Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

5thKingdom · Jan 24, 2023

DavidPT said:
What I always suggest doing is this. Whatever one takes something to mean, insert that into the text in order to see if it makes sense out of the text or whether it makes nonsense out of the text. And if it makes sense out of the text, one might be on the right track in that case. But if it makes nonsense out of the text, obviously, one is not on the right track in that case. Let's try that here, that the locusts represent the Saints of the Great Tribulation.

Or.. you could simply RESPOND to my comments, instead of ignoring them AGAIN

5thKingdom said:
The Locusts of Rev 9 represent the Saints of the Great Tribulation

(1) They appear AFTER Satan is loosened to RULE during his "Little Season" of Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast

(2) They are represented as BELEIVERS
(a) horses prepared for battle
(b) Crowns of gold on their heads
(c) Faces of men
(d) Hair of women
(e) Teeth like Lions
(f) Breastplates of Iron

AND they are RULED by the "king" who is the "angel of the Bottomless Pit".
It could not be MORE obvious WHO the Locusts represent... you just need to read the text.

DavidPT said:
And there came out of the smoke the Saints of the Great Tribulation upon the earth: and unto the Saints of the Great Tribulation was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Absolutely correct
Is it "news" to you that the PEOPLE living in the Revelation Beast
are the "wheat and tares" IN THE CHURCH during the Great Tribulation?

DavidPT said:
And it was commanded the Saints of the Great Tribulation that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

yes, the Gospel of the Saints does not harm the salvation of the saved "wheat" in the Great Tribulation
but only the unsaved "tares" that do not have the seal of God.

Was that too hard to understand?

DavidPT said:
And to the Saints of the Great Tribulation it was given that the Saints of the Great Tribulation should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and the Saints of the Great Tribulation torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

LOL.. why pretend?

The Saints of the Great Tribulation TORMENT the unsaved "tares" in the church...
but they do not "kill" them (as in death in Christ or salvation)

The Saints of the Great Tribulation are the Last Saints on earth...
those AFTER the Last Saint is saved. There is NO SALVATION during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.

So this understanding stands as Biblical...
whether you understand or not.

DavidPT said:
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

yes... MANY unsaved "tare" in the church WANT SALVATION as they hear the Gospel of the Locusts...
but salvation is not possible for them

The understanding remains Biblical
I hope you have something BETTER in store?

BTW... do you even understand the Locusts are preaching a Gospel?
Do you understand the Saints in the Great Tribulation preach a Gospel?
or is this major point a mystery to you of little understanding?

DavidPT said:
And the shapes of the the Saints of the Great Tribulation were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

And the Saints of the Great Tribulation had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

Yes...
WHY do you pretend that this is not spiritual language?
The whole passage uses spiritual language

Do you NOT UNDERSTAND the images used represent Believers?

(2) They are represented as BELEIVERS
(a) horses prepared for battle
(b) Crowns of gold on their heads
(c) Faces of men
(d) Hair of women
(e) Teeth like Lions
(f) Breastplates of Iron
AND they are RULED by the "king" who is the "angel of the Bottomless Pit".
It could not be MORE obvious WHO the Locusts represent... you just need to read the text.

DavidPT said:
The question then is, does that make sense of the text, or does it make nonsense of the text? Obviously, the latter.

Only if you pretend the horses/crowns/faces/hair/teeth/breastplates
Do NOT represent Believers...

I am sorry you lack that understanding but your lack of understanding means nothing.

And ONLY if you intentionally ignore they are ruled by Satan

Now... let me think...
Does the Bible teach that Satan RULES during the Great Tribulation?
Why yes it does.

I do not doubt that you THINK you know something.
But your really do not.

This exercise proves that again.

/

Derf · Jan 25, 2023

5thKingdom said:
5thKingdom said:
Yes, the Great Tribulation Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is saved
is after the Great Commission Kingdom (the A-Millennial Kingdom) BEFORE the Last Saint is saved

Read my comment again carefully.

I said the Great Commission is the A-Millennial Kingdom

meaning there is no LITERAL 1000 year reign

/

Ok, thanks for your patience in explaining to me. Do you think the bulk of Revelation is concerned what's happening during the Millennial reign of Christ or is the bulk during that tribulation timeframe? How long is the tribulation/little season? And what chapters apply to it?

