Has this gone too far?

gracefullamb · Aug 10, 2012

A friend shared this article on Facebook: Western media concealing facts about female rock band.
ETA: warning the article details the past lewd acts and statements of these girls.

ArmyMatt · Aug 10, 2012

fschmidt said:
Maybe the problem is semantics. If I hire someone for a job, I am judging them. Judgment just means evaluating someone. In the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot case, I am evaluating them morally. To condemn just means to judge someone as immoral. By this definition, I condemn [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot. Are you using these words in the same way that I am?

Where in the Passion account does Jesus say that he can set himself free?

And returning to the practical question that concerns me, what do you think is a fair punishment for [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot? I am very disappointed to see Christians failing to stand up to defend their religion. If this had happened at a Mosque or Orthodox Synagogue, these women would have been beaten unconscious right then and there which would have been the appropriate response.

well, for a Christian, you can judge and condemn an action, but the judgment and condemnation of a person are for God and God alone. it is not our place to determine that kinda stuff.

Christ shows He can free Himself should He chose in Matthew's Gospel when He is in the Garden of Gethsemane.

well, I think if you equate beating a group of women into unconciousness with proper Christian defense of one's faith, you need to pay attention more at that Greek parish you are going to. because even a quick wikipedia search on how Orthodox Christians should respond to this is absolutely nothing with what you imply is appropriate.

fschmidt · Aug 11, 2012

ArmyMatt said:
well, for a Christian, you can judge and condemn an action, but the judgment and condemnation of a person are for God and God alone. it is not our place to determine that kinda stuff.

I think you are agreeing that this is semantic. But still, isn't evaluating a potential employee a kind of judgment of a person, not their actions?

well, I think if you equate beating a group of women into unconciousness with proper Christian defense of one's faith, you need to pay attention more at that Greek parish you are going to. because even a quick wikipedia search on how Orthodox Christians should respond to this is absolutely nothing with what you imply is appropriate.

I guess I should discuss this with my priest. Just to be clear, I am against offensive violence, I only support defensive violence as in protecting one's property which applies in the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot case. Christianity has a long history of using violence both defensively and offensively.

ArmyMatt · Aug 11, 2012

fschmidt said:
I think you are agreeing that this is semantic. But still, isn't evaluating a potential employee a kind of judgment of a person, not their actions?

I guess I should discuss this with my priest. Just to be clear, I am against offensive violence, I only support defensive violence as in protecting one's property which applies in the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot case. Christianity has a long history of using violence both defensively and offensively.

as for your first point, God does not judge on the same basis that we do, because only He can see the person's heart for eternity. so it is nothing like evaluating an employee.

Christians should not be for any kind of violence, even when violence is necessary (like war or whatever that cannot be avoided), it should never be something encouraged. Christianity has a long history of violence because Christians are still sinful and struggle with their faith. ideally, we face the violence of others as Christ did.

Rhamiel · Aug 11, 2012

gracefullamb said:
A friend shared this article on Facebook: Western media concealing facts about female rock band.
ETA: warning the article details the past lewd acts and statements of these girls.

what they did was blasphemy, and they should get in trouble
I just think sitting in jail for 6 months before they can even have a trial is rather excessive

rusmeister · Aug 11, 2012

fschmidt said:
The Russian people are almost evenly divided on this issue, and I assume most of those against [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot are laity of the Russian Orthodox Church. I assume the laity and clergy that you know are Americans which would explain their views.

If the moderators consider my posts here inappropriate, please move them to St Justin's sub-forum and I will restrict my posts to there.

Dear Mr Schmidt, (in itself an assumption)
How on earth do you think you know what the Russian people are divided over? Is it because the media told you? The same media that constantly slants reporting against faith in general?

What do you mean by "those against PR"? do you mean "favor long prison terms (as I think), or "disapprove of what they did"?
Everybody in the Church disapproves of what they did, and so do a LOT of people outside the Church.
About a dozen people in the world favor long prison terms, and the six that are not in the government have all been thoroughly interviewed and cast as being half of society to give the media something to report.

And FYI, I don't have hardly any American friends or acquaintances over here. A grand total of three who I never see. I live in Russia and am pretty much the only American in my community. You really should be careful in your assumptions. I won't even assume your name really IS Schmidt, unless you confirm it.

gurneyhalleck1 · Aug 11, 2012

Is there a news story we are actually allowed to believe? If we saw footage or genocides in Rwanda, Darfur, or Syria, would we believe them or should we think the footage is doctored with CGI? At what point would we accept a news story as valid or do you think it's a 100% conspiracy to lie to all of us? There are obviously bad newsreporters, lousy and biased stories we hear, and agendas to be had, but are we to be so paranoid that we can't trust anything the news has to say ever?

