation of the city of peace. This is the church where the true church (Two Witnesses) of God dwelled, and prophesied, Matthew 5:35, Galatians 4:26, Revelation 21:10. All believers are residents of "that great city" Jerusalem, and the external covenant church is the earthly representation of that Holy City. That is why you need to read Revelation 11:1-2 to find out why the court which is without the temple represents the external covenant church made up of professed Christians who will be handed over to Satan to be deceived when God judges her. This court is why the city has become SPIRITUALLY Sodom and Egypt.

The Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is why Jerusalem is used as a sign, figure or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers being dead or lifeless in the streets [plateia] or wide space of this great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan is ruling there, and the leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritually' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in the bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.

And God makes sure that we understand its relationship to this end-time event as He informs us that where the body of Christ (two Witnesses) is killed, is where our Lord was Crucified (Revelation 11:8). This is because the Church is intimately identified with the body of Christ as He is the Temple of God in which we live and breathe and have our being. We indeed are the Body of Christ. When they kill the two witnesses, they have in effect crucified Christ afresh. For inasmuch as they do it to Christ's Church, they do it unto Christ.

The overview of Revelation 11:8 is that God is illustrating that when the true witness of the Church is destroyed, the true believers who abide by God's law cannot by the Spirit of God teach the truth in the Church anymore. The spirit of Christ and that of satan cannot dwell together. The language of their dead bodies lying in the street where our Lord was Crucified, which is spiritual as Sodom and Egypt, is signifying Jerusalem. Sodom and Egypt illustrate that the city or Church has become abominable and lawless, and a house of bondage and persecution. It is full of abomination which shall leave this house desolate. It is no coincidence that God spoke of Old Testament Jerusalem (after they Killed Christ) as a house of bondage and as a city left desolate. And He gives the very same scenario of them having come against the Lord's servants and Christ.

Matthew 23:37-38
  • "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
  • Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."
Galatians 4:25
  • "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children."
As the fall of the Old Testament external congregation (symbolized by Jerusalem) was, so is the fall of this New Testament external congregation. It is a city that is in spiritual bondage like Egypt, and which has abomination stand in it as Sodom. It is a city that has the blood of the body of Christ, the servants of God, on their hands. This is just as Old Testament Jerusalem did! This verse is picturing the external covenant city of God where the body of Christ lies silenced and unloved. These are parallels inspired by God.

Therefore, Revelation 11 has nothing to do with 70AD or futurist physical Jerusalem where some people believe there will be two men with superpowers that literally spew fires on people. Please...leave this to the imagination of Hollywood. :)
explain how the entire body of Christ Breathes Fire?
Please Put this into perspective for me
 
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TribulationSigns

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explain how the entire body of Christ Breathes Fire?
Please Put this into perspective for me

I just explained it. Fire signifies the word of God that comes out of our mouth.
 
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5thKingdom

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This tells us that the 2 witnesses, after they die, will lie in the street of the great city. The great city is spiritually likened to Sodom and Egypt, and is further described as "where our Lord was crucified." As far as I know, only Jerusalem can fit that last phrase, because Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.

So, can you tell me where you think I'm wrong in any of that?



Where you are wrong is the great city is SPIRITUAL LANGUAGE

(and you understand that) Likewise the word "killed" is also SPIRITUAL LANGUAGE.

Now... HOW do we know that?

We know by HARMONY of ALL RELATED passages

The Bible is clear these "killed" Saints LIVE through the Great Tribulation

they are RULED by the Anti-Christ during the Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation

(I hope you already KNOW these are the same event with the same people... do you understand that reality?)

There are PLENTY of verses showing the Revelation Saints are NOT LITERALLY "killed"

But you must do some serious Bible Study to find "harmony of Scripture"


If you seriously think the TRUTH can be found in ONE VERSE then you are seriously mistaken
You must harmonize ALL RELATED passages before you can pretend to have found Biblical Truth



/
 
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5thKingdom

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I just explained it. Fire signifies the word of God that comes out of our mouth.


Erik,

This is SUCH a BASIC understanding it's amazing it is not understood by EVERY "Bible Student"
But there seem to be few (if any) Bible Students on this forum.

Therefore, you have to REPEAT the obvious over-and-over-and-over again.
It's just sad.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Why would Satan have an army of Christians serving him?


LOL...
the NATURE of the Great Tribulation is Satan and his Anti-Christ RULE over the Last Saints.
In fact, we are told they "give their Kingdom to the Beast"
Is this "news" to you?