5thKingdom · Jan 25, 2023

Derf said:
Ok, thanks for your patience in explaining to me. Do you think the bulk of Revelation is concerned what's happening during the Millennial reign of Christ or is the bulk during that tribulation timeframe? How long is the tribulation/little season? And what chapters apply to it?

Because you have been reasonable I will not explain the nature of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.

The Bible teaches the Great Tribulation consists of TWO separate and distinct periods... shown as:
TWO "Beasts" and TWO "Woes" and TWO "Trumpets" and TWO "heads/kings"

During the FIRST Revelation Beast, the 1st Woe, the 5th Trumpet and the 7th "head/king"
the Last Saints are "overcome" and RULED by the Anti-Christ of the Fourth Kingdom.
This period is called Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" because the
Last Saints "give their Kingdom to the Beast" [Rev 17:17]
See thread entitled "What is Daniel's Abomination"

After the 2300 days of Daniel's Abomination
THEN "the Sanctuary shall be cleansed" as the Last Saints "see" Daniel's Abomination
and they "flee to the mountains" of God

Mat 24:15-16
When ye [Last Saints] therefore SHALL SEE the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand [Rule] in the holy place [the Sanctuary of the Last Saints], (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

During the SECOND Revelation Beast, the 2nd Woe, the 6th Trumpet, the 8th "head/king"
the Last Saint REJECT the Anti-Christ ruling over them as they return to God alone.
That is HOW the Sanctuary is cleansed during the Second Beast...
culminating in the Last Saints being taken to God
during the "Final Harvest"

-----------

Again, this is information that remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints “shall understand” during
the “Time-of-the-End”. [Dan 12:8-10] The Lord has PROMISED the Last Saints “shall see all of these things” which
He foretold about the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast. [Mat 24: 15, 33] This is just part of the “mysteries”
God has PROMISED the Last Saints would preach – as the Seventh Trumpet “begins to sound”. [Rev 10:7-11]
In fact, the Bible contains several passages related to this event… the “Final Harvest” of “Wise Virgins”.

(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".

(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".

(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!

(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.

(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.4

So... here are five (5) passages talking about the Final Harvest of the Last Saints
BEFORE the Second Revelation Beast is destroyed.

/

Derf · Jan 25, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Bible teaches the Great Tribulation consists of TWO separate and distinct periods... shown as:
TWO "Beasts" and TWO "Woes" and TWO "Trumpets" and TWO "heads/kings

Well, somebody teaches it. Much debate ensues when someone tries to convince others whether the bible is actually teaching it.

Derf · Jan 26, 2023

5thKingdom said:
Because you have been reasonable I will not explain the nature of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.

The Bible teaches the Great Tribulation consists of TWO separate and distinct periods... shown as:
TWO "Beasts" and TWO "Woes" and TWO "Trumpets" and TWO "heads/kings"

During the FIRST Revelation Beast, the 1st Woe, the 5th Trumpet and the 7th "head/king"
the Last Saints are "overcome" and RULED by the Anti-Christ of the Fourth Kingdom.
This period is called Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" because the
Last Saints "give their Kingdom to the Beast" [Rev 17:17]
See thread entitled "What is Daniel's Abomination"

After the 2300 days of Daniel's Abomination
THEN "the Sanctuary shall be cleansed" as the Last Saints "see" Daniel's Abomination
and they "flee to the mountains" of God

Mat 24:15-16
When ye [Last Saints] therefore SHALL SEE the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand [Rule] in the holy place [the Sanctuary of the Last Saints], (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

During the SECOND Revelation Beast, the 2nd Woe, the 6th Trumpet, the 8th "head/king"
the Last Saint REJECT the Anti-Christ ruling over them as they return to God alone.
That is HOW the Sanctuary is cleansed during the Second Beast...
culminating in the Last Saints being taken to God
during the "Final Harvest"

-----------

Again, this is information that remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints “shall understand” during
the “Time-of-the-End”. [Dan 12:8-10] The Lord has PROMISED the Last Saints “shall see all of these things” which
He foretold about the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast. [Mat 24: 15, 33] This is just part of the “mysteries”
God has PROMISED the Last Saints would preach – as the Seventh Trumpet “begins to sound”. [Rev 10:7-11]
In fact, the Bible contains several passages related to this event… the “Final Harvest” of “Wise Virgins”.