Rus, what does your not having any American friends and being so deeply isolated from all things American have to do with the rest of the post? That part eluded me...

I was reading about it online and according to the Kiev Post:

Moscow - Most Russians (79%) are more or less aware of the punk prayer performed by the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot band at Christ the Savior Cathedral in February 2012, and more than a third of them believe that the band members broke the moral rules, sociologists from the Levada Center told Interfax.
Almost half of respondents (53%) believe that citizens have the right to public protest against the Russian Orthodox Church's position on major social issues and criticize it but not in churches, according to the findings of a poll conducted among 1,600 people on July 20-23.
More than a third of respondents (38%) said that by staging the anti-Putin performance at Christ the Savior Cathedral, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot members rather violated the public moral rules than insulted the president (9%).

rusmeister said:
Dear Mr Schmidt, (in itself an assumption)
How on earth do you think you know what the Russian people are divided over? Is it because the media told you? The same media that constantly slants reporting against faith in general?

The Moscow Times:

According to the results of a poll released Friday by the independent Levada Center, 50 percent of Muscovites oppose criminal prosecution of the members of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot.
In a reminder of how the case has polarized society, a sanctioned rally Sunday that was billed as a defense of the chuch attracted hundreds of people, many holding icons and waving the nationalist tricolor. Two young women held a sign that said "Blasphemers should go to jail!"
Friday's decision was met with denouncements and lamentations from the opposition, which has made vehement calls for the women to be released, calling them political prisoners.
"This goes beyond blatant lawlessness. It's sadism. They're behaving like cannibals

The same poll (the 50% Levada Center poll) was cited in the London Times, etc.

Polls are subject to error and aren't flawless, but why should we not believe all polls and why isn't this at least a fairly reasonable position to say that, based on this particular poll, the country is divided in half more or less on this issue?

I don't think it's wise to believe everything one hears, but at the same time I also don't think it's reasonable to discount or sluff off any and every report the media makes either.

VTSIOM/Levada is widely-respected in polling and methodologies they employ in tapping into how the public feels, reacts, and thinks on different topics. Basically, they are accepted and liked by not only most news agencies across the world, but they also are used and watched with respect by the Russian government itself. And this poll they conducted backs up with the poster said about divisions.

I guess in the end my point is that, if one employs the paranoid "I don't trust anyone" approach, then no discussion, no debate, no conversation can really ever take place. Because in science discussions "Scientists are all liars and bums with agendas!" will inevitably kick in. With news, "all newsmen are atheists and liars and can't be trusted!" will be the argument. "I don't trust education!" and "I don't trust generals" and "I don't trust museum curators" will always be the argument. It's impossible to have a discussion with that approach.

My best friend never trusts any news unless it's filtered by Rush Limbaugh. My other buddy at work doesn't trust news unless it's on liberal MSNBC. I try to listen to both and others, look at the full context without soundbytes, take all polls into consideration and take a general average of all, trying to be holistic.

Rhamiel · Aug 12, 2012

who is doing the polling?
i do not trust the russian government at all, too many anti-government journalists have been killed, one was even murdered on Putins birthday
I would not be surprised if these women wind up murdered by the police latter

gracefullamb · Aug 12, 2012

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Is there a news story we are actually allowed to believe? If we saw footage or genocides in Rwanda, Darfur, or Syria, would we believe them or should we think the footage is doctored with CGI? At what point would we accept a news story as valid or do you think it's a 100% conspiracy to lie to all of us? There are obviously bad newsreporters, lousy and biased stories we hear, and agendas to be had, but are we to be so paranoid that we can't trust anything the news has to say ever?

Gurney is this part of the post in response to what Rus stated, along with the rest or because of the article I linked to? If it is because of the article, I posted it since several pondered if these girls had a history and this incident was just the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. Not sure if it the girls history of public sex acts, blasphemous statements and other disturbances has played any part in the anger directed at them but I could understand how such a history could lead some to say enough and become vindictive. That isn't right and I don't agree with the vindictive behavior but after reading the article I could see how some got to such a place.

rusmeister · Aug 12, 2012

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Is there a news story we are actually allowed to believe? If we saw footage or genocides in Rwanda, Darfur, or Syria, would we believe them or should we think the footage is doctored with CGI? At what point would we accept a news story as valid or do you think it's a 100% conspiracy to lie to all of us? There are obviously bad newsreporters, lousy and biased stories we hear, and agendas to be had, but are we to be so paranoid that we can't trust anything the news has to say ever?