The NATURE of the Great Tribulation is NOT a mystery.
The Saints have clearly understood this for a very long time...
how could it be "news" to you?


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast,
until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


/
 
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5thKingdom

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Correction: Army of Counterfield Christians masquerading as true believers, 2nd Corinthians 11:13-15. In other words, the false prophets and christs with all professed Christians.


Correction
Erik, I will give you the long version.
The PEOPLE in the Great Tribulation are shown as


(1) the Ten "Horns/Kings" of Daniel
(2) the Ten "Horns/Kings" of Revelation
(3) the Ten "Kings/Toes" of Dan 2:44
(4) the Ten "Virgins" of Matthew 25


We know absolutely these are the SAME PEOPLE
because, in EACH CASE they are the people living on earth when the Lord Returns.


They represent the LAST "wheat and tares" that were harvested OUT
of the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"... BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
and INTO the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"... AFTER the Last Saint is saved


Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


There you have it... the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast COULD NOT BEGIN until the Last Saint has been saved
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that reality


That "harvest" of the LAST "wheat and tares" is shown in Mat 25...
notice the Ten "Virgins" (like the Ten "Horns/Kings") consists of BOTH
saved "wheat" (called "wise virgins") and unsaved "tares" (called "foolish virgins")


The "Sanctuary" and the "Host" of Daniel's AOD [Dan 8:13-14]
represent the "wheat" and the "tares" in the Great Tribulation...
more on the AOD later.


Here is the "harvest" of the LAST "wheat and tares"
OUT of the Christian Kingdom and INTO the Great Tribulation Kingdom
as BOTH follow the Anti-Christ.


Mat 25:1-2
THEN shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from the 3rd Kingdom, into the 4th Kingdom]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat], and five were foolish [unsaved tares].



The "THEN" in Matthew 25:1 is NOT the start of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom – or (3rd) Christian Kingdom
(at Pentecost). Instead, it's the start of Daniel's Fourth (Great Tribulation) "Kingdom of Heaven".
It's the start of Satan’s “Little Season”. It’s the rising of the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
It begins the reign of the Anti-Christ for 3.5 “times/days/years/watches of the night”.


The “THEN” in Matthew 25:1 is when all of the Last Saints “went forth” with the Beast.
Before we can understand when, in history, the “THEN” occurs… we must first be able to discern
where the Last Saints “went forth” from (3rd Kingdom), and where they “went forth” into (4th Kingdom).
We must be able to discern the context of the passage, as it relates to Daniel’s Fourth Kingdom of Heaven”.


So... HERE is the chronology of the Fourth Beast


(1) When the Christian Kingdom is over, when the Great Commission is complete and the Last Saint is saved,
THEN Satan is loosened from the Pit to RULE over both the "Sanctuary and the host" [Dan 8]
THAT is Daniel's AOD... the Saints (voluntarily) being RULED by the Anti-Christ...
slso shown as the "Man of Sin" sitting (ruling) the Temple.


The BEST place in Scripture to see the AOD is Rev 17
BTW... I covered this in the thread entitled "What is the Abomination?"


Rev 17:12-13
And the TEN HORNS which thou sawest are TEN KINGS, which have received no kingdom as yet [when John wrote];
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast,
until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


(2) There is a REASON why the Revelation Beast consists of"
TWO "Beasts" and TWO "Woes" and TWO "Trumpets" and TWO "heads/kings"


During the FIRST BEAST (the 1st Woe, the 5th Trumpet, the 7th "head/king")
BOTH the "wheat and tares" (the Ten "Horns/Kings/Virgins") follow the Anti-Christ.
Remember, it's these Ten "Horns/Kings/Virgins" that PLACE and SET-UP the Abomination.


At the END of the FIRST BEAST the Last Saints "shall see" the Abomination
and they "flee" to the mountains of God


Mat 24:15-16
When ye [Last Saints] therefore SHALL SEE the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand [Rule] in the holy place [the Sanctuary], (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Then let them which be in Judaea [the Last Saints] flee into the mountains:


(3) During the SECOND BEAST (2nd Woe, 6th Trumpet, 8th "head/king")
The Last Saints abandon the Anti-Christ and they return to God alone.