(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".

(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".

(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!

(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.

(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.4

So... here are five (5) passages talking about the Final Harvest of the Last Saints
BEFORE the Second Revelation Beast is destroyed.

/

I think you're saying that the two witnesses are equatable with the last saints. How do you think they lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days And no one is allowed to bury them?

DavidPT · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
I think you're saying that the two witnesses are equatable with the last saints. How do you think they lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days And no one is allowed to bury them?

The fact none of the following is meaning in a literal sense, it might be safe to assume that what you brought up is not meaning in a literal sense either.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Is this meaning like a fire breathing dragon?

Maybe Revelation 11:5 should be understood in the sense the following is?

Jeremiah 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

None of this is meaning in a literal sense. Maybe it is something like this being how they devour their enemies per Revelation 11:5?

Derf · Jan 26, 2023

DavidPT said:
The fact none of the following is meaning in a literal sense, it might be safe to assume that what you brought up is not meaning in a literal sense either.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Is this meaning like a fire breathing dragon?

Maybe Revelation 11:5 should be understood in the sense the following is?

Jeremiah 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

None of this is meaning in a literal sense. Maybe it is something like this being how they devour their enemies per Revelation 11:5?

Yes, that is worth considering, just like Jesus is described with a sword coming out of His mouth.
Revelation 19:21 KJV — And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

But it might be simply that they can call down fire from heaven to kill their enemies. It would be strange that they due just from words coming out of their mouths. The words must mean something, and the people must be dying in some way.

5thKingdom · Jan 26, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The Bible teaches the Great Tribulation consists of TWO separate and distinct periods... shown as:
TWO "Beasts" and TWO "Woes" and TWO "Trumpets" and TWO "heads/kings

Derf said:
Well, somebody teaches it. Much debate ensues when someone tries to convince others whether the bible is actually teaching it.

It does not matter what "someone teaches"...
especially when the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH remains "closed-up" and "sealed"
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"

What matters is WHAT the Bible teaches

What I said above is a Biblical FACT
You only need to study the Bible to see that

If you disagree with WHAT I said
then provide SCRIPTURE that REFUTES my words.

Do not pretend that saying "much debate" somehow REFUTES my words... it does not

/

5thKingdom · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
I think you're saying that the two witnesses are equatable with the last saints. How do you think they lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days And no one is allowed to bury them?

They do not lay in the streets of Jerusalem

I have ALREADY addressed this with you
WHY do you intentionally ignore my posting
to present the SAME false doctrine?

As I showed you before
you are taking spiritual language as literal
when the CONTEXT is clearly spiritual

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called
Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Was the Lord crucified in Sodom and Egypt?

You must read the text carefully if you want to find Truth

/

5thKingdom · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
But it might be simply that they can call down fire from heaven to kill their enemies. It would be strange that they due just from words coming out of their mouths. The words must mean something, and the people must be dying in some way.

The phrase "calling down fire from heaven" is used in the NT and OT.
If you want to know what it means in Revelation you must FIRST
understand what it represents in the other usages

This is called "Bible Study"
we do not GUESS on the Biblical definition of words
we HARMONIZE those words with OTHER SCRIPTURE

Christian Theology 101
why is it "news" to you?

/

Derf · Jan 26, 2023

5thKingdom said:
5thKingdom said:
The Bible teaches the Great Tribulation consists of TWO separate and distinct periods... shown as:
TWO "Beasts" and TWO "Woes" and TWO "Trumpets" and TWO "heads/kings

It does not matter what "someone teaches"...
especially when the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH remains "closed-up" and "sealed"
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"

What matters is WHAT the Bible teaches

What I said above is a Biblical FACT
You only need to study the Bible to see that

If you disagree with WHAT I said
then provide SCRIPTURE that REFUTES my words.

Do not pretend that saying "much debate" somehow REFUTES my words... it does not

/

Does it help you to capitalize every other word? I find it distracting.

Derf · Jan 26, 2023

5thKingdom said:
They do not lay in the streets of Jerusalem

I have ALREADY addressed this with you
WHY do you intentionally ignore my posting
to present the SAME false doctrine?

