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Apparently I didn't remember (and got my chronology confused). I'll admit....this is all new study for me.....I'm still wobbly on dates.
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Apparently I didn't remember (and got my chronology confused). I'll admit....this is all new study for me.....I'm still wobbly on dates.What Josephus said was the abomination of desolation had nothing to do with any temple being destroyed. Remember?
Do you have a source for a quote of Josephus that states the temple was destroyed in 167 BC?According to Josephus, antiquities of the Jews, the abomination of desolation was a pig being sacrificed in 167 bc. No temple was destroyed in 167 bc.
Now if Josephus is right and reported the facts as you say then Jesus would be wrong.
Do you have a source for a quote of Josephus that states the temple was destroyed in 167 BC?
I see that was the time of the first Maccabean Revolt....and that did result in Antiochus banning sacrifices in the Temple.
From Westmont college:
"Second Temple Judaism: A Brief Historical Outline--Part Three" Second Temple Judaism: A Brief Historical Outline--Part Three
3.1. The Maccabean Revolt and the Hasmonean Dynasty [167-37 BCE]
167 Antiochus IV issues a decree abolishing Jewish religion.
1 Macc.2:29-38: a band of rebels hiding in the desert are attacked on the Sabbath. They refuse to defend themselves and are slaughtered.
- He defiles the temple (1 Macc. 1:54-59; 2 Macc. 6:2-5; Dan. 11:31).
- He tortures those who refused to comply.
- Mattathias, an old priest in Modein, N.W. of Jerusalem, refuses to cooperate, kills an idolatrous Jew and flees with his five sons: John, Eleazar, Judas, Jonathan, Simon.
- The Maccabean revolt (and the Hasmonean dynasty) begins. See 1 Macc.2:15-28.
On the zeal of Phinehas, see Num.25:6-15; Psm.106:28-31; Sir.45:23-24; 1 Macc.2:27, 54.
1 Macc.2:39-41: Mattathias and company determine to fight even on Sabbath--they would break the Torah for the sake of Torah.
It was an end to their religion for a time.According to Josephus, antiquities of the Jews, the abomination of desolation was a pig being sacrificed in 167 bc. No temple was destroyed in 167 bc.
Now if Josephus is right and reported the facts as you say then Jesus would be wrong.
It was an end to their religion for a time.
From link:
The abomination that causes desolation is a term used in the Bible to refer to both the Maccabean Wars in Daniel 11:31 and the Jewish War at the end of the age in the remaining verses. During the Maccabean Wars of the second century B.C., the Greeks attacked Jerusalem causing a great slaughter in the city. The Greeks then set up an idol of Zeus (2 Macc 6:1-2) and sacrificed a pig in the Temple in Jerusalem (1 Macc 1:59; Wars 1.1.2).Prophecy Paradox: The Care for a First Century End Time, 2nd ed., revised (Concord, CA: Son Mountain Press, 2002), 73." title="" aria-describedby="qtip-0" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; outline: none; color: rgb(33, 117, 155);">1 This act is referred to as “a desolating sacrilege” in 1 Macc 1:54 and “the abomination that causes desolation” in Daniel 11:31."The Abomination that Causes Desolation Explained - Revelation Revolution" The Abomination that Causes Desolation Explained - Revelation Revolution
"Desolate" is in reference to the lack of the presence of God. Jerusalem wasn't without humans in 30 AD either....when Jesus said this:Jerusalem was never desolate(without humans,) in 167 bc
2 Maccabees 6 GNT - The Jews Are Persecuted Because of - Bible GatewayIt was a false commontary y by the Pharisees and taught to Josephus.
"Desolate" is in reference to the lack of the presence of God. Jerusalem wasn't without humans in 30 AD either....when Jesus said this:
Matthew 23:37-38
(Luke 13:31-35)
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h
There is only one “age of the gentiles” in the Bible’s prophecy. It is the age of the four gentile empires named and therefore dated in scripture. Babylon, Medo\Persia, Greek and Roman. The Roman Empire ended in 1453AD when what had been its capitol since 333 AD, Constantinople was conquered and the last Roman emperor killed. These empires ruled over, conquered and oppressed both the old and New Testament saints.[Luk 21:24 NASB] 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
[Rom 11:25 NASB] 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
I've seen a lot of prophecy lately that talk about new eras and that the time of the Gentiles has ended (the church age). What are the thoughts of people here on that?
Lana Vawser:
I HEARD THE LORD SAY “PROPHETS I AM INVITING YOU INTO A DEEPER PLACE OF UNDERSTANDING MY WAYS IN THIS MOMENT FOR THE NEW ERA AND MIGHTY SHIFT TAKING PLACE NOW. IT’S IMPORTANT TO LISTEN MORE THAN YOU SPEAK RIGHT NOW”
Not according to Jesus. He said Jerusalem was desolate in 30 AD (and it was then destroyed due to the corruption in 70 AD).Jerusalem will not be desolate till the abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem.
They're in agreement.Who are you going to believe, Jesus or josephus?
Not according to Jesus. He said Jerusalem was desolate in 30 AD (and it was then destroyed due to the corruption in 70 AD).
Matthew 23:37-38
(Luke 13:31-35)
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h
They're in agreement.
First off....2 Maccabees is part of our church literature:Are you saying the Pharisees were correct and Jesus was wrong?
Both can not be right.
The Pharisees taught it was fulfilled in 167 bc.
Jesus taught it was yet to happen.
Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),
Who are you going to believe, Jesus or josephus?
First off....2 Maccabees is part of our Bible
"2 Maccabees 1 GNT - A Letter to the Jews in Egypt - From - Bible Gateway" 2 Maccabees 1 GNT - A Letter to the Jews in Egypt - From - Bible Gateway
The Maccabean Revolt did happen in 167-160 BC....and Daniel had written about it.
Jesus was tying the future (to His listeners) destruction in 70 AD to the past....when the Temple had been defiled. Luke was more clear about what those in the first century were to look for:
Luke 21:20 ~ “And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived.
when the Lamb soon returns and straightens out this eschatological mess, the church has immersed herself in.
I agree....everything we believe has to be reconciled with the words of Jesus....and Jesus said the following about the timeframe (and Tacitus and Josephus confirm that Jesus was absolutely right). So....are modern-day futurist teachers the ones to believe.....or are the words of Jesus the Truth? My faith is in the Words of Jesus.Jesus was speaking of the actual abomination of desolation. Jesus can not lie.
Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),
I agree....everything we believe has to be reconciled with the words of Jesus....and Jesus said the following about the timeframe (and Tacitus and Josephus confirm that Jesus was absolutely right). So....are modern-day futurist teachers the ones to believe.....or are the words of Jesus the Truth? My faith is in the Words of Jesus.
Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you that this generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place
No....it's not "this age" that i believe has ended.....but I believe the Old Sinai Covenant age has ended (which is what Jesus and His disciples were speaking of) .You believe this age has ended. Most people don't.
No....it's not "this age" that i believe has ended.....but I believe the Old Sinai Covenant age has ended (which is what Jesus and His disciples were speaking of) .
The removal of the Temple and the entire Sinai religious system is proof to me of that.
That's prophetic Hebrew apocalyptic language. It's throughout the old testament....mostly describing God's coming in judgment against nations. One example of a fulfilled prophecy that demonstrates this is when Saul's kingdom was destroyed and David was vindicated.I don't recall Josephus ever saying the stars fell from the sky or anything the like.
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