However, the "tares" in the Kingdom continue to follow the Anti-Christ
until he is destroyed [Rev 19:20]


Mat 25:10-11
And while they [the foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom came [Jesus Returned];
and they that were ready [the wise virgins] went in with him to the MARRIAGE: and the DOOR WAS SHUT.
Afterward
[after the Door was Shut] came also the other [foolish] virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


So, that is a brief overview of the chronology of the Great Tribulation Kingdom.
BOTH the (last) "wheat and tares" (the Sanctuary and Host) were RULED by the Anti-Christ during the FIRST Beast
but ONLY the "tares" were RULED during the SECOND Beast... as the "Sanctuary shall be cleansed"


Dan 8:13-14
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? [what is the DURATION of the AOD?]
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; [ruling both the Sanctuary and Host]
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. [as the Last Saints "shall see" the AOD and they "flee" to God alone]



Jim
 
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ViaCrucis

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I remember over 20 years ago reading the Left Behind series up until the Locusts of Rev 9 were discussed, and that's where I lost interest. I applaud LaHaye and Jenkins for holding to as strict a literal interpretation as possible, but for some reason it was too much in that instance.

Now I'm wondering if we've seen at least the beginning of the 1st Woe. I'll explain.

[Rev 9:1 KJV] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Stars aren't "hims". This star must be a non-literal reference. This sets the stage for the rest of the passage to be non-literal.

[Rev 9:2 KJV] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Smoke is often associated with judgment, probably because it affects more than the subjects of judgment. At the least it stings everyone's eyes where it reaches, and it reaches far into the air, vertically and horizontally.

[Rev 9:3 KJV] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

We immediately see that these are not normal locusts, but have to be compared with the power of scorpions. Imagine if it were described the other way, and scorpions were given wings and made to swarm as locusts. Ouch!

[Rev 9:4 KJV] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The locusts don't even eat like normal locusts, but are only after the unbelievers. This is probably the hardest thing for my suggestion to fit.

[Rev 9:5 KJV] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Why 5 months?
And what is the torment of a scorpion like?
Here's a description from emedicinehealth.com:
Severe signs and symptoms of a sting from a scorpion include numbness throughout the body, difficulty swallowing, a thick tongue, blurred vision, roving eye movements, seizures, salivation, and difficulty breathing.

[Rev 9:6 KJV] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Does this mean they can't even kill themselves? Or does it somehow allude to a condition where they are kept alive medically? Or something else?

[Rev 9:7 KJV] And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.

Here's where I think it might apply to today. "Horses prepared into battle" seem to associate with military might and speed. "Crowns" suggest governmental authority. "Faces of men" may go with the next verse's "hair of women" to indicate something akin to the transgender movement, which is being pushed strongly in our military.

[Rev 9:8 KJV] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

If the main point of these locusts is to wield the power of scorpions, why do they need "teeth of lions"? Because it indicates the authority of rulers.

[Rev 9:9 KJV] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

"Breastplates of iron" mean they have been made impervious to attack, even possibly political or spiritual attack, while the sound of the wings like chariots and horses running to battle reiterates the speed and power of military action and enforcement.

[Rev 9:10 KJV] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
[Rev 9:11 KJV] And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

The main thing these creatures try to accomplish is the name of their leader, "destruction".

So here's my theory--the last few years are the time period spoken of. The stings are the covid vaccine, which is said to give immunity, but only for a short time before needing a booster (about 5 months, perhaps). Our military is one of the driving forced of the vaccine, along with the government. The same military and government has been pushing the transgender garbage, whose poster boy is "Rachel" Levine (man's face, woman's hair).

View attachment 326385
The same government was of no use against the Antifa and BLM riots, but allowed them to perpetrate their destruction.

The scorpion sting symptoms are reminiscent of either Covid or the vaccine (myocarditis, blood clots, strokes, and general loss of immunity to many diseases). Mostly people aren't dying from the vaccine, though some are, and the supposed purpose is to keep people from dying. Many who are refusing to take the vaccine are believers (which may account for the text that says the believers are sealed against the locusts).

What do you think?

This isn't going to be the kind of answer you want, but here are my honest thoughts: You are spending too much time ingesting conservative American media and allowing some very peculiar views shape your interpretation of Scripture, rather than Scripture shaping how you engage with the world at large.