Rus, what does your not having any American friends and being so deeply isolated from all things American have to do with the rest of the post? That part eluded me...

I was reading about it online and according to the Kiev Post:

Moscow - Most Russians (79%) are more or less aware of the punk prayer performed by the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot band at Christ the Savior Cathedral in February 2012, and more than a third of them believe that the band members broke the moral rules, sociologists from the Levada Center told Interfax.
Almost half of respondents (53%) believe that citizens have the right to public protest against the Russian Orthodox Church's position on major social issues and criticize it but not in churches, according to the findings of a poll conducted among 1,600 people on July 20-23.
More than a third of respondents (38%) said that by staging the anti-Putin performance at Christ the Savior Cathedral, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot members rather violated the public moral rules than insulted the president (9%).

rusmeister said:

Dear Mr Schmidt, (in itself an assumption)
How on earth do you think you know what the Russian people are divided over? Is it because the media told you? The same media that constantly slants reporting against faith in general?

Click to expand...

The Moscow Times:

According to the results of a poll released Friday by the independent Levada Center, 50 percent of Muscovites oppose criminal prosecution of the members of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot.
In a reminder of how the case has polarized society, a sanctioned rally Sunday that was billed as a defense of the chuch attracted hundreds of people, many holding icons and waving the nationalist tricolor. Two young women held a sign that said "Blasphemers should go to jail!"
Friday's decision was met with denouncements and lamentations from the opposition, which has made vehement calls for the women to be released, calling them political prisoners.
"This goes beyond blatant lawlessness. It's sadism. They're behaving like cannibals

The same poll (the 50% Levada Center poll) was cited in the London Times, etc.

Polls are subject to error and aren't flawless, but why should we not believe all polls and why isn't this at least a fairly reasonable position to say that, based on this particular poll, the country is divided in half more or less on this issue?

I don't think it's wise to believe everything one hears, but at the same time I also don't think it's reasonable to discount or sluff off any and every report the media makes either.

VTSIOM/Levada is widely-respected in polling and methodologies they employ in tapping into how the public feels, reacts, and thinks on different topics. Basically, they are accepted and liked by not only most news agencies across the world, but they also are used and watched with respect by the Russian government itself. And this poll they conducted backs up with the poster said about divisions.

I guess in the end my point is that, if one employs the paranoid "I don't trust anyone" approach, then no discussion, no debate, no conversation can really ever take place. Because in science discussions "Scientists are all liars and bums with agendas!" will inevitably kick in. With news, "all newsmen are atheists and liars and can't be trusted!" will be the argument. "I don't trust education!" and "I don't trust generals" and "I don't trust museum curators" will always be the argument. It's impossible to have a discussion with that approach.

My best friend never trusts any news unless it's filtered by Rush Limbaugh. My other buddy at work doesn't trust news unless it's on liberal MSNBC. I try to listen to both and others, look at the full context without soundbytes, take all polls into consideration and take a general average of all, trying to be holistic.

Gurney, it's not a question of being "allowed to believe". When you frame my words like that, it is the equivalent of twisting one's voice to make them sound unreasonable.

When everyone, everywhere in your home town, or state or land, in your direct personal experience is saying the same thing, and only a very few voices are trotted out to contradict it, then you have the tail wagging the dog (need I reference the film of the same name?). And the key point is that you have, in that case, a considerable body of direct personal experience to counter the pageants the media can concoct.

So that's the thing. I really do have a serious advantage over you in this matter. You cannot know as much about what is going on in Russia as I do. I can only know approximately what is going on in the US because I am a native who has spent over half my life there. I admittedly know less about anything going on locally than you do, because your personal experience in your locality outweighs mine.

There are many small quibbles - your use of the passive voice makes me ask "respected by whom?". The Moscow Times is completely run by enemies of the Church, and very much enemies of the Russian Church. I read it all the time, and am quite familiar with its editorial positions, especially on matters related to faith. All reports from it on things connected to the Church must be subjected to rigorous criticism.

