have a time question

[miamited]

The question I'm highlighting is what does "one day" mean in its concrete sense? "24 hours" is not a valid ancient answer - its like defining a pizza as 8 slices. The basic ancient measurement of time is the day - one period of night followed by one period of daylight, or something roughly similar.

Hi elbia,

No, I think a day is defined today just as it was 5-6 thousand years ago. One rotation of the earth upon its axis. You are correct that it has nothing to do with how that time is divided. A day would be the same length even if we were to change the way we divide the time of a day into 6 glibodneski's

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[ebia]

Hi elbia,

No, I think a day is defined today just as it was 5-6 thousand years ago. One rotation of the earth upon its axis. You are correct that it has nothing to do with how that time is divided. A day would be the same length even if we were to change the way we divide the time of a day into 6 glibodneski's

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

People 5000 years ago did not know the earth rotated. Even now people don't naturally define it that way outside of sci-fi films. A "day" is one period of night-dark followed by one period of daylight or something similar (the start-end point is arbitrary and can be dusk, dawn or midnight)

"Same length" is actually meaningless without something to measure against.

 

[miamited]

People 5000 years ago did not know the earth rotated. Even now people don't naturally define it that way outside of sci-fi films. A "day" is one period of night-dark followed by one period of daylight or something similar (the start-end point is arbitrary and can be dusk, dawn or midnight)

"Same length" is actually meaningless without something to measure against.

Hi ebia,

Well, you're probably forgetting that the author of the Scriptures is not people. When God desires to reveal something I don't think it really matters to Him what 'people' know or believe. As far as whether that is the generally accepted way that we determine a day, well, I would direct you to any book about the planets and research the lenght of a day on one and how that is determined.

The real problem may be that you have determined how the length of a day is determined and are unwilling to accept any other explanation because it makes your understanding wrong.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[ebia]

Hi ebia,

Well, you're probably forgetting that the author of the Scriptures is not people. When God desires to reveal something I don't think it really matters to Him what 'people' know or believe. As far as whether that is the generally accepted way that we determine a day, well, I would direct you to any book about the planets and research the lenght of a day on one and how that is determined.

Of course that's an astronomer's definition. But that's not how your average person on an average day thinks of a day.

And why on earth would you think God would use an ancient word in an ancient language spoken through an ancient people to an ancient people according to the 20th century western-scientific definition of an English word? What kind of cultural arrogance is that?

The real problem may be that you have determined how the length of a day is determined and are unwilling to accept any other explanation because it makes your understanding wrong.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I'm unwilling to apply anachronistic and culturally arrogant thinking to understanding the biblical text.

 

[iamauthentic]

Yes, it does. It says that there was evening and then morning each day.

not on the seventh day. there was no evening on the seventh day.

 

[Jamin4422]

Do you all think it was possible that the 7 day creation was not like our time and was possibly thousands of years

I think the Bible can represent more then one thing. A day was 24 hours, a day was also 1,000 years, a day was an age or a long period of time. They are all represented by what we read in the Bible. For example the flood. While we tend to believe the flood was a local flood, still clearly the implication is that flood was world wide. This is what we call shadows and types. Noah was a real person and the flood was literal. Yet this all represents something much greater. Something played out on a world wide scale. YEC's believe the beginning was 6,000 years ago. That is fine, but they disqualify themselves from dealing with anything that takes place before that point in time. If you want to talk about dinos then your going to have to be an OEC to do that.

 

[seekingsister]

Paul wrote that to God a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day. That seems like a fairly direct way of telling us that Genesis 1 is not intended to be understood as 7 24 hour days. And 1000 is not a fixed number, just like forgiving your brother 77 times is not a fixed number either. It's a way of saying that time to God is not the same as time to humans, just as God's forgiveness is also beyond human capacity. Considering Paul was a scholar of Jewish scripture I trust him on this point.

I am unconvinced by arguments that say it must be literally true because if not then God is a liar. No way. Jesus used parables to explain the Truth - just because the parables did not literally tell actual things that happened did not make them any less true. They are 100% true today just like they were 2000 years ago. In the same way God communicated to ancient prophets in ways that they could understood and that were true, not necessarily in literal descriptions. If God behaved that way then the book of Isaiah would have said "A baby will be born to Mary and Joseph at an inn, go there at 3 AM on this date and that's where the Messiah will be." God reveals the Truth in a different way than humans normally understand.

 

[pshun2404]

No, I disagree. If they aren't literal 24 hour days then God's word is not true and he is a liar. This is a matter of do we believe God and take him at his word or not.

No it's not a matter of that at all. Moses uses the word "yom" translated day in many ways even in Genesis...as a part of a day, as years, as an epoch of time, in Deuteronomy it is the same word for always and forever, so you cannot demand this is the only understanding it could possibly mean and that other possibilities are denying the word of God to be true.

OUR concept of evening and morning are dependent on a cycle of rotation of the earth in relation to the Sun...days one through three have neither. These are an evening and a morning from God's perspective in a language (which by the way are themselves mere symbols to allow us to comprehend) early man would be able to relate conceptually. They could just represent cycles from levels of darkness/ignorance/disorder to higher levels of light/intelligibility/and order.