Turn off the noise, get your nose in the Scriptures, and listen to the preached word of God. Believe the Gospel and love your neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Timtofly

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Angels? No, they are not literally angels. God symbolized the locusts with men with the spirit of the antichrist destroying the gospel just like the literal locusts eating the crops AS AN EXAMPLE. It does not means that there wil be literal locusts, or angels, or whatever but MEN with spirit of the antichrist. Their power is like the scorpions.
So none of the angels left their first estate and followed Satan. They were messengers God gave to Satan as counterfeit sons of God?

There are literally no stars in the firmament? That is an optical illusion. They literally don't exist. I guess it will be easy to melt all those non existing elements you all call stars. Because in your minds, they never existed in the first place. They are digital messengers portraying the illusion of stars.

God put some of the sons of God created on the 6th Day to work as counterfeit stars to work for Satan, then placed them in chains of darkness, in the pit (on super computers) to allow the illusion of stars. At the 5th Trumpet these sons of God bound in the pit will come out looking like male horses with long hair. They probably had no barbers in the pit. That is why they have long hair, after 6,000 years of projecting stars in the night sky.
 
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Derf

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One of the passages that needs to be harmonized is the one you're trying to interpret. And so far, you haven't presented any evidence they contradicts the meaning of "dead" or the meaning of "where our Lord was crucified", not to mention "lie in the street". I'm not saying there isn't a different meaning than the more straightforward one, but I have yet to see anything in what you've written to supper it, except your false appeal to yourself as an authority.
 
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Timtofly

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LOL...
the NATURE of the Great Tribulation is Satan and his Anti-Christ RULE over the Last Saints.
In fact, we are told they "give their Kingdom to the Beast"
Is this "news" to you?


The NATURE of the Great Tribulation is NOT a mystery.
The Saints have clearly understood this for a very long time...
how could it be "news" to you?


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast,
until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


/
Your interpretation does not mean they are Christians. You just call them Christians to satisfy some made up opinion.

You could call them "rats", but to you they would still be redeemed, born from above humans, restored to being sons of God, in Satan's service.
 
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DavidPT

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Not literal angels. They are messengers with the spirit of antichrist. Human messengers - the false prophets and christs.


Angels? No, they are not literally angels. God symbolized the locusts with men with the spirit of the antichrist destroying the gospel just like the literal locusts eating the crops AS AN EXAMPLE. It does not means that there wil be literal locusts, or angels, or whatever but MEN with spirit of the antichrist. Their power is like the scorpions.



Ahem...




Do you even know what are the seven thunders?




Do you realize that 5 months has spiritual significaiton? Not literal 5 months.


Obviously, the men that have not the seal of God in their foreheads, the ones the locusts torment for 5 months, if anyone has the spirit of antichrist it would be these that don't have the seal of God in their forehead. Which then would equal men with the spirit of antichrist tormenting men with the spirit of antichrist. Which of course doesn't make sense since the text indicates they torment the men which have not the seal of God in their forehead, which logically means that if these locusts represent men with the spirit of antichrist, they obviously don't have the seal of God in their forehead, therefore, they should be tormenting themselves as well. The way to make this nonsensical interpretation of yours go away, the locusts are not meaning humans to begin with. Now it doesn't matter about having or not having the seal of God in one's forehead, since that would only be relevant to humans, not demons or whatever else these locusts might be meaning.
 
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so 'Scripture' literally kills people during the Great Tribulation?

Are you trying to mock God's Word? Please READ the Scripture and ask yourself a question:

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Did God make His servants' mouths on fire literally? And they spew fire on people and destroy them literally? Can you find an actual incident recorded in Bible? Of course, it did not occur the way you think if you have a carnal mind.

The fire the servants is OF THE LORD, something you do not seem to understand. See, it is God's Word in their mouths "as fire" that burns the people as if they were wood and they knew it not! Because they were under a strong delusion. That is God's judgment upon them through the mouths of His servants. Selah! As it is written:

Isa 42:25
(25) Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

I will give you an example of what is happening right now.

We should settle it in our hearts so that we speak the word of God in our mouths. Then (and only then) are we speaking with wisdom and truth. And when we do that, man cannot 'honorably' speak against it without speaking against God. For example, when you quote God word to word, someone may be able to say you're a false teacher, and he may say you have no love, and he may say you have read into it something else, but he cannot 'credibly' say that this is not what God has said without losing credibility.