As to fine points like "criminal prosecution", the question is framed wrong. Everyone is in complete agreement that the government's actions are wrong; you cannot find data that says 50% support continued imprisonment. Everyone agrees that some form of punishment was called for, community service being frequently mentioned, everyone is against ongoing imprisonment, the overwhelming majority agree that it was not cool to do it in church.... so where's the supposedly divided country?

It is not a matter of "not trusting anyone", it is a matter of using one's own brain and to stop trusting the media trusts to provide reporting of the truth that matters. They generally report the truths that don't matter. When the Church is involved, all honesty is abandoned. I'm somewhat surprised at your credulity towards the secular media on issues of faith. I commend getreligion.org to you as a site run by professional journalists that want to (somewhat futilely, in my view) restore good journalism to matters ofvfaith.

It seems that when you paraphrase me, you mistake me. Direct quotes will avoid that danger.

(Edit add): On being isolated from other Americans in Russia, I was answering Mr Schmidt on his comment:

I assume the laity and clergy that you know are Americans which would explain their views.

. That should have been obvious.

gurneyhalleck1 · Aug 12, 2012

Your post is great, except for your rudeness here. I'm fine with you finding my credulity perplexing, but the "obvious" comment is rude. We all miss something once in a while, even the education thread killer himself. I'd venture to say Chesterton, the source of all knowledge, probably made a mistake or two as well from time to time.

I don't have a total faith in the media. If you read my post carefully, you'd see that, Rus. I went out of my way to make that point. So I guess the obvious isn't so obvious to us both, eh? I made it clear that not ALL the news media's reports are lies and propoganda, but at the same time I also said that they can be very biased and dishonest in many cases. I guess I'm perplexed at your absolutism. You take total black and white positions on pretty much everything. It's usually an us vs. them in everything with the secular realm utterly devoid of any value at all in the least....science, news, education, everything is pretty worthless. What I said in my post is that one should be holistic. One should look at several news stories, look at the whole big picture and draw conclusions. Take in the church's statements, the reports of different papers and channels, listen to primary sources, be holistic.

I experienced the paranoia of Catholicism toward the media for years. There would be a priest molesting a grip of kids over years and years, systematic, damaging abuse. And what would the hardcore Catholic say on forums like these? "And you're going to believe the lamestream evil, biased, secular media? They're hell-bent on bringing down Mother Church! It's all lies!" Then days later the priest would admit it. hmmmmm. You might find the media evil and without value, but I won't go that far. And I think, Rus, all we need to do is have a brain to critically think and analyze the newsmedia's claims. When we get to the point that we utterly distrust everything they say in almost all circumstances, I think we've reduced ourselves to paranoia and that conspiracy theory X-Filesish mentality. I think that mode of thinking gives comfort to some.

There are tons of examples of media bias. We could write a 500 page thesis on it if we wanted and provide a plenitude of samples! But we could also write at length of the way the media has broken great stories that revealed corruption in government, scandals in churches/corporations/government, etc.

Take Wikileaks for example. The Vatican had egg on its face after those emails and other info was released. A conspiracy theoriest could easily say it was all fabricated. Perhaps the story on Obama with Fast and Furious was an attempt by ring-wingers within the news media to destroy the president and bring down Holder? The Left obviously has way more clought in the media and way more of a sphere of influence, but some of their reports are legit. Not all, some. So, if from my saying these things, you somehow conclude I'm brainwashed and believe EVERYthing the media has to offer, I don't know what to say.

I guess my final word would be, just because a paper has a bias against the Orthodox Church, does that then mean everything they say is a lie against it? Obvious answer imho is no. For you it would be yes. I wouldn't take everything with a grain of salt that they report, but I would be more critically-analyzing it for sure.

I don't happen to trust conservatives a lot, but I know that some things the Wall Street Journal say are true about Obama's agenda. I also don't have a great deal of love or faith in the Huffington Post or New York Times, but some of the stories they've broken are legit as well. Instant faith in the media is as big a fallacy, if you ask me, as instant paranoid rejection. But then again, I've already said this last time. As for quotes, I respond to your quotes, not one by one, but as a whole. When you say How on earth do you think you know what the Russian people are divided over? Is it because the media told you? The same media that constantly slants reporting against faith in general? I don't need to individually quote it back to you. You know what you said. And I responded at the top. As Marvel would say-- 'nuff said. This quote shows an intense lack of faith in anything the media said. I'm not butchering your intent, it's right there.

rusmeister said:
I'm somewhat surprised at your credulity towards the secular media on issues of faith.
It seems that when you paraphrase me, you mistake me. Direct quotes will avoid that danger.