As I showed you before
you are taking spiritual language as literal
when the CONTEXT is clearly spiritual

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called
Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Was the Lord crucified in Sodom and Egypt?

No, that's why I said they lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified. If you read my post carefully, that would have been clear (because I don't usually speak in figurative language).

So who is lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem? Is it the last saints? All of them?

Derf · Jan 26, 2023

5thKingdom said:
5thKingdom said:
The Bible teaches the Great Tribulation consists of TWO separate and distinct periods... shown as:
TWO "Beasts" and TWO "Woes" and TWO "Trumpets" and TWO "heads/kings

It does not matter what "someone teaches"...
especially when the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH remains "closed-up" and "sealed"
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"

What matters is WHAT the Bible teaches

What I said above is a Biblical FACT
You only need to study the Bible to see that

If you disagree with WHAT I said
then provide SCRIPTURE that REFUTES my words.

Do not pretend that saying "much debate" somehow REFUTES my words... it does not

/

As I said, just because somebody teaches it, doesn't make it a biblical fact, even if that somebody is you.

5thKingdom · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
Does it help you to capitalize every other word? I find it distracting.

If I did not have to RE-POST the same Scriptures over-and-over-and-over...

then I would not need to capitalize

however... after already covering this material many times

it is obvious that people are not reading for comprehension

or they are simply REJECTING what the Word of God clearly teaches

In any case

you NEED to have things capitalized

that is obvious

.

5thKingdom · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
As I said, just because somebody teaches it, doesn't make it a biblical fact, even if that somebody is you.

Sigh....

I have posted SCRIPTURE

I do not ask (or expect) you to believe my words

I expect you to believe SCRIPTURE

when you intentionally ignore or REJECT Scripture

then you MUST remain in darkness

It is just that simple

This is not hard

/

5thKingdom · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
No, that's why I said they lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified. If you read my post carefully, that would have been clear (because I don't usually speak in figurative language).

So who is lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem? Is it the last saints? All of them?

For the TENTH time...

where does the BIBLE (not your imagination)

say they lie dead in Jerusalem?

provide SCRIPTURE

.

5thKingdom · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
So who is lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem? Is it the last saints? All of them?

You have NEVER shown they lie in Jerusalem

AND now you pretend the Two Witnesses represent ALL the Saints?

Tell me buddy...

Were the Saints living in 50AD or 500AD or 1500AD
part of the Great Tribulation Kingdom?

You embarrass yourself with such nonsense

/

Derf · Jan 26, 2023

5thKingdom said:
You have NEVER shown they lie in Jerusalem

AND now you pretend the Two Witnesses represent ALL the Saints?

Tell me buddy...

Were the Saints living in 50AD or 500AD or 1500AD
part of the Great Tribulation Kingdom?

You embarrass yourself with such nonsense

/

I'm happy to be embarassed if it gets me closer to the truth.

I'm basing what I said on the verse you quoted:
Revelation 11:8 KJV — And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This tells us that the 2 witnesses, after they die, will lie in the street of the great city. The great city is spiritually likened to Sodom and Egypt, and is further described as "where our Lord was crucified." As far as I know, only Jerusalem can fit that last phrase, because Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.

So, can you tell me where you think I'm wrong in any of that?

TribulationSigns · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
Yes, that is worth considering, just like Jesus is described with a sword coming out of His mouth.
Revelation 19:21 KJV — And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

But it might be simply that they can call down fire from heaven to kill their enemies. It would be strange that they due just from words coming out of their mouths. The words must mean something, and the people must be dying in some way.

It is the Word of God that comes out of the mouth of the Lord that judges people. Not a literal sword.

Eph 6:17
(17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12
(12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Two Witnesses are anointed believers who have received the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel. It is God's Word that comes out of their mouth that judge people, too. As it is written:
Rev 11:3-5
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

It is NOT literal fire like some of you believe. The fire is the Word of the Living God which is the power that ALL Believers receive to prophesy!

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

God is not talking about fire-breathing witnesses, or fire-breathing dragon. The fire signifies God's Word being spoken out of the mouth of His servants! It it judgment upon those who do not receive the Love of the Truth.