This is a dilemma for false Christians, and so they usually take alternative paths and tactics. This is where the hatred and reviling and persecution come in. They will despise you for your truth, and distract from the words of God, ignore it altogether, change the subject with personal attacks, attempt to distort what God said by the dubious use of Hebrew or Greek, or use any number of other tactics to avoid 'receiving' the love of truth. Because they cannot gainsay nor resist what you quote word for word, lest they be seen as denying Christ. This is now they are being burnt by God! Get it?!?

Now, for example, if I say that God said that the wage of sin is death, no one can gainsay or speak against that (deny it), because it is 'directly' and word for word from the mouth of God, and not a "phrase" that I have coined or philosophy I have thought up myself. So if they want to argue this, they will have to 'deceitfully' use some of those other tactics. This is what Luke is speaking about.

Luk 21:15
(15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

They cannot speak against the truth. Testify to God's word, and it is a testimony against them as fire.

This prophecy in Luke (like all other prophecies) relates to all Christians at all times, but in the great tribulation period, it is particularly pertinent because it is the difference between those who endure and those who fall. When iniquity increases, the love grows cold and evil rules the world. We are to stand on the solid Rock of the "authority" of the word of God. It is the truth that no professed Christian can 'rationally' deny.

This warning was authoritative and applicable when it was written, and it is authoritative and applicable now, even though it's addressing the latter days and the end. It is similar to God saying the anti-christ was already working in the world when Paul was writing in 2nd Thessalonians 2, and yet was bound or restrained. In other words, Satan's power would be loosed sometime in the future, but his spirit was already still working in the world then. Likewise, this tribulation is normative (John 16:33) for believers since Pentecost, but at this time near the second advent, it will be greater in the sense that there will be much more of it. It is the 'lot' of every true Christian to be despised and accused of falsehood. Christ says woe unto you when all men speak well of you. Because that is a "sign" that you are not being faithful. So then what makes us different from any false gospel or teacher (which we know are accused of falsehood also) you may ask?

The difference is that every (bar none) false gospel ignores the scriptures, or takes them out of context, or reads something into them, or wrests/twists it in order to hold onto their false teachings or traditions. The true gospel, by contrast, is founded upon an ancient landmarks which is the Word of God. Without this defensible foundation settled in our hearts, we will end up with private interpretations and man-made gospels just as others.

When the accusers charge "real" Christians with falsehood, real Christians don't witness of historical archaeology, secular teachers, authors and nations, they witness to the testimony of scripture which says (not implies, not assumes, not privately interpreted to 'mean') what they have testified it does. It's called "the testimony of Christ" that we have.

They may persecute you, they may revile you, they may call you false teacher, but they cannot speak-against, nor resist.

And also that word translated "Resist" is a similar Greek word (anthistemi). From the words (anti) meaning against and (histemi) meaning to hold up or to stand. It is used in the sense of establishing. They will not be able to establish themselves against you, they will not be able to stand up against you because you quote God, and their false claims of being of God prevent them from calling His Word a lie. Of course, they still in heart deny it by 'spiritual osmosis,' but they can't speak out against it and call themselves Christian.

When Christ ascended to heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit of truth with Power for every one of us, that the false Christs and false accusers cannot speak against nor stand against. They may physically burn us at the stake, they may physically stone us to death, they may physically nail us to a tree, but they cannot stand against the word of God testified accurately.

The accusers are legion, and we should not answer their queries with vain philosophizing, humanistic reasonings, or the imaginations of our eyes, but with a mouth which the Lord has given us, and with wisdom which the Lord has bestowed upon us, and with a Word which is a two-edged sword, which no man can gainsay nor resist.

May the Lord who is gracious above us give us wisdom to discern truth.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Obviously, the men that have not the seal of God in their foreheads, the ones the locusts torment for 5 months, if anyone has the spirit of antichrist it would be these that don't have the seal of God in their forehead. Which then would equal men with the spirit of antichrist tormenting men with the spirit of antichrist. Which of course doesn't make sense since the text indicates they torment the men which have not the seal of God in their forehead, which logically means that if these locusts represent men with the spirit of antichrist, they obviously don't have the seal of God in their forehead, therefore, they should be tormenting themselves as well. The way to make this nonsensical interpretation of yours go away, the locusts are not meaning humans to begin with. Now it doesn't matter about having or not having the seal of God in one's forehead, since that would only be relevant to humans, not demons or whatever else these locusts might be meaning.

No no...

See...