(Edit add): On being isolated from other Americans in Russia, I was answering Mr Schmidt on his comment: . That should have been obvious.

GTAsoldier · Aug 17, 2012

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot has been found guilty today. They were sentenced to 2 years in prison. The Huffington post said that they were "motivated by religious hatred".

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot Trial: Feminist Punk Band Guilty Of Hooliganism, Motivated By Religious Hatred

MOSCOW — A Moscow judge sentenced three members of the provocative punk band [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot to two years in prison on hooliganism charges on Friday following a trial seen around the world as an emblem of Russia's intolerance of dissent.
The trial inspired a wave of small but raucous protests across Europe and North America in support of the feminist rockers, who have been dubbed prisoners of conscience by Amnesty International. Hundreds of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot supporters waiting outside the Moscow courtroom chanted "down with the police state" when the sentence was announced. Dozens were detained, including several opposition leaders.
The three women were arrested in March after a guerrilla performance in Moscow's main cathedral where they high-kicked and danced while singing a "punk prayer" pleading with the Virgin Mary to save Russia from Vladimir Putin, who was elected to a third term as Russia's president two weeks later.

- GTA

Dorothea · Aug 17, 2012

Yes. I just read about that. IMO, I do think they said sacrilegious and blasphemous things about God and His Mother in His Church, and that was a bit too much. But I don't know if 2 years in jail is the right punishment (although, I thought that was kinda lenient for the Russian courts, considering I'd read 5-7 years were more the average on these types of things). I do think 2 years community service would have been the correct thing to do, but I don't know the Russian courts, or its government, and if they even do community service there.

Protoevangel · Aug 17, 2012

Dorothea said:
Yes. I just read about that. IMO, I do think they said sacrilegious and blasphemous things about God and His Mother in His Church, and that was a bit too much. But I don't know if 2 years in jail is the right punishment (although, I thought that was kinda lenient for the Russian courts, considering I'd read 5-7 years were more the average on these types of things). I do think 2 years community service would have been the correct thing to do, but I don't know the Russian courts, or its government, and if they even do community service there.

Considering my American sensibilities, I would tend to agree with you.

It was wonderful to hear that the Russian Orthodox Church did request mercy for the girls: Russian church urges state to show 'mercy' to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot | Reuters

Mytheodos · Aug 17, 2012

interesting post i found from another site
The person comments about [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] riot, and MORE!

What the Judeo-globalist elites are most afraid of is Christianity(Orthodoxy).

The Jewish masses may be afraid of nationalists but not the Judeo-globalists. On the contrary, wherever it serves their goals they support all kinds of national fascists:
KLA in Kosovo, fiercly anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox national fascists in Western Ukraine (more specifically in Galicia), or even some anti-Putin nationalist freaks in the so-called Opposition in Russia.
One of the major anti-Putin activists in the so-called Opposition Boris Nemtsov (ethnicity Jewish) once boasted how diverse his group is as it includes extreme nationalists.
Recent events in Russia are the best proof that the Judeo-global elites real headache is the rebirth of Orthodox Church.
Among the great supporters of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot blasphemers are such individuals as Novodvorskaya, Nemtsov, Gozman, Gelman, Posner. All of them happen to be Jewish. Even their lawyer is Jewish.:o
Over the last two decades the Judeo-globalist elites have been waging a war against Orthodox Christianity.
One of their first victims was Serbia followed by a massive destruction of Orthodox churches in Serbias historical cradle Kosovo by Kosovo Albanian terrorists. The destruction of Yugoslavia did not just affect the Serbs in Serbia but also Orthodox Christians in Bosnia and Macedonia who are now constantly being harrassed by Albanian Muslims.
The recent developments in the Middle East which the media in the West love to call Arab Spring or Arab revolutions have been turning into a real autumn if not winter for the Middle Eastern Christians. Most Middle Eastern Christians belong to Eastern Churches the largest of which is the Orthodox Church.
Moreover, Alexandria in Egypt and Antioch in Syria are places where the Orthodox Patriarchs reside. They are thus some of the major centres of Orthodoxy.
Today these centres as well as the Christian believers in Egypt (Copts included) and Syria are being threatened by Salafist/Wahhabi fanatics who want to make Christianity illegal on their territory.
The fate of Iraki Christians is not any better. The country has become unlivable for Christians. Those who left Irak to find refuge in Syria are now facing the same fate in Syria.
Most of these so-called revolutions in the Arab world are as much a revolution as the Bolshevik Revolution was in Russia. They are movements orchestrated from outside.
The choreographers of these movements reside in New York, London, Tel Aviv, and additionally also Riyad, Ankara and Qatar, all of which are hostile to Christianity in general and Orthodox Christianity in particular.
Their major goal is to destroy Christianity, not nationalism, paganism or neo-paganism etc