Simple as that. We will understand better if and when we compare Scripture with Scripture rather than running after the imagination of men that belongs to Hollywood movies. Selah.

TribulationSigns · Jan 26, 2023

Derf said:
I'm happy to be embarassed if it gets me closer to the truth.

I'm basing what I said on the verse you quoted:
Revelation 11:8 KJV — And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This tells us that the 2 witnesses, after they die, will lie in the street of the great city. The great city is spiritually likened to Sodom and Egypt, and is further described as "where our Lord was crucified." As far as I know, only Jerusalem can fit that last phrase, because Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.

So, can you tell me where you think I'm wrong in any of that?

First, the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are NOT literally two men, two olive trees, or two covenants as most believe. They represent God's Holy people, the eternal indivisible Church who is faithful and elect. It is through "THIS" Church that God will show forth His judgment and prophecy. Per Revelation 11:4, God gave power to these two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days in mourning. This is a symbolic picture of the indivisible Church as it has been given the power to testify for this length of time. Moreover, so that there is no confusion about these being literally two men, God also enlightens us that these are the two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And that word standing is again the Greek word [histemi] illustrating they are able to stand with God by the support of Christ. They 'stand' before God and give assent to His will, His Word, and His purpose, because they are made righteous in Christ. We have our consistent and Biblical understanding of this imagery. These witnesses are a representation of God's Church, and specifically in this context, God's 'true Church' not the external covenant Church. They are those who are 'standing before the God of the earth,' importing that they were strengthened in Christ, faithful messengers who adhere to His cause and testimonies.

Second, the Great City is not physical Jerusalem but is a representation of the Church, which is the city of the great king. It is not the indivisible city itself, but the external Covenant Church is the earthly representation of the city of peace. This is the church where the true church (Two Witnesses) of God dwelled, and prophesied, Matthew 5:35, Galatians 4:26, Revelation 21:10. All believers are residents of "that great city" Jerusalem, and the external covenant church is the earthly representation of that Holy City. That is why you need to read Revelation 11:1-2 to find out why the court which is without the temple represents the external covenant church made up of professed Christians who will be handed over to Satan to be deceived when God judges her. This court is why the city has become SPIRITUALLY Sodom and Egypt.

The Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is why Jerusalem is used as a sign, figure or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers being dead or lifeless in the streets [plateia] or wide space of this great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan is ruling there, and the leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritually' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in the bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.

And God makes sure that we understand its relationship to this end-time event as He informs us that where the body of Christ (two Witnesses) is killed, is where our Lord was Crucified (Revelation 11:8). This is because the Church is intimately identified with the body of Christ as He is the Temple of God in which we live and breathe and have our being. We indeed are the Body of Christ. When they kill the two witnesses, they have in effect crucified Christ afresh. For inasmuch as they do it to Christ's Church, they do it unto Christ.

The overview of Revelation 11:8 is that God is illustrating that when the true witness of the Church is destroyed, the true believers who abide by God's law cannot by the Spirit of God teach the truth in the Church anymore. The spirit of Christ and that of satan cannot dwell together. The language of their dead bodies lying in the street where our Lord was Crucified, which is spiritual as Sodom and Egypt, is signifying Jerusalem. Sodom and Egypt illustrate that the city or Church has become abominable and lawless, and a house of bondage and persecution. It is full of abomination which shall leave this house desolate. It is no coincidence that God spoke of Old Testament Jerusalem (after they Killed Christ) as a house of bondage and as a city left desolate. And He gives the very same scenario of them having come against the Lord's servants and Christ.

Matthew 23:37-38

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Galatians 4:25

"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children."

As the fall of the Old Testament external congregation (symbolized by Jerusalem) was, so is the fall of this New Testament external congregation. It is a city that is in spiritual bondage like Egypt, and which has abomination stand in it as Sodom. It is a city that has the blood of the body of Christ, the servants of God, on their hands. This is just as Old Testament Jerusalem did! This verse is picturing the external covenant city of God where the body of Christ lies silenced and unloved. These are parallels inspired by God.

Therefore, Revelation 11 has nothing to do with 70AD or futurist physical Jerusalem where some people believe there will be two men with superpowers that literally spew fires on people. Please...leave this to the imagination of Hollywood.

Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

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