The SMOKE of the locusts is the POWER of Satan from the pit that blocks the sun (light of the congregation) and the air (spirit of the church) being made DARKENED! Please understand with the wisdom of Christ... the image of the sun represents light. The church is made as the light to the world, bringing people into God's congregation. Many are called, few are chosen! Selah! And the air represents God's spirit. Now understand this, when God has finished sealing all of His Elect through the testimony of Two Witnesses, he will remove his restraining hand. This is when the locusts come out of the bottomless pit. But look closer, the smoke that the locusts bring both BLINDS and CHOKES those in the church as the false prophets and christs are making their way into God's congregation where its sins have reached to heaven, and God remembers her iniquities (Revelation 18:5). The smoke is an illustration of the power of Satan bringing the church to desolation, a judgment sent by God and a warning sign to His Elect of her impending judgment.

Rev 18:18-19
(18) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
(19) And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

See? This "smoke" of her burning is illustrating the church is falling under the power of Satan as a judgment of God BECAUSE of its iniquities. There will no one be made (spiritually) rich ANYMORE or find salvation ANYMORE because of the LOCUSTS from the smoke. They are the false prophets and christs coming with lying signs and wonders that deceive the elect. Joel Osteen is a good example and he is one of many locusts! God is using them and bring them into His Holy City but only specifically attack the court which is without the temple - the professed Christians! As it is written!

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The temple, the altar, and those who worship therein are the True Church with people sealed by God. The court which is without the temple represents those Christians who are only lip-serving God and not sealed of God. It is THIS court where God has allowed Satan and his armies of false prophets and christs (signifies Gentiles = unsaved) to come in and the result of that the holy city would be trodden underfoot for 42 months which is actually a short season of Satan ruling there.

Selah!
 
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5thKingdom

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One of the passages that needs to be harmonized is the one you're trying to interpret. And so far, you haven't presented any evidence they contradicts the meaning of "dead" or the meaning of "where our Lord was crucified", not to mention "lie in the street". I'm not saying there isn't a different meaning than the more straightforward one, but I have yet to see anything in what you've written to supper it, except your false appeal to yourself as an authority.


Really?
You have not seen anything to prove the Last Saints are ALIVE during the Great Tribulation (Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast)/
Here is your Biblical validation of that:


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same horn made war with THE SAINTS, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Do you now submit to the Word of God and acknowledge the Saints of the Fourth Beast/Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast
are ALIVE until the "Ancient of Days Came"?


LOL... I assume you agree with 1 Co 15 that the Last Saints are "changed" at the Lord's Return
and yet you remain in darkness about the Biblical FACT the Last Saints are ALIVE during the Great Tribulation
BEFORE the Lord Returns.



This is called "harmony of Scripture"
we cannot pretend to have Truth when we do not have "harmony of Scripture"


BTW... it is not a false appeal to authority to SHOW YOU THE TRUTH
If something I have said contradicts ONE VERSE of Scripture - then show that verse
When you cannot REFUTE anything I say then you act as a fool when you pretend it's MY doctrine
instead of the Gospel.

/
 
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Lost Witness

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Are you trying to mock God's Word? Please READ the Scripture and ask yourself a question:

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Did God make His servants' mouths on fire literally? And they spew fire on people and destroy them literally? Can you find an actual incident recorded in Bible? Of course, it did not occur the way you think if you have a carnal mind.

The fire the servants is OF THE LORD, something you do not seem to understand. See, it is God's Word in their mouths "as fire" that burns the people as if they were wood and they knew it not! Because they were under a strong delusion. That is God's judgment upon them through the mouths of His servants. Selah! As it is written:

Isa 42:25
(25) Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

I will give you an example of what is happening right now.

We should settle it in our hearts so that we speak the word of God in our mouths. Then (and only then) are we speaking with wisdom and truth. And when we do that, man cannot 'honorably' speak against it without speaking against God. For example, when you quote God word to word, someone may be able to say you're a false teacher, and he may say you have no love, and he may say you have read into it something else, but he cannot 'credibly' say that this is not what God has said without losing credibility.

This is a dilemma for false Christians, and so they usually take alternative paths and tactics. This is where the hatred and reviling and persecution come in. They will despise you for your truth, and distract from the words of God, ignore it altogether, change the subject with personal attacks, attempt to distort what God said by the dubious use of Hebrew or Greek, or use any number of other tactics to avoid 'receiving' the love of truth. Because they cannot gainsay nor resist what you quote word for word, lest they be seen as denying Christ. This is now they are being burnt by God! Get it?!?