Dorothea · Aug 17, 2012

Protoevangel said:
Considering my American sensibilities, I would tend to agree with you.

It was wonderful to hear that the Russian Orthodox Church did request mercy for the girls: Russian church urges state to show 'mercy' to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot | Reuters

Yes, I'd heard about that. That is definitely good news.

gracefullamb · Aug 17, 2012

Dorothea said:
Yes. I just read about that. IMO, I do think they said sacrilegious and blasphemous things about God and His Mother in His Church, and that was a bit too much. But I don't know if 2 years in jail is the right punishment (although, I thought that was kinda lenient for the Russian courts, considering I'd read 5-7 years were more the average on these types of things). I do think 2 years community service would have been the correct thing to do, but I don't know the Russian courts, or its government, and if they even do community service there.

Protoevangel said:
Considering my American sensibilities, I would tend to agree with you.

It was wonderful to hear that the Russian Orthodox Church did request mercy for the girls: Russian church urges state to show 'mercy' to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot | Reuters

Initially I felt the same way as both of you about any punishment beyond community service being excessive but I have since changed my mind. I have read several articles now that have chronicled the history of these girls protests (including the one I linked to). The articles lay out a pattern of these girls first protesting outside a location, then protesting inside the location and finally committing perverse sexual acts inside the location in front of an audience. That shows a pattern of escalation each time their behavior is ignored, it shows that ignoring them makes them bold and willing to step it up some. This is a pattern I admit worries me of what would they do once these acts no longer garner them the attention they seek. I don't think that community service would have done them much good to be honest with the kind disregard they have shown thus far.

Dorothea · Aug 17, 2012

gracefullamb said:
Initially I felt the same way as both of you about any punishment beyond community service being excessive but I have since changed my mind. I have read several articles now that have chronicled the history of these girls protests (including the one I linked to). The articles lay out a pattern of these girls first protesting outside a location, then protesting inside the location and finally committing perverse sexual acts inside the location in front of an audience. That shows a pattern of escalation each time their behavior is ignored, it shows that ignoring them makes them bold and willing to step it up some. This is a pattern I admit worries me of what would they do once these acts no longer garner them the attention they seek. I don't think that community service would have done them much good to be honest with the kind disregard they have shown thus far.

I may have not expressed myself well. I meant I'd have changed the two years to community service. Personally, and this is me who has no background or training as a lawyer or judge or knows anything about the Russian system (so my opinion is kinda worthless ), but since we're sharing our thoughts, I was thinking 6 months to a year in jail would have been right for them.

gracefullamb · Aug 17, 2012

Dorothea said:
I may have not expressed myself well. I meant I'd have changed the two years to community service. Personally, and this is me who has no background or training as a lawyer or judge or knows anything about the Russian system (so my opinion is kinda worthless ), but since we're sharing our thoughts, I was thinking 6 months to a year in jail would have been right for them.

Well that makes both our opinions worthless then since I am just as unfamiliar with their legal system. Yeah, that is what I thought you meant, that instead of 2 years jail time they should do 2 years community service. Initially I felt the time served in jail and community service would be just. Now that I have read the entire history of their behavior escalating with each unchallenged act I am conflicted on it. I am now leaning more toward additional jail time doesn't feel so excessive and community service seems kind of pointless in light of their past sociopath like behavior.

Brooklyn Knight · Aug 17, 2012

gracefullamb said:
Well that makes both our opinions worthless then since I am just as unfamiliar with their legal system. Yeah, that is what I thought you meant, that instead of 2 years jail time they should do 2 years community service. Initially I felt the time served in jail and community service would be just. Now that I have read the entire history of their behavior escalating with each unchallenged act I am conflicted on it. I am now leaning more toward additional jail time doesn't feel so excessive and community service seems kind of pointless in light of their past sociopath like behavior.

They've done other things?

Has this gone too far?

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