Our concept of a day is likewise dependent on this same rotational association with a created Sun, which is not even created yet. Plus even IN creation a day here is far different than a day on Mars or Neptune. OUR "day" is a relative term. Guy in English means a young man, in Cantonese it means chicken, in Swahili it means dog...but it is still "guy" when uttered. We don't even have a word "yom" in our vocabulary.

Some early Christians taught the day unto the Lord theory (so 6,000 years). They were not wrong nor calling God a liar. Others believe it could be any indiscriminate length of time. Jewish philosophers discussed this (see Dr. Schroeder's The Age of the Universe).

Be careful of condemning others or saying because they understand differently that if true God's word is a lie. You may be offending Him.

In Christ

Paul

 

[diychristian]

If you want to talk about dinos then your going to have to be an OEC to do that.

Or go to any YEC sites and type in a search for dinosaurs and see how the YECs incorporate them into their worldview.

 

[diychristian]

No it's not a matter of that at all. Moses uses the word "yom" translated day in many ways even in Genesis...as a part of a day, as years, as an epoch of time, in Deuteronomy it is the same word for always and forever, so you cannot demand this is the only understanding it could possibly mean and that other possibilities are denying the word of God to be true.

So how did the plants created in the 3rd epoch survive till the 4th epoch when the sun was made?

So if the ancients believed in 6 literal days and today we believe in epochs, who's God is bigger? I mean...the ancients God could do it faster right?

 

[diychristian]

Paul wrote that to God a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day. That seems like a fairly direct way of telling us that Genesis 1 is not intended to be understood as 7 24 hour days. And 1000 is not a fixed number, just like forgiving your brother 77 times is not a fixed number either. It's a way of saying that time to God is not the same as time to humans, just as God's forgiveness is also beyond human capacity. Considering Paul was a scholar of Jewish scripture I trust him on this point.

How do we know "Paul" wasn't using allegory and not Genesis? Which one sounds like more of a report and which one seems like an abstract explanation?

So did Paul write the Psalms or Second Peter? Regardless I don't think the writer was talking about the age of the earth but more to the character of God.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Oh my, my, my. Comments such as this are why unbelievers find us a laughable lot.

Do you know what it is that determines a day?

Do you know what the term 'evening' and 'morning' describe?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

When you come to understand that Genesis is not history, but a narration, that nobody knew, that the Bible does not depict science, then you begin to understand. There is no contradiction between the Bible account, and scientific account, of how we came to the present day. The Bible does not tell us how the heavens go, and Science does not tell us how to get to heaven. Is the Genesis account of creation true? Absolutely. Is the universe billions of years old? Absolutely. Many places in Scripture, besides St. Paul, tell us that 1000 years are as a day to you, O Lord, and a day is 1000 years.

 

[John 1720]

But how could that be??? There was no sun or moon or stars to delineate morning from evening...

Correct, the solar day was not born until the 4th Day of creation asccording to Genesis.

Genesis 1:13 So the evening and the morning were the third day. :14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; :15 "and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. :16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. [He made] the stars also. :17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, :18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that [it was] good. :19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day

So if one presupposes that just evening and morning signifies a 24 hour solar day they are mistaken according to the Word of God. Can the earth sustain itself without the Sun? According to John via the Holy Spirit of God, "Yes!".

Rev 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb [is] its light.
Rev 22:5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

So what is the variation of time? It could be anything. Why not a fempto second or a nanosecond. After all isn't it by God's hand that the Universe was crafted and don't we speak of space-time continum. From Physics we know that time is a physical entity that also only came into being at the birth of the Universe. Since we weren't around to measure it, isn't is more appropriate that the telling (via the Holy Spirit) to Moses was in God days and not man days? Doesn't David tell us that our days are not God's days and vice versa? Sometime I think it can be rather arrogant of us to put God in our Box to say the way He measures days is equal our own?

Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight [Are] like yesterday when it is past, And [like] a watch in the night.

The New Testament also bears out that God view days differently than we do.

2 Pete 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So what exactly is a watch in the night? How many watches did they have in the evening? According to tyhe Gospels there were four.

Matt 4:25 Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out for fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid."

So breaking the Solar day in half we have a 12 hour night, in which there are 4 watches. They therefore have a period of 3 hours. If a thousand years = 3 hours in the Lord's time that is 8,000 years. But why should we assume the author is not speaking figuratively? I make no argument either way but this argument I do make according to Scripture. Each Day of the Lord's Creation had a purpose and that Day was not done until the Lord was completely satisfied with it according to His Will. If we look at the Days of Genesis we can see:

DAY#1 LET THERE BE LIGHT
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night.
So the evening and the morning were the first day.
DAY#2 HEAVENS FORMED
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
DAY#3 EARTH DIVIDED WITH WATERS & LAND
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb [that] yields seed according to its kind,
and the tree [that] yields fruit, whose seed [is] in itself according to its kind.
And God saw that [it was] good.
DAY#4 SUN & MOON - EARTH IN ORBIT
Gen 1:17-18 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,
and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness.
And God saw that [it was] good.
DAY#5 LIVING THINGS IN THE SEA - BIRDS OF THE AIR
Gen 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves,
with which the waters abounded, according to their kind,
and every winged bird according to its kind.
And God saw that [it was] good.
DAY#6 MAMMALS DURING THE FIRST PART OF THE DAY AND MAN DURING THE 2nd part of the 6th Day -> BOTH PROCLAIMED BY GOD AS GOOD
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind,
and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that [it was] good.
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle,
over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
So God created man in His [own] image; in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed IT WAS VERY GOOD.
So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
DAY#7 GOD RESTED HIS WORK
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.
:2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done,
and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Why does God not say and the 7th Day was Good or Very Good?
When did the 7th Day get finished according to the Bible?
What day did Man fall? That couldn't have been very good - could it?
Did God rest from His Works permanently on the 7th Solar Day if so, why does Jesus say that the Father is still working? When did God continue working or does resting His work mean something else entirely?

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

Why does Jesus say the Sabbath or the 7th Day was made for Man - not man for the Sabbath?

Mark 2:27 And He (Jesus) said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

I will only say the Bible is a deep Book and I do not expect to comprehend all God's Ways; for His ways and not our ways and His thoughts higher than ours.
I am, however content that His purposes shall be achieved and that at the end of the Day it will be very Good!
One last question.
What is the significance of the eighth day according to Jewish Custom and Mosaic Law?
Does it symbolize anything? If so what?
In Christ, Pat

 

[Brito]

The earth came into being about 4,540,000,000 years ago.

Man has only been around for something over 1,000,000 years.

If God created man on the sixth day, then we are only just up to day six, with days 756,666,667 years long, and God hasn't even rested on day seven yet.

Genesis is in part a creation myth probably dating back to the 11th century BCE., or if you believe in Mosaic authorship, 1,450 BCE. Accepting it as a creation myth does not mean that you have turned into an atheist. Accepting that parts of the Old Testament are illogical and unrealistic, should not shatter anyone's faith, or their appreciation of the important messages of the bible.

Brito.

 

[Juelrei]

Do you all think it was possible that the 7 day creation was not like our time and was possibly thousands of years

Why would the beginning of life happen in a bang of spontaneous power, then (for some unsatisfactory explanation) shift to evolving over thousands of years? When it could just as well from the first bang, continue in that spontaneous power to create, lasting over a short number of hours?

The speed of light still obeys that first spontaneous power. Not any adherence to an evolutionary slow pace.

 

[diychristian]

.

So if one presupposes that just evening and morning signifies a 24 hour solar day they are mistaken according to the Word of God. Can the earth sustain itself without the Sun? According to John via the Holy Spirit of God, "Yes!".

If God couldn't succinctly and definitely transmit an idea of creation, why even give us an account? I believe God delivered the account of creation in a manner in which we could understand and in a way that was truthful. I don't think God would tell this story to mankind and let them be deceived for thousands of years until the thought of long ages came along.

Since we weren't around to measure it, isn't is more appropriate that the telling (via the Holy Spirit) to Moses was in God days and not man days? Doesn't David tell us that our days are not God's days and vice versa? Sometime I think it can be rather arrogant of us to put God in our Box to say the way He measures days is equal our own?

I see the verse you are referring to as a testimony to God's character (His timelessness and how He is not affected by time) and not a reference to God having days or some tempral existence. So the phrase "God days" seems a little inapropriate.

The New Testament also bears out that God view days differently than we do.

Why does God not say and the 7th Day was Good or Very Good?
When did the 7th Day get finished according to the Bible?
What day did Man fall? That couldn't have been very good - could it?
Did God rest from His Works permanently on the 7th Solar Day if so, why does Jesus say that the Father is still working? When did God continue working or does resting His work mean something else entirely?

Perhaps the benediction from God "Good or Very Good" was directed more at the work that was performed and not so much the existence of the day itself. If that is so and God didn't create/work on that day then there would be nothing to proclaim as Good or Very good. In regards to the Father working- I can find no where in the Bible indicating that God retired or quit after creation just that He rested for a day and what God decides to do on His day off is His perogative (maybe He strolled through the Garden and talked with Adam and Eve, IDK)

 

[diychristian]

Accepting it as a creation myth does not mean that you have turned into an atheist. Accepting that parts of the Old Testament are illogical and unrealistic, should not shatter anyone's faith, or their appreciation of the important messages of the bible.

Brito.

I am always reticent on subjecting God's word to the authority of another be it science, philosophy or one's feelings, etc. When there is no clear answer from the Bible other authorities can be explored, but when those authorities are in contrast with God's word it should be approached respectfully and responsibly. Not like Galileo did and try to plow through theology and God's word. Other authorities can be a guide to Biblical exegesis but if its not evident in the text those claims should be marginalized until further confirmation.

Your brother in Christ
diychristian

 

[Leuko Petra]

Do you all think it was possible that the 7 day creation was not like our time and was possibly thousands of years

No, it is absolutely not possible for many, many reasons; for they were literal standard 24 hour consecutive days - for many, many reasons. If you would like some of those reasons, let me know.