Now, for example, if I say that God said that the wage of sin is death, no one can gainsay or speak against that (deny it), because it is 'directly' and word for word from the mouth of God, and not a "phrase" that I have coined or philosophy I have thought up myself. So if they want to argue this, they will have to 'deceitfully' use some of those other tactics. This is what Luke is speaking about.

Luk 21:15
(15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

They cannot speak against the truth. Testify to God's word, and it is a testimony against them as fire.

This prophecy in Luke (like all other prophecies) relates to all Christians at all times, but in the great tribulation period, it is particularly pertinent because it is the difference between those who endure and those who fall. When iniquity increases, the love grows cold and evil rules the world. We are to stand on the solid Rock of the "authority" of the word of God. It is the truth that no professed Christian can 'rationally' deny.

This warning was authoritative and applicable when it was written, and it is authoritative and applicable now, even though it's addressing the latter days and the end. It is similar to God saying the anti-christ was already working in the world when Paul was writing in 2nd Thessalonians 2, and yet was bound or restrained. In other words, Satan's power would be loosed sometime in the future, but his spirit was already still working in the world then. Likewise, this tribulation is normative (John 16:33) for believers since Pentecost, but at this time near the second advent, it will be greater in the sense that there will be much more of it. It is the 'lot' of every true Christian to be despised and accused of falsehood. Christ says woe unto you when all men speak well of you. Because that is a "sign" that you are not being faithful. So then what makes us different from any false gospel or teacher (which we know are accused of falsehood also) you may ask?

The difference is that every (bar none) false gospel ignores the scriptures, or takes them out of context, or reads something into them, or wrests/twists it in order to hold onto their false teachings or traditions. The true gospel, by contrast, is founded upon an ancient landmarks which is the Word of God. Without this defensible foundation settled in our hearts, we will end up with private interpretations and man-made gospels just as others.

When the accusers charge "real" Christians with falsehood, real Christians don't witness of historical archaeology, secular teachers, authors and nations, they witness to the testimony of scripture which says (not implies, not assumes, not privately interpreted to 'mean') what they have testified it does. It's called "the testimony of Christ" that we have.

They may persecute you, they may revile you, they may call you false teacher, but they cannot speak-against, nor resist.

And also that word translated "Resist" is a similar Greek word (anthistemi). From the words (anti) meaning against and (histemi) meaning to hold up or to stand. It is used in the sense of establishing. They will not be able to establish themselves against you, they will not be able to stand up against you because you quote God, and their false claims of being of God prevent them from calling His Word a lie. Of course, they still in heart deny it by 'spiritual osmosis,' but they can't speak out against it and call themselves Christian.

When Christ ascended to heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit of truth with Power for every one of us, that the false Christs and false accusers cannot speak against nor stand against. They may physically burn us at the stake, they may physically stone us to death, they may physically nail us to a tree, but they cannot stand against the word of God testified accurately.

The accusers are legion, and we should not answer their queries with vain philosophizing, humanistic reasonings, or the imaginations of our eyes, but with a mouth which the Lord has given us, and with wisdom which the Lord has bestowed upon us, and with a Word which is a two-edged sword, which no man can gainsay nor resist.

May the Lord who is gracious above us give us wisdom to discern truth.
how would me asking you a question regarding your interpretation be me mocking GODs word?
asked a question, been studying scripture since august of Last year,
seems being attacked for asking questions is a common thing on here,
not very edifying to say the least.

I'll Forgive you.


May The LORD Bless You and Keep You


Shalom aleichem
 
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5thKingdom

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5thKingdom said:
LOL...
the NATURE of the Great Tribulation is Satan and his Anti-Christ RULE over the Last Saints.
In fact, we are told they "give their Kingdom to the Beast"
Is this "news" to you?



Your interpretation does not mean they are Christians. You just call them Christians to satisfy some made up opinion.


That is correct, my words do not matter
THAT is why I always provide SCRIPTURE supporting my words.

The people we are talking about are not Christians (that includes both the "wheat and tares"..
The people we are talking about are the SAINTS (only the wheat)

Read what the BIBLE says...
and then submit to the authority of Scripture (not my authority)


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same horn made war with THE SAINTS, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


As I said above,
the NATURE of the Great Tribulation is Satan RULING over the Last Saints
THAT is what Dan 7:21-22 teaches... are you willing to submit to the Scripture
or will you REJECT the Word of God? Which is it?


/
 
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